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Anime Based Ernie Gygax talks nuTSR

Saerain

Augur
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495
JarlFrank
Screen-Shot-2021-06-24-at-07-04-54.png
It's so obnoxious to have them equivocating between grammatical gender, gender as a euphemism for sex, gender roles, "gender identity" and "gender expression" when they created this homonymic mess in the first place.

This nonconformity-makes-you-another-gender schtick was a bigoted conservative thing in the 90s. The kind of alcoholic boomer NPCs who were so sex-blind that they called guys women/fags/trannies when they didn't cut their hair short enough or wore the wrong colors or some shit. Now it's progressive and damn near normalized, I'm lost.
 
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Self-Ejected

TheDiceMustRoll

Game Analist
Joined
Apr 18, 2016
Messages
761
Before you get too excited about Erie Jr. and his new endeavor it's probably worth looking at the Marmoreal Tomb kickstarter debacle. 5 years late, plenty of bullshit ecxcuses and obfuscation from EGG Jr. and if it weren't for Troll Lord games (the Castles & Crusades guys) it'd be pure vaporware.

If they have something written and ready to publish, but just need some crowd-funding money for art and whatever that's one thing, but if it's anything else, caveat emptor.
Yeah! I pledged to that campaign in July 2015, almost six years ago. An incomplete PDF has been released, but the printed edition is still a promise. ("Any time now", of course). Ernie is putting the blame on his partner, but that's just weaselling out of a commitment after mismanaging funds and delivering nothing. I would not pay a dollar until his next project was done and ready to ship. And perhaps I'd still wait just a little more.

So far, everything they are hyping looks half-baked. No... not half-baked. It looks like there is a pile of flour, some salt, and sourdough scattered willy-nilly on a wooden surface, while the baker is off snoozing in the bakery's back room. Jim Ward is the only one of that team who has consistently delivered things over the last decade. I do not even like his stuff - but Jim is reliable, and these guys are obvious slackers who have only a dim idea of running and fulfilling a Kickstarter campaign. This does make them out of touch.

As for the social media tempest, yes, it is more "love and understanding" from the inkloosive crowd. But right now, there are better people releasing TSR-inspired products, from Gunderholfen to The Heroic Legendarium. That is where my money shall go.

This is the only good response. The people you're trying to pander to care less about your politics and far more if you can compete with the absolute mad-lads that have made putting out TSR-style megadungeons and adventures into a full time job. Ken Crawford claims he's made a million dollars from his game design work. Gary wrote a bunch of shitty systems after he left TSR and nobody gives a fuck about Lejendary Journeys or whatever.
 

Archibald

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
7,869
Sagas = stories about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, sometimes based on fact but often mixed with myth. The old Norsemen also had a sense of humor so gender bending was used as comedy, much like it was done in Shakespeare's time or even in modern comedies. Like that tale where the giants want to wed Freya, but the Aesir dress up Thor as a woman instead so he can sneak in undetected and then slay all the giants at the great reveal. What a riot! Obviously played for laughs, as a good yarn, rather than as a statement of "The god Thor is genderfluid".

I don't get why the fact that it worked in the first place is not an obvious hint that these things were not considered "normal".
 

Gyor

Savant
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Messages
731

Ah yes, because some sagas had characters assuming atypical roles for their gender, it means viking society was genderfluid. Fuck off.

Sagas = stories about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, sometimes based on fact but often mixed with myth. The old Norsemen also had a sense of humor so gender bending was used as comedy, much like it was done in Shakespeare's time or even in modern comedies. Like that tale where the giants want to wed Freya, but the Aesir dress up Thor as a woman instead so he can sneak in undetected and then slay all the giants at the great reveal. What a riot! Obviously played for laughs, as a good yarn, rather than as a statement of "The god Thor is genderfluid".

Trickery was a widely accepted strategy in Norse society. If you wanna get something or off someone but can't do it directly, disguises and other tricky methods were totally fair game.

There's also a big difference between "a thing existed" and "a thing was widely spread and accepted." Yes, men who practiced feminine types of magic existed, and they weren't instantly tossed in the bog for being fags, but they were generally seen as weirdos and your average person would have felt uneasy around them. However, if you tell a normal person in his face that he's a practitioner of feminine magic, he has the right to stab you right then and there because you gravely insulted him.

It is the same with ancient mediterranean cultures like Romans and Greeks. No, the Romans didn't crucify you for being a fag. But they'd fucking ridicule you because the one thing a Roman man should have is virtus, and virtus refers to manly virtues of strength, integrity, willpower etc. A fag doesn't have virtus, therefore he is a lesser man.

Of course, you were allowed to be a lesser man. But that also meant you weren't able to assume societal roles normal men were allowed to (and expected to) perform. Wanna go through an ambitious senatorial career in Rome? If you're a fag, you won't stand a chance. Wanna be a badass viking leading a troop of men to foreign shores? Nobody is gonna join a weirdo who practices woman magic. People will have a sense of respect for a man who's good at that kind of magic, due to his power and occasional usefulness, but he won't ever be a normal part of society. People won't have the same kinds of relationships with him that they have with your average Ragnar from the neighborhood. If you choose a role like that, you will be an outsider.

People like these always like to pick singular examples from literature and history and then claim that this was some kind of norm. No, it wasn't.
Let's compare it with the ancient mediterranean again. Yes, there were some female rulers who led their own armies from the front. Actual badass warrior queens, both among barbarian cultures like the Celts, as well as Hellenistic cultures. But was it the norm? No. Just because a couple of queens went to battle doesn't mean there were scores of female soldiers in a Macedonian phalanx. Whenever you find a woman on an ancient battlefield, chances are that she's the only woman on that battlefield. Or even the only woman in that entire fucking years-long war. Because it was not the norm, but the exception.

Now, what that means for an RPG is: the players should be able to assume such roles, because player characters are always exceptional people, not average people. Otherwise the players would roll a party of local peasants making daily field tilling skill checks, instead of brave adventurers descending into deep dungeons. But it also means that NPCs should react appropriately to such player characters. A player party of vikings where one character is a male seidr-wizard who likes to wear skirts, and another is a tough sword-wielding women with a scarred face? Yeah, these people are weird. They're gonna be treated with curiosity at best, and with hostility at worst. Be prepared for the local kids to point at your characters and say "Look mommy! Look how weird these people are!", and the local tavernkeep hoping that you won't stay very long because he really likes having more normal people as his customers, they cause less trouble.

Gay men aren't lesser you moron.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
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Stumbled upon this and I wouldn't call this guy based, just a slightly-less-pozzed lib.


You might like @GiantLands. Gender is fluid and we don't use Sex as a characteristic.


E. Gary Gygax was not a bigot. He was however a product of his time. His statements from the past & his products are not ours.

On the upside, it is amusing to see the completely-pozzed nu-RPG scene go ballistic at them for daring to try to be politically neutral.



Patrick Weekes said:
In today's hyperpolarized culture, we have a firm commitment to #KeepGamingFantasy. We invite you to escape with us.
You don't own gaming. You don't own fantasy. Somewhere along the way, they outgrew you. And some of us grew along with them. Our table holds a lot more than yours.

Man, he has not aged well.
Rqo--_6Z_400x400.jpg


(these chumps really shouldn't be on twitter, it's enemy-territory)
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,321
So, is this serious, or kind of serious? Is there any money behind it? Are they hiring artists?

I mean they've got some of the older artists on it but wish they'd have some sort of quick start rules available to actually judge it because no way in hell I'm just spending 80 bucks to pre-order a new rpg what I heave no idea what it plays like and Ernie's had issues on delivering before from a kickstarter ages ago. Maybe it'll be all right and maybe the team will make it into something real but sane choice is to wait a actual release to judge.

So far the only thing I've seen of the game is a now deleted from the internet character sheet and this post on their social media.
E4wbJfCWEAQhaNZ


But that Mind Modifier being +20 really looking like its going to be a d100 system that's for sure.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Germania
Patrick Weekes said:
In today's hyperpolarized culture, we have a firm commitment to #KeepGamingFantasy. We invite you to escape with us.
You don't own gaming. You don't own fantasy. Somewhere along the way, they outgrew you. And some of us grew along with them. Our table holds a lot more than yours.
There are a lot of good responses to Weekes' incessant whining.



This one made me chuckle :lol:
 

Lagole Gon

Arcane
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Retaken Potato
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
Am I crazy or his blue hair look like photoshoop?
Apparently he does have danger hair IRL. I guess he was playing around with photo to make sure he will get the perfect faggiest shade of blue?

EjSBSKyVgAAJjiB
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
28,363
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Am I crazy or his blue hair look like photoshoop?
Apparently he does have danger hair IRL. I guess he was playing around with photo to make sure he will get the perfect faggiest shade of blue?

EjSBSKyVgAAJjiB
What are the odds his shirt fully reads flaming faggot?
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Messages
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KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Patrick Weekes said:
In today's hyperpolarized culture, we have a firm commitment to #KeepGamingFantasy. We invite you to escape with us.
You don't own gaming. You don't own fantasy. Somewhere along the way, they outgrew you. And some of us grew along with them. Our table holds a lot more than yours.

"Our table holds a lot more than yours."

No, your table just holds louder people who can't stop screeching until the whole world has heard them.
 

Reinhardt

Arcane
Joined
Sep 4, 2015
Messages
29,666
Sagas = stories about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, sometimes based on fact but often mixed with myth.
It depends. Iirc greenland and iceland sagas are mostly genealogy trees to check who's family owns what to prevent needless bloodshed considering their low population and harsh conditions. Basically "Ernie, son of Gary owns rights to his work. not this Gail woman. Everyone knows it."
 

Whimper

Educated
Joined
Dec 11, 2019
Messages
75
Sagas = stories about extraordinary people doing extraordinary things, sometimes based on fact but often mixed with myth.
It depends. Iirc greenland and iceland sagas are mostly genealogy trees to check who's family owns what to prevent needless bloodshed considering their low population and harsh conditions. Basically "Ernie, son of Gary owns rights to his work. not this Gail woman. Everyone knows it."
Not quite how the prologue of the Prose Edda is usually described, regardless, it'd be nice if ownership of artworks &c ended shortly after death, maybe 10 years leeway for grieving widows and little children then into the public domain. Then there's the vexed question of publishers and companies that could in theory be immortal, maybe they also need to lose control after 10 years of the author's death.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,321
Well the company that had the TSR trademark before they forgot to renew it on time and Ernie's team grabbed it up are now doing everything to distances themselves from it in the normal fashion you'd expect.



Originally they said they were going to still use the logo and just license it from new TSR for a pittance and were diplomatic about it. Now they changed the logo what it is currently and are throwing the new company under the bus.

Also gen con's preemptively banned them



So even if they were to bow down they've already been blacklisted from the industry it seems. This is going to be a lot of drama for a while but good way at least to see what idiots to avoid buying this from I guess. Seriously giantlands doesn't even look that good it'll be a nothing product at launch most likely all this effort to ban and ostracize them just gets them more attention.

On a side note is top secret even any good? Never really hear it get talked about anywhere.
 

A horse of course

Guest
Adding to the above, pretty much everyone is going out of their way to spit on Ernie and prostrate themselves before their woke massas

https://archive.fo/KuZz1

Jeff Dee -- "There is a rumor going around that I am part of this new TSR company. That is not accurate. I have done some work for them as a freelance artist. That’s how I make my living, and spreading the misinformation that I’m now employed full-time by one particular client could stop other clients from approaching me and hurt my business. So, please do not spread that rumor. If I ever become a full-time employee anywhere again, I will announce that myself. Thanks. UPDATE: After investigating reports about statements made by representatives of this new TSR, I have determined that I can no longer do business with them in good conscience. I've returned their downpayment on the next piece of art I was scheduled to do for them. And yeah, I could sure use some new commissions to make up for this big hit on my cashflow"

Luke Gygax -- "FYI- I am not involved with any TSR company nor is Gary Con nor anyone else in my family outside of Ernie. Full stop. That is all ... I have reasons for distancing myself. The way TSR treats people online in their public exchanges is rude. The museum is a for profit business and was asking for donations. Using names of people to promote without their knowledge. Going out of the way to talk gender/woke stuff ... Also basically jacking the TSR logo from Jayson Elliot. The bombastic press releases and claims to old IP. Making a quick nostalgia money grab based on my fathers name and not much else. So I’m making it clear I don’t like this style and I have ZERO to do with TSR"

Tim Kask, an original TSR alumnus who worked at the company until 1980, spoke at length on this topic in a YouTube video (below). I've transcribed some bits, but he says a whole load more (ellipses represent sections I have not included, for reasons of brevity), so check out the video for the whole thing.

"There has been bandied about in social media over the last several days several claims about what's going on in Lake Geneva right now. Ernie Gygax made a most egregious mistake in an interview he did on a podcast. He basically waved his bare ass in front of everybody that's concerned about pronouns, and woke, and all that right now in the industry and thumbed his nose at them. The transcript of his podcasts are there for everyone to read. That they were men, and they didn't give a sh*t, and la la la.

But right there they alienated three quarters of the gaming industry. Probably more than that, I don't believe that there's a quarter of the gaming industry that still are the neanderthals that he would make us out to be.

That's another thing. This whole thing has brought the OSR (the old school revival) into serious disrepute. Now there are some little Karens going on some of the social media and painting with the same brush all of us that were there back then based on the stupid ass sh*t that Ernie just said. No. We weren't all like that. And we aren't all like that now. He's a troll, a troglodyte, a neanderthal, if he really means that. It's a foolish person that doesn't wet his finger once in a while and feel the wind shift.

Now there've been claims in a couple of posts, one of which is by Ernie, about how the stalwarts, the old TSR are flocking to the banner. Bullsh*t....

... There is no one of the creative side of TSR from the early days involved with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum. No one. Not one creative person. No matter who might be claiming what, they simply do not have the credentials. Being named DiMaggio does not mean you can hit a lot of home runs. Or that you even hit any home runs ....

... Just because you say you're TSR doesn't mean you are."


Fuck these spineless scumbags, but Ernie is a fucking moron for apologizing now, nobody should stick up for him.
 

Trithne

Erudite
Joined
Dec 3, 2008
Messages
1,200


So even if they were to bow down they've already been blacklisted from the industry it seems. This is going to be a lot of drama for a while but good way at least to see what idiots to avoid buying this from I guess. Seriously giantlands doesn't even look that good it'll be a nothing product at launch most likely all this effort to ban and ostracize them just gets them more attention


"Cancel Culture doesn't exist, it's just freedom of association"

On a side note is top secret even any good? Never really hear it get talked about anywhere.

Look at their tweet and ask yourself that question again.
 

Bara

Arcane
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
1,321
Adding to the above, pretty much everyone is going out of their way to spit on Ernie and prostrate themselves before their woke massas

Well at least Rob Kuntz is at least defending Ernie as a person while saying what he said was stupid.

Some Idiot:
To be clear, here, Rob - and since you keep coming back here to comment in the most vague terms possible: how do you see this? Is it legit to see lesbians, gay people, bisexual people, trans people of all stripes (including for openness and honesty my beloved) plus queers like me who never imagined they were until they fell in love. How are they destroying anything that your reactionary "founders of roleplaying" aren't? What makes their vision of things - "Drow are Black People" worth preserving? They're digging their own grave here, and that's just sad.

Rob Kuntz:
Did I accuse you of something? No. It's interesting to me from many different perspective. In a related thread to this topic I have read a post calling for the utter ruination of Ernie Gygax, and if that were not possible then as a consolation prize just him not making money and being disfranchised. For what? Well for having what little information we know, some bad I agree, and for this, the man should be ruined. That is not love, that is not growth, that is not learning, that is not progression, that is not... human? Or is it human, too human, as we've seen and perhaps experienced in human history? The mob wants its pound of flesh, and so the tables are turned, the hunter becomes the hunted? Well, not sure. No, really. Ernie hunts no one, he has gay friends, mutual with me in fact in some cases, Ernie wouldn't harm a flea. He's just being stupid is all I can assume. But for this, for not knowing Ernie, or for him expressing some ignorance and ill chosen words, blood is required, just for being human, an imperfect being, no chance, no future, already condemned in the court of public opinion. Sound familiar? It just might. I do not condone his words, but I also do not condemn him, as humans progress, humans change. But not when the mob is in charge, there is no such thing. The mob wants its pound of flesh, its blood. I have found the whole ordeal very sad on many levels.


Same Idiot:
What I responded to was your dismissal of a popular movement because it was popular. You remember the civil rights struggle. You remember the Troubles. You remember Desert Storm and the war for oil... You know what populism is, and so... Ernie has committed to hurting people right now, due to his literal transphobic commentary, from his own mouth

That's awful, and if you neither condemn nor condone him, that's on you. But it's on you and on record.

Neutrality on this is complicity.

Rob Kuntz:
You are wrong. Just as it would be wrong for someone to say, "If you support and befriend gays then you are against us." There was hope for the Gay Pride movement and it is not threatened by Ernie. He is not hunting you, you are hunting him. He's an ignorant, stupid person in this matter, but he's not your enemy, he's a human, just like you. The purpose of Gay Pride was to seek and achieve equality, which has happened. Now you become like those who were once your persecutors? Spare me the us and them mantra of revenge, it's so 3rd wave feminist and I grew up with the first wavers whom I still admire.

And then more of the folks on EN world Proceed to jump on him for his opinions. Followed by EN world locking the thread even though they post every single update they can about this stuff to draw in clicks.
 

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