Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Bester]

What's this timer in the bottom left corner?

 

[Thonius]

Still is not known how much content, quests, NPCs and companions is missing in this EA area.

I got kinda bored pretty fast, so cannot comment. But I heard that it is 20~25 hours. 4 levels? Allegedly a shit ton of lines and one Larian level aka chapter.

 

[conan_edw]

What's this timer in the bottom left corner?

Probably the seconds until the formed surface go away.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Before PS:T, RPGs -- even Infinity-engine RPGs -- were primarily about combat, traps, navigating tricky dungeons, building an adventuring party, etc., and their plots were essentially hero journeys about defeating a demon or dragon of some kind. After PS:T, RPGs are primarily about dialogue, lore, building a debating society/salon, and their plots typically subvert heroic tropes and explore an guilt-ridden protagonist overcoming his inner demons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallout_(video_game)

Release October 10, 1997

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planescape:_Torment

Release December 12, 1999

 

[MRY]

Yes, the contrast between FO (a game about combat, traps, navigating tricky dungeons, building an adventure party [to a mild degree], going on a hero journey, and defeating a mutant king) and later RPGs is exactly what I'm talking about. There are certainly still some post-PST games you could identify, most of which were in development pre-PST or continuation of pre-PST franchises (e.g., Arcanum, Icewind Dale 2). But by 2020, all major party-based RPGs are built from the model of Avellone's magnum opus, and generally they are written by his proteges.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes, the contrast between FO (a game about combat, traps, navigating tricky dungeons, building an adventure party [to a mild degree], going on a hero journey, and defeating a mutant king) and later RPGs is exactly what I'm talking about. There are certainly still some post-PST games you could identify, most of which were in development pre-PST or continuation of pre-PST franchises (e.g., Arcanum, Icewind Dale 2). But by 2020, all major party-based RPGs are built from the model of Avellone's magnum opus, and generally they are written by his proteges.

and all of them are garbage

 

[jungl]

idk the game is very basic. Its basically sword coast legends with better graphics.

 

[MRY]

That doesn't diminish his influence though. My point is that BG3 is an "Avellonean RPG" -- made by people he taught along the lines he established. That's why I don't understand people questioning his influence.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

RPGs are primarily about dialogue, lore, building a debating society/salon, and their plots typically subvert heroic tropes and explore an guilt-ridden protagonist overcoming his inner demons.

Exactly which RPGs are supposedly "primarily about" this? Are we looking at a different genre?
If I go down a list of bigname RPGs made in the past 15 years I really struggle to find any that fit this.

 

[The_Mask]

Why are we bringing MCA up into this conversation?

 

[Reinhardt]

Lots of girls played elf archers in lineage 2, both light and dark. I think only dorf lolis were more popular.

If you think those were actual girls and not G.I.R.L.s, I have a bridge to sell you.

I know some of them in real life, so nope.

 

[Shadenuat]

It's actually a problem because developers lost focus of what makes D&D game a D&D game, and what was, at least good in say IE games:

dungeons
monsters
loot

they are now struggle to understand how to not put too many +1 weapons into the game and consistently fail at all these areas, yet, fundamentals of the game and 90% of time you spend in them is about Them, not talking with Ravels.
even my favorite Kingmaker completely failed me, utterly and completely, in Loot. (and barely passes in Monsters; has some ok dungeons, but not Durlag anyway)
and yet, it has million dialogue of chapters for every fucking companion even if they are not even that interesting.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

chris avellone invented rpg writing
any rpg with a story is due to avellone

 

[Shadenuat]

Avellone was inspired by JRPGs himself

 

[Thonius]

It's actually a problem because developers lost focus of what makes D&D game a D&D game, and what was, at least good in say IE games:

dungeons
monsters
loot

they are now struggle to understand how to not put too many +1 weapons into the game and consistently fail at all these areas, yet, fundamentals of the game and 90% of time you spend in them is about Them, not talking with Ravels.
even my favorite Kingmaker completely failed me, utterly and completely, in Loot. (and barely passes in Monsters; has some ok dungeons, but not Durlag anyway)
and yet, it has million dialogue of chapters for every fucking companion even if they are not even that interesting.

How it failed you with loot? Anyhow I think because of the amount of options/classes devs gotta make sure that every class gets at least something. So they drop the loot all around you.
It's controversial opinion: survival element + hard weight cap must be put in the RPG's. So you cannot horde loot and you gotta get food. So instead of +1 swords enemy is going to drop apples + mundane sword. Add time limits redesigned in a new fashion (separate topic on how to implement meaningful time-limits and not to fuck player in the arse). Basically keep some sort of reward for player and cock-blocking his power-trip at the same time keeping game low magic.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It's actually a problem because developers lost focus of what makes D&D game a D&D game, and what was, at least good in say IE games:

dungeons
monsters
loot

they are now struggle to understand how to not put too many +1 weapons into the game and consistently fail at all these areas, yet, fundamentals of the game and 90% of time you spend in them is about Them, not talking with Ravels.
even my favorite Kingmaker completely failed me, utterly and completely, in Loot. (and barely passes in Monsters; has some ok dungeons, but not Durlag anyway)
and yet, it has million dialogue of chapters for every fucking companion even if they are not even that interesting.

How it failed you with loot? Anyhow I think because of the amount of options/classes devs gotta make sure that every class gets at least something. So they drop the loot all around you.
It's controversial opinion: survival element + hard weight cap must be put in the RPG's. So you cannot horde loot and you gotta get food. So instead of +1 swords enemy is going to drop apples + mundane sword. Add time limits redesigned in a new fashion (separate topic on how to implement meaningful time-limits and not to fuck player in the arse). Basically keep some sort of reward for player and cock-blocking his power-trip at the same time keeping game low magic.

first release of kingmaker had awful loot, they fixed it up a bit with the first re-release

 

[Shadenuat]

How it failed you with loot?

too much
too powerful
>>> too unbalanced
too often you get it just before enemy you want to use it on (retarded placement)
little connection to narrative or quests (make armor of skin from dragons ass) hence never feels like you earned it
16 pieces artifacts > utterly retarded just play BG2 ffs

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

chris avellone invented rpg writing
any rpg with a story is due to avellone

Like BaK and Ultima IV to VII.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

How it failed you with loot?

too much
too powerful
>>> too unbalanced
too often you get it just before enemy you want to use it on
little connection to narrative or quests (make armor of skin from dragons ass) hence never feels like you earned it

biggest example is that OP as shit bow in the troll keep that coincidentally completely destroys trolls right after they gave you an incredibly powerful ranger who uses bows.

 

[Shadenuat]

biggest example is that OP as shit bow in the troll keep that coincidentally completely destroys trolls right after they gave you an incredibly powerful ranger who uses bows.

there is also new pwhnammer against undead near door to cyclops undead tomb.

there were things like that in BGs, modders actually created options to make it more reasonable (remove flame arrows from troll keep)

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Yes, the contrast between FO (a game about combat, traps, navigating tricky dungeons, building an adventure party [to a mild degree], going on a hero journey, and defeating a mutant king) and later RPGs is exactly what I'm talking about. There are certainly still some post-PST games you could identify, most of which were in development pre-PST or continuation of pre-PST franchises (e.g., Arcanum, Icewind Dale 2). But by 2020, all major party-based RPGs are built from the model of Avellone's magnum opus, and generally they are written by his proteges.

PST didn't invent it though, it was merely a good implementation of it. It wasn't a very popular game at the time of release either, so I don't think it was really emulated. Look at BG: barely any stat checks in the dialog.

I would actually blame NWN for the popularity of this dialog system more than any other game, since it was extremely popular. And while NWN was probably influenced by PST, it only emulated very shallow aspects of it. Most of it was the usual hero's journey you spoke of with romances tacked on, as was BG. NWN mainly imitated (shallow and pointless) stat checks in dialog.

And speaking of popularity, it's just a model that proved popular. Nothing particularly innovative about it and you can't say that Avellone invented it.

In truth, "the Avellone model" has its roots in CYOA writing and stuff like the CYOA in games like POE really show that.

And other models were tried - daggerfall/morrowind's wiki dialog, which was a lot like older games, for example. The problem is that they failed to catch on by comparison.

 

[The_Mask]

I would actually blame NWN for the popularity of this dialog system more than any other game, since it was extremely popular. And while NWN was probably influenced by PST, it only emulated very shallow aspects of it. Most of it was the usual hero's journey you spoke of with romances tacked on, as was BG. NWN mainly imitated (shallow and pointless) stat checks in dialog.

We're all fucked when crazy-ass Lambchop speaks sense. This game looks a lot more like a TB NWN to me, rather than any sort of BG or P:T.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

I would actually blame NWN for the popularity of this dialog system more than any other game, since it was extremely popular. And while NWN was probably influenced by PST, it only emulated very shallow aspects of it. Most of it was the usual hero's journey you spoke of with romances tacked on, as was BG. NWN mainly imitated (shallow and pointless) stat checks in dialog.

We're all fucked when crazy-ass Lambchop speaks sense. This game looks a lot more like a TB NWN to me, rather than any sort of BG or P:T.

NWN and Morrowind were ultimately the wellspring of most of the decline we see today.

 

[Poseidon00]

I appreciate the fact that there is an option for non lethal damage. A failed roll doesn't mean that you have to kill an innocent.

 

[Poseidon00]

PST didn't invent it though, it was merely a good implementation of it. It wasn't a very popular game at the time of release either, so I don't think it was really emulated. Look at BG: barely any stat checks in the dialog.

I would actually blame NWN for the popularity of this dialog system more than any other game, since it was extremely popular. And while NWN was probably influenced by PST, it only emulated very shallow aspects of it. Most of it was the usual hero's journey you spoke of with romances tacked on, as was BG. NWN mainly imitated (shallow and pointless) stat checks in dialog.

And speaking of popularity, it's just a model that proved popular. Nothing particularly innovative about it and you can't say that Avellone invented it.

In truth, "the Avellone model" has its roots in CYOA writing and stuff like the CYOA in games like POE really show that.

And other models were tried - daggerfall/morrowind's wiki dialog, which was a lot like older games, for example. The problem is that they failed to catch on by comparison.

Shallow and pointless? Play a low int character in the OC and everyone treats you like a retard. Play a low Cha character and everyone treats you like the ugly freak you are.

I think stats being important is one of the few things it did right.