Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Early Access Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Harthwain]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

 

[Thac0]

Taken

Did you just bend vigilante self justice into lawfull neutral? Law and Order in DnD (as derived from 3 hearts 3 lions) is all about following hierarchies, being a vigilante is the epitome of chaotic.
I agree with neutral overall, because DnD pretty clearly has egoism as evil and altruism as good, and his actions can't easily be sorted into either. Also good and evil in DnD is pretty gay in the first place, the alignment system was more coherent in its initial form as only Chaos and Law.
But a vigilante clearly has to be chaotic, since he ignores the natural order of the world to impose his sense of justice onto it. Very close to a rebel in that sense.

 

[Desiderius]

Authority should be the tag for LG (altruism lol). You make the game you make the rules. Good is creative, evil destructive. The most fundamental creation being the Law itself.

 

[Desiderius]

Neeson’s (LG) stock character never kills randomly, it’s always lawbreakers and evildoers, and always in response never to take out an imminent threat or some horseshit.

 

[Yosharian]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

 

[Yosharian]

Taken

Did you just bend vigilante self justice into lawfull neutral? Law and Order in DnD (as derived from 3 hearts 3 lions) is all about following hierarchies, being a vigilante is the epitome of chaotic.
I agree with neutral overall, because DnD pretty clearly has egoism as evil and altruism as good, and his actions can't easily be sorted into either. Also good and evil in DnD is pretty gay in the first place, the alignment system was more coherent in its initial form as only Chaos and Law.
But a vigilante clearly has to be chaotic, since he ignores the natural order of the world to impose his sense of justice onto it. Very close to a rebel in that sense.

I did, and it is.

The natural order of the world is that people who behave in the way that those evil fucks do, eventually get their shit kicked in, that is karma, and very very much the natural order of things.

The point here is that there is a gulf a mile wide between someone like Neeson's character in Taken and, say, the Punisher. "All vigilantism is Chaotic" is a reductive line of thinking.

 

[Thac0]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

DnD alignment is not a real morality system, and it would be foolish to confuse it for one. The only thing decent about it is the Chaos/Order split, and that is stolen straight from the Greeks.
As a game system it clearly used to mean adherence to the local law. And as such it has to be interpreted.
That surely leads to stupid outcomes, as DnD alignment is not good ethics. But that is not a goal of the system in the first place.

 

[Yosharian]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

DnD alignment is not a real morality system, and it would be foolish to confuse it for one. The only thing decent about it is the Chaos/Order split, and that is stolen straight from the Greeks.
As a game system it clearly used to mean adherence to the local law. And as such it has to be interpreted.
That surely leads to stupid outcomes, as DnD alignment is not good ethics. But that is not a goal of the system in the first place.

I disagree.

Again, an elementary way to destroy your argument is to simply point out that in the world of D&D, LAWFUL is something that applies to the GODS themselves. If what Lawful actually means varies wildly from place to place, as it does with your assertion about 'local law', then a given God being Lawful is utterly meaningless. Because gods transcend the physical realm.

 

[Sarathiour]

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

And ?

Lawfulness is before all the belief that something transcending sentiment and emotion is needed for any form of civilisation. Because people have different idea of what's a civilisation supposed to looke like, so are law going to be different.

 

[Yosharian]

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

And ?

Lawfulness is before all the belief that something transcending sentiment and emotion is needed for any form of civilisation. Because people have different idea of what's a civilisation supposed to looke like, so are law going to be different.

I.e. the rule of reason and logic

Which is what I said Law is

 

[Thac0]

I disagree.

Again, an elementary way to destroy your argument is to simply point out that in the world of D&D, LAWFUL is something that applies to the GODS themselves. If what Lawful actually means varies wildly from place to place, as it does with your assertion about 'local law', then a given God being Lawful is utterly meaningless. Because gods transcend the physical realm.

Bro there is nothing to counter. It is arbitrary bullshit made up by game rules and Gygax's mind. It does not have to hold up to logical scrutiny.

This is PHB 1st edition, shortly after Good and Evil was introduced to the axis. This is authoritative on what alignment means.
You can (and should) make your own system of ethics which is more complicated than this, but shoehorning it into the terms of childrens games will ultimately just do you harm.

 

[Yosharian]

Yes definitely look at prehistoric 1st edition alignment descriptions as opposed to the up-to-date ones on FR Wiki that perfectly mirror what I'm saying

 

[Sarathiour]

I.e. the rule of reason and logic

Which is what I said Law is

No, this is gross oversimplification. They are built upon this, but will always diverge at some point, because reason and logic are complex metaphysical concept that D&D never had the audacity to tackle.

 

[Sarathiour]

okay, so according to you, what alignement is jubilost ?

 

[Harthwain]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

Star Trek would be a good counterpoint - while laws can vary wildly the usual position for the Starfleet was to respect traditions and laws of other cultures/races. You could find few exceptions (such as Picard rebelling against having Wesley killed in "Justice" episode in Season 1), but such exceptions prove the rule.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

okay, so according to you, what alignement is jubilost ?

Gnome

 

[rusty_shackleford]

BG3 is so amazing that the codex can't stop talking about it even when nothing new releases for months

 

[NJClaw]

BG3 is so amazing that the codex can't stop talking about it even when nothing new releases for months

The last time anyone talked about BG3 probably was 379 pages ago.

 

[Larianshill]

What the fuck is BG3?

 

[Desiderius]

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

And ?

Lawfulness is before all the belief that something transcending sentiment and emotion is needed for any form of civilisation. Because people have different idea of what's a civilisation supposed to looke like, so are law going to be different.

I disagree.

Again, an elementary way to destroy your argument is to simply point out that in the world of D&D, LAWFUL is something that applies to the GODS themselves. If what Lawful actually means varies wildly from place to place, as it does with your assertion about 'local law', then a given God being Lawful is utterly meaningless. Because gods transcend the physical realm.

Bro there is nothing to counter. It is arbitrary bullshit made up by game rules and Gygax's mind. It does not have to hold up to logical scrutiny.

This is PHB 1st edition, shortly after Good and Evil was introduced to the axis. This is authoritative on what alignment means.
You can (and should) make your own system of ethics which is more complicated than this, but shoehorning it into the terms of childrens games will ultimately just do you harm.

It is neither arbitrary nor bullshit. If you read Appendix N you’ll be running laps around your illiterate peers, and not just on questions of morality.

 

[Yosharian]

okay, so according to you, what alignement is jubilost ?

Which acts should I judge him by?

 

[Yosharian]

It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument

Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.

Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.

Star Trek would be a good counterpoint - while laws can vary wildly the usual position for the Starfleet was to respect traditions and laws of other cultures/races. You could find few exceptions (such as Picard rebelling against having Wesley killed in "Justice" episode in Season 1), but such exceptions prove the rule.

Give me some time to think about that

 

[Desiderius]

okay, so according to you, what alignement is jubilost ?

You misspelled Jewbilost, goy.

He should be True Neutral just like the rest of the tribe.

 

[Sarathiour]

You misspelled Jewbilost, goy.

He should be True Neutral just like the rest of the tribe.

Nowhere near lawful in any case.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

What the fuck is BG3?

It's like PG13 but for Bears.