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Game News Baldur's Gate 3 Community Update #21: Forging Your Legacy

Non-Edgy Gamer

Grand Dragon
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Could you give some examples of why you think AD&D rules are better than D&D 5e?
https://www.wargamer.com/dnd/alignment-rules-changes
https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-negative-race-ability-score-modifiers/
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/2...ies-in-a-woke-clumsy-attempt-to-fight-racism/
https://www.wired.com/story/dandd-must-grapple-with-the-racism-in-fantasy/
https://www.dndbeyond.com/classes/paladin
As guardians against the forces of wickedness, paladins are rarely of any evil alignment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corellon_Larethian
The 2018 rule book Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes introduced the "blessed of Corellon" characteristic which allows player character elves to change their sex any time they take a "long rest" (a mechanic which is at least eight hours of in-game rest).[3] This ability for players and 5th edition's affirmation that "you don't need to be confined to binary notions and gender,"
https://screenrant.com/dungeons-dragons-combat-wheelchair-disabled-representation-tabletop-rpg/
With Candlekeep Mysteries featuring a wheelchair-compatible adventure, and Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft having characters in wheelchairs, it's becoming more common even in official Dungeons & Dragons content

It's the rules, it's the lore, it's everything. 5E is completely tainted by politics and pandering to the lowest common denominator. It's a dumbed down retcon of 2E's rules and lore, with a simplified version of 3E's spreadsheet bullshit slapped on top.

It's not only that 2E is better, it's that 5E is so much worse in so many ways that any positives that might be there aren't worth it.
 
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Deathhappens

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Being able to undo choices so easily kinda defeats the purpose of those choices in the first place. Not to mention the consequences. Experimenting with different character types is one of the main reasons to replay games. Sad. I'm anti respecc period, but if you allow it it should be REALLY HARD AND REALLY EXPENSIVE. But, hey, choices don't matter in this game where they brag you get lots of choices that 'matter'. LOL Yet, they cna't make a basic character choice stick. L0L
I agree in principle, but it really depends on how often you can respec in this case, and I think respec in general is needed in modern D&D.

I'm against this modern spreadsheet RPG trend that 3e started and Paizo has kept alive, and it makes respec necessary for anyone who doesn't plan out their build in detail beforehand.

Forget normies, any FUNCTIONAL ADULT, who has a job, a family, or who values his time in the slightest, doesn't want to have to restart 20 hours of game play because he just realized he's FUBAR'd his build.
Or a FUNCTIONAL ADULT can just come to terms with not being a hyper-optimised menace and play the game with the character they made.
 

Volourn

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If you are so retartet that if you have to restart because you fukked up character creation, you don't deserve to live let alone play. If you don't have time to play then dont fukkin' play.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Or a FUNCTIONAL ADULT can just come to terms with not being a hyper-optimised menace and play the game with the character they made.
Strawman. Not about hyper-optimization, but some level of optimization. Especially for new people. A total newbie can ruin their character in a number of ways, especially with multiclassing in a low-level campaign.

Why force someone who's probably playing their first D&D game to play with a screwed up character? To be "hardcore"? A DM would have mercy on a newbie while they're still learning, so the game should too - within reason.
 

Zeriel

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Being able to undo choices so easily kinda defeats the purpose of those choices in the first place. Not to mention the consequences. Experimenting with different character types is one of the main reasons to replay games. Sad. I'm anti respecc period, but if you allow it it should be REALLY HARD AND REALLY EXPENSIVE. But, hey, choices don't matter in this game where they brag you get lots of choices that 'matter'. LOL Yet, they cna't make a basic character choice stick. L0L
I agree in principle, but it really depends on how often you can respec in this case, and I think respec in general is needed in modern D&D.

I'm against this modern spreadsheet RPG trend that 3e started and Paizo has kept alive, and it makes respec necessary for anyone who doesn't plan out their build in detail beforehand.

Forget normies, any FUNCTIONAL ADULT, who has a job, a family, or who values his time in the slightest, doesn't want to have to restart 20 hours of game play because he just realized he's FUBAR'd his build.

Fuck off. I have a full time job with overtime and I still don't get this mentality. What is the POINT of spending whatever tiny amount of free time you have playing a game if whatever you're doing is meaningless? That's what these "time-saving" design choices achieve. You might as well not play the game at that point. If your schedule is so limited it requires a game to be warped into uselessness, just don't play games.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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Fuck off. I have a full time job and I still don't get this mentality.
Because you've been playing RPGs for 10+ years. Most people haven't. Most people don't.

Most people don't even finish a game once, let alone learn how to play it properly *before* playing it.

How does it affect you if someone respecs their character? How does it affect you if someone turns the difficulty slider down?

Get over it.
What is the POINT of spending whatever tiny amount of free time you have playing a game if whatever you're doing is meaningless? That's what these "time-saving" design choices achieve. You might as well not play the game at that point. If your schedule is so limited it requires a game to be warped into uselessness, just don't play games.
Do you think save games or respawning should be allowed in games? Why or why not?

I'm betting you think they should. And I'm betting it's because you don't want to waste time ironmanning every game out there.

Just don't play games though, yeah. :roll:
 

Zeriel

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Fuck off. I have a full time job and I still don't get this mentality.
Because you've been playing RPGs for 10+ years. Most people haven't. Most people don't.

Most people don't even finish a game once, let alone learn how to play it properly *before* playing it.

How does it affect you if someone respecs their character? How does it affect you if someone turns the difficulty slider down?

Get over it.
What is the POINT of spending whatever tiny amount of free time you have playing a game if whatever you're doing is meaningless? That's what these "time-saving" design choices achieve. You might as well not play the game at that point. If your schedule is so limited it requires a game to be warped into uselessness, just don't play games.
Do you think save games or respawning should be allowed in games? Why or why not?

I'm betting you think they should. And I'm betting it's because you don't want to waste time ironmanning every game out there.

Just don't play games though, yeah. :roll:

For the latter, depends on the game. If the game's design supports it, it's fine for it to be ironman only. If it's just tacked on on top with no design consideration, then I consider it not really worth the time they spent implementing it. For example, ironman in XCOM in awesome. Ironman in random RPGs and other games thrown on at the last second to hit a checkbox of "we have hardcore mode!!!" that were never in development meant to be played that way is pretty dumb.

I don't think broad build options & rerolling your builds on a whim are reconciliable design goals. Especially when the classes represent actual identities. This is also my bone to pick with the proliferation of splash builds. A character with 5 classes's identity is diluted so hard it starts to make it hard to write a story around them. Which just makes me assume if a game allows this + respeccing there is no story around your identity, and hence roleplaying is meaningless. Which can be fine in games where you would expect no agency over the story or no roleplaying, but in a game specifically advertising roleplaying starts to make me ask questions like, "Are the devs lying?"
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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For the latter, depends on the game. If the game's design supports it, it's fine for it to be ironman only.
And that's my point. The design and the ruleset are the problem. It's a 100+ hour cinematic game where you can screw up your build very easily if you're a new player.

This is not a roguelike. This is not a random D&D campaign with friends. You cannot simply die, reroll a new character and continue the campaign with a wink from the DM. The design makes features like respecing and savegames almost a necessity, especially for newer players.

You didn't need a feature like this in BG1, since it was 2e and very simple. What were you going to respec besides weapon proficiencies or thief skills? And when were you going to do it even if you needed to? Probably the early game, at about 5 or 10 hours max. Not a big hit if you just restart, and frankly, the game was so easy and builds were so straightforward you probably wouldn't need to.

Mostly the same with BG2, although I could see a justification there. Unless you picked a sorcerer or were unwise enough to hit the dual-class button, you were probably going to be fine no matter how you built your character. Apart from proficiencies, everything was on rails until TOB, and even there, there weren't a lot of either-or choices for HLAs.

I don't think broad build options & rerolling your builds on a whim are reconciliable design goals.
It depends on how it's implemented. We have no word on how many times you can do this for free (that I can recall, at least).

It's likely a one and done option, since otherwise you make class meaningless and people will just respect 100x to get all the quests etc. Don't have high CHA? Just respec and then reverse it after whatever dialog choice. That's not a charitable interpretation of the feature to say the least. This is hardly the first game to allow respecing, and I've not seen any of the other games that do allow it do it that way, so I'm not sure why anyone would assume it, other than "Larian bad". And if that is how it is, then, yes, that's stupid, but no, it doesn't make respecing in general a bad feature to have in a game like this.

This is also my bone to pick with the proliferation of splash builds. A character with 5 classes's identity is diluted so hard it starts to make it hard to write a story around them. Which just makes me assume if a game allows this + respeccing there is no story around your identity, and hence roleplaying is meaningless.
Multiclassing is gay and dumb, yes, we can agree here. 2E mitigated it a bit with the rules around dual-classing and multiclassing, but then 3E came along and ruined everything. This is half of what I was complaining about.

"Are the devs lying?"
Again, not a charitable interpretation at all.

This is a 5E game built for the masses. The devs, and WotC, want people to "have fun" - ie, larp whatever they want and not get bogged down by restrictive rules. That's why they did the appallingly stupid thing of removing attribute restrictions from multiclassing (I expect this will get patched out when they see how many games it ruins on day one). That's why Wizards told them not to implement an alignment system, even when the characters themselves seem like they were written to have alignments. That's why Wizards made all those changes in 5E I linked at the top of the page. That's probably why (and I'm guessing Wizards asked them to) they removed specific racial attribute bonuses and gave races a flat +2 to spend.

They aren't lying, the roleplaying still exists, it's just watered down. It's watered down by 5E and it's watered down by trying to market the game to clownworld. But it's not a lie to say it exists.
 
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Deathhappens

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Or a FUNCTIONAL ADULT can just come to terms with not being a hyper-optimised menace and play the game with the character they made.
Strawman. Not about hyper-optimization, but some level of optimization. Especially for new people. A total newbie can ruin their character in a number of ways, especially with multiclassing in a low-level campaign.

Why force someone who's probably playing their first D&D game to play with a screwed up character? To be "hardcore"? A DM would have mercy on a newbie while they're still learning, so the game should too - within reason.
Not in 5e you can't. You would have to literally bend the system in two and actively TRY to make a character perform significantly worse than average. Ironically, by ditching the stat requirements for multiclassing Larian themselves lowered the barrier for fuck ups a bit (since single-classing is usually the best choice for most builds, assuming you're not trying to be a smartass with coffeelock or whatever, which is impossible in game anyway), but you would still have to try pretty damn hard.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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since single-classing is usually the best choice for most builds, assuming you're not trying to be a smartass with coffeelock or whatever, which is impossible in game anyway
As a non-5E player, I had to look up coffeelock and found this quote confirming its legality:
Yep, that works. Similarly, a paladin/warlock can use warlock slots for Divine Smite. Warlocks have so few slots on purpose!

— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) May 7, 2015
paladin/warlock
:hmmm:

I hate 5E so much it's unreal.
 

MrBuzzKill

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It's the rules, it's the lore, it's everything.
Thanks for the clarification. I honestly didn't know a lot of differences between editions. I mostly don't like 2e's THAC0/AC system which, even though it's ironically in all my favorite d&d-based RPGs, not intuitive in my opinion
 

MrBuzzKill

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This is a 5E game built for the masses
See, this statement (while I wholly agree with it) sticks out to me, because wheelchair/LGBTQ/furry/whatever representation is for the minorities, yet Larian concern themselves with indulging it. I honestly would really like to know what percentage of these minorities are going to be actual players of the game, compared to the classic stereotype of gamer (white, male, etc).
I guess it boils down to "Yes, they are a minority, but no longer such a tiny and silent minority that they're incapable of becoming a marketing disaster if their needs are not catered to"
 

Zeriel

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This is a 5E game built for the masses
See, this statement (while I wholly agree with it) sticks out to me, because wheelchair/LGBTQ/furry/whatever representation is for the minorities, yet Larian concern themselves with indulging it. I honestly would really like to know what percentage of these minorities are going to be actual players of the game, compared to the classic stereotype of gamer (white, male, etc).
I guess it boils down to "Yes, they are a minority, but no longer such a tiny and silent minority that they're incapable of becoming a marketing disaster if their needs are not catered to"

What it is is a forced ideology imparted onto the masses. Basically a peer pressure situation. Most people would rather it not be this way... but they are afraid of what would happen to them if they spoke up. It's like the whole covid surveillance thing; most people didn't support it privately, but they would voice support for ejecting anyone who didn't support it publically. Crab bucket syndrome.
 

Deathhappens

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since single-classing is usually the best choice for most builds, assuming you're not trying to be a smartass with coffeelock or whatever, which is impossible in game anyway
As a non-5E player, I had to look up coffeelock and found this quote confirming its legality:
Yep, that works. Similarly, a paladin/warlock can use warlock slots for Divine Smite. Warlocks have so few slots on purpose!

— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) May 7, 2015
paladin/warlock
:hmmm:

I hate 5E so much it's unreal.

Fuck Jeremy Crawford. Coffeelock isn't rules legal and anyone who tries to pull that shit at a table is getting my Gygax coffee mug to the face.


Also yes, the fact that Paladin/warlock is not only possible but an optimal (and thus highly visible) combination is why 5e sucks donkeydick in a nutshell.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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What it is is a forced ideology imparted onto the masses. Basically a peer pressure situation. Most people would rather it not be this way... but they are afraid of what would happen to them if they spoke up. It's like the whole covid surveillance thing; most people didn't support it privately, but they would voice support for ejecting anyone who didn't support it publically. Crab bucket syndrome.
It's not just this. It's that the people who subscribe to this ideology are big spenders, and they'll basically buy anything with LGBT on the tin. Even if they are a minority, they can still buy a lot of games. 1 million buyers out of 5 million gays is better than 500k buyers out of 50 million normals.

Part of the same reason why there are blacks in every commercial now. Blacks got a ton of free money during COVID, and they have little control over how they spend it. So here's an iPhone ad, a car ad, any kind of ad. Or here's a game where the default human is black!

Yes, it's for this forced ideology thing. Maybe there are some Larian devs who believe it, maybe Blackrock told Wizards to tell them to add it. IDK. But there's also a purely capitalistic motivator to target the LGBT. Especially when parents protesting games like they protested Target hasn't happened or worked in recent memory.
 

MrBuzzKill

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Part of the same reason why there are blacks in every commercial now. Blacks got a ton of free money during COVID, and they have little control over how they spend it. So here's an iPhone ad, a car ad, any kind of ad. Or here's a game where the default human is black!
I wonder if you were black yourself, would you be writing that "there are blacks in every commerical now"
Isn't it possible to put yourself into a shoes of another person and realize you would like to see characters that look like you?
My only gripe was with the wheelchair dungeon due to how unrealistic that sounded, but even that... honestly, I don't give much of a shit if it's explained properly. If I were wheelchair-bound, and knew I couldn't get out for the rest of my life, maybe I would like to imagine a world where people like me can have fun and adventure anyway.
 

Zeriel

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Part of the same reason why there are blacks in every commercial now. Blacks got a ton of free money during COVID, and they have little control over how they spend it. So here's an iPhone ad, a car ad, any kind of ad. Or here's a game where the default human is black!
I wonder if you were black yourself, would you be writing that "there are blacks in every commerical now"
Isn't it possible to put yourself into a shoes of another person and realize you would like to see characters that look like you?
My only gripe was with the wheelchair dungeon due to how unrealistic that sounded, but even that... honestly, I don't give much of a shit if it's explained properly. If I were wheelchair-bound, and knew I couldn't get out for the rest of my life, maybe I would like to imagine a world where people like me can have fun and adventure anyway.

No, actually. Quite the opposite. Seeing people like me doesn't make me happy. Because they aren't "like me", someone with the same skin color has nothing to do with me anymore than someone who wears the same kind of tshirt. Likewise, seeing blacks in commercials doesn't bother me, it's seeing them in numbers that are completely divorced from reality. It makes you aware that the people making the decisions are instituting an ideological brainwashing technique, because this is not "representation", it is the exact opposite, a distortion of actual demographics (blacks are a tiny minority, same for gays, trannies, etc), and seeing them represented as if they are 50% of the population and whites are 10%... well, you decide for yourself why they are doing that.
 

Non-Edgy Gamer

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I wonder if you were black yourself, would you be writing that "there are blacks in every commerical now"
Of course not. I'd say "they's niggers in every commercial now!" :M
Isn't it possible to put yourself into a shoes of another person and realize you would like to see characters that look like you?
If I would, as a part of the majority in the country, I'd like to be represented as a majority. Why am I not? Why is the greater market share not being marketed to as much as a minority?

Your own assumption begs the question. I've already explained the answer in the post you quoted.
 

Ismaul

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Isn't it possible to put yourself into a shoes of another person and realize you would like to see characters that look like you?
Why would I? Spent my whole life identifying with people that don't look like me, but are similarly human. Aren't you assuming "minorities" are racists? Isn't this ideology corrupting said minorities into asking for racial "representation", perpetuating racism in a way no ideology has done before it, all in the name of anti-racism?
 

La vie sexuelle

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since single-classing is usually the best choice for most builds, assuming you're not trying to be a smartass with coffeelock or whatever, which is impossible in game anyway
As a non-5E player, I had to look up coffeelock and found this quote confirming its legality:
Yep, that works. Similarly, a paladin/warlock can use warlock slots for Divine Smite. Warlocks have so few slots on purpose!

— Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford) May 7, 2015
paladin/warlock
:hmmm:

I hate 5E so much it's unreal.

Don't forget evil paladins :D
 

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