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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 by Larian Studios - now available on Early Access

Discussion in 'Larian Studios' started by Infinitron, Oct 6, 2020.

  1. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    You must be joking.
     
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  2. Larianshill Scholar

    Larianshill
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    I'm dead serious.
     
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  3. Reinhardt Arcane

    Reinhardt
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    Caution is evil? Like relaxing around some racesancestries?
     
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  4. Alienman Arcane Patron

    Alienman
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
    Maybe something to do with not taking risk saving your fellow man in a dicey situation?
     
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  5. fork Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    fork
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    No. Caution = critical thinking = bad/evil.
     
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  6. Larianshill Scholar

    Larianshill
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    I'm gonna be honest, tying those tags to the alignment feels really tacked on. There were no hints that they somehow related to the alignment even in the latest EA release, tags were just listed in order - so this shit was added together with the pronouns.
    Which reinforces my point about alignment being unnecessary. Is "violence [evil]" better than "violence", if no substance beneath the name is changed?
     
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  7. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    My interpretation:

    Good is simply performing actions which benefit the majority of people, especially if it involves self-sacrifice. Neutral is principally self-interest, either personal or for one's tribe. Evil is sadism/cruelty.

    Killing another person isn't an inherently evil act in my opinion because there could be good reason to do it - it depends on the intent and motivation. In this case the morality is grey but in general I don't think killing = automatically evil.

    Lawful is having a reasoned, logical, purposeful approach. Chaos is acting on impulse, emotion, passion, what feels good or right. And then there are those who strive to find a balance between the two.

    Killing one man to save all those people could be viewed as a Good act because it benefits the majority, but the man is currently innocent so it is a grey area. As a result I would say it's more Neutral than Good, but I would give leeway depending on the player's stated intent.

    It's a Lawful act because it is a reasoned, logical argument - killing him will save innocent lives. Preventing him from being killed because it feels wrong to take one person's life to save another, is definitely Chaotic. The logic on this is clear - one person's life is worth nothing compared to hundreds or thousands of lives.

    However the waters are muddied somewhat if the one person is innocent and the others are not, or vice versa
     
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  8. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    For example in the movie Taken, Liam Neeson goes on a killing spree to save his daughter. The goons he kills are involved in the trafficking of young women for the purposes of selling them as sex slaves, prostitution, etc. Not a single one of these goons is innocent, they all deserve death for what they've done (Lawful). But his actions are principally taken to save his daughter, rather than to save all those other women (Neutral, not Good). When he tortures that fellow to find the location of his daughter, he's walking a pretty fucking thin line, but it's justified - just about - because this guy is an evil cunt and he's unwilling to give up the information. It's not until he leaves the guy to be tortured until the electricity runs out, for no other reason than he hates him, that Neeson performs a truly Evil act (It's also arguably Chaotic). But overall his actions that day are Lawful Neutral.
     
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  9. Harthwain Cipher

    Harthwain
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    Lawfulness depends is acting in accordiance with the law, not reason or logic as such. It could be dura lex sed lex.
     
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  10. Thac0 JRPG ambassador Patron

    Thac0
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    Did you just bend vigilante self justice into lawfull neutral? Law and Order in DnD (as derived from 3 hearts 3 lions) is all about following hierarchies, being a vigilante is the epitome of chaotic.
    I agree with neutral overall, because DnD pretty clearly has egoism as evil and altruism as good, and his actions can't easily be sorted into either. Also good and evil in DnD is pretty gay in the first place, the alignment system was more coherent in its initial form as only Chaos and Law.
    But a vigilante clearly has to be chaotic, since he ignores the natural order of the world to impose his sense of justice onto it. Very close to a rebel in that sense.
     
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  11. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Authority should be the tag for LG (altruism lol). You make the game you make the rules. Good is creative, evil destructive. The most fundamental creation being the Law itself.
     
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  12. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Neeson’s (LG) stock character never kills randomly, it’s always lawbreakers and evildoers, and always in response never to take out an imminent threat or some horseshit.
     
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  13. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    Incorrect. That's what I used to think, too, but it doesn't hold up to examination.

    An easy way to counter this line of thinking is to point out that laws vary wildly from state to state, different religions, cultures, etc.
     
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  14. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    I did, and it is.

    The natural order of the world is that people who behave in the way that those evil fucks do, eventually get their shit kicked in, that is karma, and very very much the natural order of things.

    The point here is that there is a gulf a mile wide between someone like Neeson's character in Taken and, say, the Punisher. "All vigilantism is Chaotic" is a reductive line of thinking.
     
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  15. Thac0 JRPG ambassador Patron

    Thac0
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    DnD alignment is not a real morality system, and it would be foolish to confuse it for one. The only thing decent about it is the Chaos/Order split, and that is stolen straight from the Greeks.
    As a game system it clearly used to mean adherence to the local law. And as such it has to be interpreted.
    That surely leads to stupid outcomes, as DnD alignment is not good ethics. But that is not a goal of the system in the first place.
     
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  16. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    I disagree.

    Again, an elementary way to destroy your argument is to simply point out that in the world of D&D, LAWFUL is something that applies to the GODS themselves. If what Lawful actually means varies wildly from place to place, as it does with your assertion about 'local law', then a given God being Lawful is utterly meaningless. Because gods transcend the physical realm.
     
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  17. Sarathiour Learned

    Sarathiour
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    And ?

    Lawfulness is before all the belief that something transcending sentiment and emotion is needed for any form of civilisation. Because people have different idea of what's a civilisation supposed to looke like, so are law going to be different.
     
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  18. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    I.e. the rule of reason and logic

    Which is what I said Law is
     
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  19. Thac0 JRPG ambassador Patron

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    Bro there is nothing to counter. It is arbitrary bullshit made up by game rules and Gygax's mind. It does not have to hold up to logical scrutiny.
    [​IMG]
    This is PHB 1st edition, shortly after Good and Evil was introduced to the axis. This is authoritative on what alignment means.
    You can (and should) make your own system of ethics which is more complicated than this, but shoehorning it into the terms of childrens games will ultimately just do you harm.
     
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  20. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    Yes definitely look at prehistoric 1st edition alignment descriptions as opposed to the up-to-date ones on FR Wiki that perfectly mirror what I'm saying
     
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  21. Sarathiour Learned

    Sarathiour
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    No, this is gross oversimplification. They are built upon this, but will always diverge at some point, because reason and logic are complex metaphysical concept that D&D never had the audacity to tackle.
     
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  22. Sarathiour Learned

    Sarathiour
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    okay, so according to you, what alignement is jubilost ?
     
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  23. Harthwain Cipher

    Harthwain
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    Star Trek would be a good counterpoint - while laws can vary wildly the usual position for the Starfleet was to respect traditions and laws of other cultures/races. You could find few exceptions (such as Picard rebelling against having Wesley killed in "Justice" episode in Season 1), but such exceptions prove the rule.
     
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  24. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Gnome
     
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  25. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    BG3 is so amazing that the codex can't stop talking about it even when nothing new releases for months
     
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