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Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
The two phrases I wrote were not intended to be linked by logic, they were my observations about the massive wall of text written by the poster. I did not make that clear. Swords have been nerfed, but they're still viable as weapons and mid-game I use noble swords and arming swords as secondary weapons for archers/throwers if that's what I've got. I also like to have at least one two-hander, because I am nostalgic I guess. Then the poster built a pretty sweet duelist, which is an effective build.
Nah, sword duelists suck. Mace/hammer/cleaver/qatal/axe is where it's at.

You know what they call a mace/hammer duelist? Carpenter.

Swordmaster theorycrafting
Anything not having underdog has no business being in melee. Pass.

I really wanted to get Underdog on him, but the thing is, this Swordmaster/Duelist build has so many needed perks that you have to make some tough decisions and leave something out. I chose to leave out Underdog because I use him more as a flank fighter, not as a tank, and with his amazing mobility (Lunge, Footwork), he should generally be able to maneuver his way out of being surrounded, and with his insane melee defense, most enemies ignore him anyway. So Underdog on this particular guy seemed less valuable than the perks I got.
 

rojay

Scholar
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
174
The two phrases I wrote were not intended to be linked by logic, they were my observations about the massive wall of text written by the poster. I did not make that clear. Swords have been nerfed, but they're still viable as weapons and mid-game I use noble swords and arming swords as secondary weapons for archers/throwers if that's what I've got. I also like to have at least one two-hander, because I am nostalgic I guess. Then the poster built a pretty sweet duelist, which is an effective build.
Nah, sword duelists suck. Mace/hammer/cleaver/qatal/axe is where it's at.
Dueling sword duelist is awesome. You need to find the right candidate, but the few times I have they've been pretty sweet. I've gone duelist with mace and axe and those are great too, but nothing compared to my dueling sword dudes. When you lunge at something knowing you're going to kill it in one shot and then get another attack from berserk it's neat.

Edit: qatal duelist is also great for some very specific things.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
Well, I just got ROYALLY F-U-C-K-E-D in my campaign...

Was wrecking the large noble house, army after army after army, when I got this contract to take this asshole to his home village (which belonged to the enemy House). As I am going there, suddently around a bend in the road and the forest around the village, appears a FUCKING enemy army with 26 dudes (a knight, a bannerman, several sergeants, tons of footmen, billmen, etc) and initiates the attack before I even have a chance to shit myself. As if that wasn't bad enough, the battle map is a fucking forest, and my dudes are surrounded on all sides. So I can't even retreat. 12 against high end 26 enemies. I figure I'll use choke-points to even the odds, but these forest maps are so hard to read and move on (with extra AP spent on movement), it becomes a royal clusterfuck. RNG of course continues to fuck me, as the first 2 rounds of combat, the enemy fucks just CANNOT miss. Against my dudes who all have 40+ melee defense, in some cases 60+, they just cannot miss.

Anyways, at some point I realize I am fucked, but I see a couple of crossbowmen and a sellsword and another dude winning on one side of the map (the only place where they were), so I figure I will try to save them at least. Managed to get them to retreat. So by saving them, I keep all of my crossbowmen intact, and my sergeant was healing in camp, so I managed to save quite a few a dudes, but still, lost 8 prime killers. :(

:rage:
 

normie

Arcane
Patron
Zionist Agent
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Mar 9, 2019
Messages
2,741
Insert Title Here
Aboot 40 bucks American for base game and all DLC. Looking for 100 plus hours of content. Worth it?
you'll play it for at least a hundred hours before deciding you don't like it
 

BanEvader

Guest
Aboot 40 bucks American for base game and all DLC. Looking for 100 plus hours of content. Worth it?
A single playthrough could take 100s of hours, theoretically. Then there's the dozen or so company origins that can alter the way you play the game pretty heavily (early to mid game) which might mean new playthroughs. Or you might play the game for 10 hours and decide you don't like it.
Pirate it, like it? Buy it.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
Yeah, it's the kind of game where if it appeals to you, you can EASILY put in thousands of hours. One single campaign can take more time than entire other games. And then you will get inevitably fucked at some point and start a new campaign. This will repeat many times, making you into a more jaded person with less hair. But it's still damn fun.
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
957
Location
Norcia
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.
 
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Eyestabber

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HUEland
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015
And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".
 

Serus

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Small but great planet of Potatohole

PorkyThePaladin

You know what they call a mace/hammer duelist? Carpenter.
That was funny. I also like duelist with the proper sword more. If nothing else then for variety reason. Of curse if i find a great one handed named weapon that would be wasted on a tank i consider making a "carpenter".

Eyestabber

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
The moral of the story is - if there is any at all - that either the interface/visibility in forest maps don't work that well or, as the saying goes: "A bad carpenter always blames his tools".

Fellow Codexer Battle Bros, if you want to criticise then do so, there is plenty to criticise. However combat is the best part in this game. The problems are with everything else, except maybe general atmosphere. All the things that are mediocre or even outright bad. They were mentioned and discussed many times before in this thread too.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
3,084
- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
1) Swamps are worse.

2) Forest (and swamp) is why Pathfinder is a good perk.

3) It's easy to use choke points to your advantage (or it's just me being good at reading the map).

4) The community as a whole is bad? Perhaps it's not the community who's bad? I mean, what is more likely: a few amazing people thinking X is bad, while everyone else and their mother not noticing that OR a few people having difficulties with the game and blaming everyone else for not seeing things their way?
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.

And the moral of the story is:

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
- Swordmasters are also fucking bad. Check the spreedsheets, WORSE stats-for-the-gold ratio. Go Hedge Knight/Oathtaker/Anatomist or go for a cheap background.
- Sword duelists just need so many fucking stats, at that point ANYTHING would "work".

Forest fights are indeed bad. Aside from sometimes being death-traps, they are just generally boring cause everything takes way too long, and the effing trees always make any kind of organized movement a hassle.

Stat to gold ratio is pointless. After a while, your company should be rolling in gold, so spending a bit more for a premium fun build is ok, even if it's not optimal in terms of value. For pure value, nothing can touch crossbowmen and footmen from poor backgrounds.

- forest fights are bad, they've always been bad and the community is made up of retards who fail to point that out, which means they will always be bad.
1) Swamps are worse.

Lol, my most hated company wipes have been the swamp fights against Brigands with a Necromancer. He keeps resummoning them as undead, while your dudes are all exhausted from swamp crap.

Well, I just got ROYALLY F-U-C-K-E-D in my campaign...

I managed to save quite a few a dudes, but still, lost 8 prime killers. :(

:rage:
Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
957
Location
Norcia
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.


You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats. That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus, that will become 53 hp if he gets the Old trait. And with a Nimble build on top of that. Good job, really.
On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

So, once again, no, it's not an underrated build. That's not really the adjective for it.
 
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vazha

Arcane
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
1,939
Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.
Sooo... they surrounded him, right? And he didnt have underdog, right? Well.
p.s. old is inevitable. The salary decrease is a precursor event.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.


You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more. :smug:

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Did teh swordu-masataru survive?

No... Being surrounded in the forest, I panicked and sent him against what I thought were 2 pikemen, but there were like 6 other enemies hidden in that area, so they surrounded him, and he had the "Pessimist" trait, so he routed pretty quickly. And died. Maybe I will get Lone Wolf next time.
Sooo... they surrounded him, right? And he didnt have underdog, right? Well.
p.s. old is inevitable. The salary decrease is a precursor event.

He didn't die because of not having underdog. He died because once they were around him (not actually adjacent but just loosely around), he started losing resolve fast (had about 66 but also Pessimist trait :( ). So he quickly routed and got cut down trying to flee. If I was going to change anything, I would probably get Lone Wolf instead of Underdog, LW gets +15% resolve bonus as well as attach and mdef bonuses, so that might help for those cases where these guys get separated from the main force, I noticed they lose resolve fast then.

I don't believe Old is inevitable. It can happen or not. I got the event without it, and I leveled him from 1 to 11.
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
957
Location
Norcia
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.


You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more. :smug:

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Are you a Llilura disciple, who thinks that in order to be authoritative you only have to scream "I am authoritative" all the time while spouting bullshit?

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775
So why is this build so underrated by many?
Because it's a crappy build that only sort of 'works' because it has an exceptional Swordmaster as a base. But again, even the dumbest melee build will sort of 'work' with 95 attack and 66 defense.

The main point of pumping Initiative is not, as you say, for dodge (that extra amount of defense is negligible): it's in order to get the extra damage when you Lunge. You got a background that starts with a heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue, and that is going to get the Old trait, which means a further heavy penalty to Initiative and Fatigue. Once your Old Swordmaster has 95 starting Initiative, he will be 6 Initiative away from lunging with a penalty to damage, which will quickly become heavier and heavier, since between Lunge and Footwork this is a Fatigue-intensive build, without the stats to support it. So you are left to slash away with a not very good sword that has its main advantage turned into a disadvantage.

This is completely wrong in just about every way:

- Dodge is amazing for defense on this build - you can easily get your initiative up to 120-130 on a Swordmaster by level 11, so after all the equipment penalties, it should be 100+. It was 103 on my dude. So at around 100 Initiative, the defense bonus to dodge would be 15 mdef and rdef, or in other words, the same as a standard shield. This is negligible?

- I don't think building a Lunge damage build is very practical. First, you need like 187 Initiative for it to double regular attack damage, and how many backgrounds would allow for that? And those probably have crappy mattack and mdef stats in most cases. But even if you do, lunge is so fatigue heavy to use and situational, it's next to impossible to spam it, so why make a build around its damage? To me, lunge is a lot more useful as a mobility thing, to ensure getting 2 hits every round at least, and to get around the battlefield, while doing most damage with regular attacks.

- Old trait is not guaranteed, on my previous swordmaster, I got the getting old event without getting the old trait, he just asked for a salary decrease. If you do get it, you can find an item which negates it on one guy.

- my build is not fatigue intensive at all, read the perks I selected. I had 64 fatigue at level 11. With light equipment (fencing sword, lamelar armor, sallet helmet), you don't need much fatigue, and with Sword Mastery you barely spend any on attacks, just limit your use of Lunges to be situational and you will be fine.


You really are a poster-child for the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Yes, more ad hominems please, they just let me know I am winning more. :smug:

You lucked into an exceptional specimen (we are talking about a 0,01 outlier at the very least), and you managed to butcher it into possibly the worst build/role combination. Only way you could have done anything more stupid would have been turning him into a ranged unit.

Uh, wrong, as I already mentioned, I didn't luck into anything, he was the third Swordmaster I hired in this campaign, I let the first 2 go because I wasn't happy with their stats. Nice try though.

Leveling initiative in order to get defense is a bad trade-off if done in order to get extra defense, since it's at most 1 post of temporary defence for every 6-7 points of Initiative, which comes of course at the price of not leveling up other stats.

Wrong again, your track record on being wrong is stellar. There is no trade-off since every level I would level up mdef first, and only then if nothing else was more worth it, I would dump points into Initiative. Since he was going to suck against ranged anyway, I didn't spend points on rdef, he already had high resolve and I put some points into that also, and as for health, he had no stars in that, so I could only increase it by like 2 points per level. 5 points of initiative per level > 2 points of health for a guy built around damage avoidance.

That's how you end up with a 11 level mercenary with 63 hp with Colossus,

This was more than enough for something like 100 battles. This guy almost never gets hit, when he rarely does get hit, the 120/110 armor takes care of it, and if something gets past that, Nimble will take care of it.

On the other hand, leveling initiative makes a lot of sense if you choose the fencing sword, since damage modifiers are really rare in Battle Brothers. Which means you have to select an appropriate background/specimen (which you didn't), and be able to manage fatigue properly.

Now you are just engaging in a really silly circular non-argument, something like "you didn't use this great build of mine on this guy, for which you would've needed another guy anyway..." Lol.

Getting the most out of a Lunging build is not especially difficult: of course, you need at least a passing understanding of BB mechanics. Which brings us to...

1. I wasn't going for a Lunging build, so I don't even know why you keep bringing it up.
2. However, I will humor you, and question the feasibility of a lunging build in general. To use Lunge consistently and not just like a closer like I was doing, you would need to use Lunge (~20 fatigue) and then I guess Footwork back so you can use it again (another ~20 fatigue). What kind of a build would allow you to constantly burn 40 fatigue per turn and still remain functional? But even if you could, and even if you had enough Ini to use it for full damage (twice the normal attack damage), for which you would need an entirely different background (itt only ratcatchers, jugglers, and maybe thieves have that kind of Ini), you would still get only 1 Lunge per turn, so your dps would be exactly the same as a guy doing 2 normal attacks per turn, except he d inflict 2 injuries in that time, AND those backgrounds have shitty other stats, so it would be way worse.

The funny thing is that you seem to feel so clever for crippling your super-Swordmaster into a dumb mobility-based build focusing on Footwork and a neutered Lunge: guess what, with 71-66 defense, it's the very last kind of build that needs to waste a perk with Footwork or using a Fencing Sword just to jump around, since with that monstrous level of defense he can just waltz into and out of enemies' faces without the need to waste perks or fatigue (and thus futher reducing the Lunge damage). Didn't you learn anything from enemy Assassins/Swordmasters?

I got him Footwork for defensive purposes (getting out of tight spots), not for offense. So like if he suddenly gets hit for massive damage and needs to gtfo out there without risking another hit (which BB has a lot of). Is it the best perk for him? Maybe not, but literally doesn't have anything to do with the main argument at hand.

Are you a Llilura disciple, who thinks that in order to be authoritative you only have to scream "I am authoritative" all the time while spouting bullshit?

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar... :)

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger. :)

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter. :)
 

k0syak

Cipher
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
393
I like fencing swords on tanks for an additional repositioning option.
Also, Brancaleone there's a gimmick build for an overwhelm daggerbro that doesn't care about MA and takes both initiative and MD on every level-up :)
 

Brancaleone

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
957
Location
Norcia

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar... :)

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger. :)

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter. :)
Ok, then keep being the source of 90% of the retardation in this thread. Some day you will discover what makes a recruit exceptional, what perks and stats are for, stuff like Assassin's Robes/Masks, how builds work, the relative value of attachments depending on build/role, and so on.

Or most likely not, and you'll keep going around screaming blue murder because your backline gets shot in spite of being, and I quote you, "behind a line of guys with shields". No, I don't think you are going to solve that one (among so many others).

I like fencing swords on tanks for an additional repositioning option.
Also, Brancaleone there's a gimmick build for an overwhelm daggerbro that doesn't care about MA and takes both initiative and MD on every level-up :)
Yes, a Fencing Sword in the pocket/hand is a good option for those situations. Especially since in order to do that you just need the sword, without having to mess-up your build. Can't say I like it too much conceptually, though.

The overwhelm daggerbro I tried a few times, and it's downright broken in my book, it just ridiculises almost all of the scariest enemies in the game.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
3,775

Yay, more ad hominem attacks, feed me moar... :)

Do you realize how many Swordsmaster are around on average? And among them, how many have 23 initial defence PLUS two stars? Yes, exactly. Or do you think every third Swordmaster comes with that?

It's not that uncommon. Swordmasters start with 10-20 mdef, so all you need is a trait like Sure Footing. A few points up or down don't change the argument anyway.

I manage to make Lunge builds work pretty well in terms of extra damage even with medium famed armour and Battle Forged (I never do Nimble because it feels like cheating). With Nimble and light equipment, a lounger becomes really a monster with the right recruit. You simply have no idea how to manage fatigue (on par with the rest of the basics, apparently), or what build is appropriate with which stats/background.

Translation: "Despite your logical argument about why my build sucks, I manage to make it work, with no explanation given as to how."

Ok, tiger. :)

So you got your truly exceptional speciment survive 100 battles in spite of an abysmal build. As I said already, with that kind of recruit, even the dumbest build will sort of work, even in the hands of a very unskilled player.

Another ad hominem without any noticeable point of any sort.

Do we have to go on on the rest of the perks, or on why in the world on day 210+ you are equipping such a specimen with Sallet, Lamellar Leather and Wolf attachment?

Because I am playing at my pace and not rushing? Those are excellent pieces of equipment for this build btw, short of unique named items.

Edit: oh, I had missed the fact that he had the Pessimist trait. You know what's bad for Pessimists? Yes, getting a lot of morale checks from enemies getting into contact with them. Also wandering away from the Bannerman's morale umbrella. So here is the final stroke of genius, let's make our Pessimist a flanker in order to maximize both his wanderings away from the Bannerman and the number of enemies that might get into contact with him. Chapeau!

A flanker on average deals with less enemies than someone in the middle of the battle line, and obviously you can't make a Swordmaster/Duelist a frontline dude anyway, so I don't get your point here. Or anywhere for that matter. :)
Ok, then keep being the source of 90% of the retardation in this thread. Some day you will discover what makes a recruit exceptional, what perks and stats are for, stuff like Assassin's Robes/Masks, how builds work, the relative value of attachments depending on build/role, and so on.

Or most likely not, and you'll keep going around screaming blue murder because your backline gets shot in spite of being, and I quote you, "behind a line of guys with shields". No, I don't think you are going to solve that one (among so many others).


Lol, your argument is "stop hurting me with logic, one day you will learn to be gud, and then you will understand why your logic won't work against me". Gj, breh.
 

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