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Incline Battle Brothers + Beasts & Exploration, Warriors of the North and Blazing Deserts DLC Thread

Serus

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Virtually any brother of a high-tier background is a solid end-game brother right out the gate. People who complain about the recruitment lottery in BB are exclusively noobs -- either they are literally new or just clueless.

People going around hiring and instantly firing until they find the "right brother" are either so late-game that it literally doesn't matter what you do or cluelessly chasing some sort of extreme ideal that the game has never been balanced around.

All content is pretty comfortably doable with so-so brothers.
Same stuff
Absolutely not true at all. I had an Asthmatic Hedge Knight once. It doesn't get more end game than HK and it doesn't get more crippling than Asthmatic. And the last part is false IF you know how this game balance its encounters. Essentially the only way a player can get ahead on the power curve is by having way above average bros. Numbers and gear are compensated by the game with more/tougher enemies. So playing the recruitment roulette is essential for success. Or cheating said roulette, which is what I and 99% of the community do. Incidentally that's why it's so hard for discussion on BB to move forward: the "hardcore fans" are either liars or masochists. The risk-to-reward ratio of fighting most monsters in this game is unjustifiable and other fights aren't much better. And then you now have the Arena, a place where you can earn roughly the same as a contract while fighting snakes, hyenas and mooks. High reward, low risk.


You're surprised that last DLC of game has enemies that tweak with meta of how you build your battleline?
There is no tweak, Sandniggers are stronger than either orc or undead, to the point where it prevents a sane player from going "random" on their first crisis. Holy war isn't winnable (as first crisis).

With the exception of throwing nets, all those other options are expensive, meaning such OP tools are restricted to post 1st crisis gameplay.

Last but not least, back on the recruitment roulette: you shouldn't have to pay to figure out a guy is a giant or a midget, or clubfooted or has asthma. That's something a mercenary captain would notice just by taking a quick look at the candidate. The recruitment system of BB is terrible and unfun from a gameplay perspective AND also unrealistic gamey and nonsensical. It's the worse of both worlds. OTOH a background like "killer on the run" actually IS something that could reasonably be hidden from the captain, but this one we always know. Thanks, Obama.
This is such a BULLSHIT of gigantic proportions... Imagine that - gigantic shit of a bull?
Having "way above average bros" is not the only way. I don't know if it's a way at all and I did play this game on quite hard settings (i'm obviously a cheater, right?). I'm not even that good. It seems to me that you are just an inexperienced player. Maybe you knew it long time ago but obviously not anymore. Which begs the question why, instead of being grumpy, you don't try to learn the game?

As to power curve, gear is not included. At least i never witnessed it in my games on any significant scale. Perhaps its some minor factor? Where did you get that info? Anyone has some insight on this?
In fact gear is the way to get ahead of the curve. Early game things like armour from brigands. Daggers are your friend. Later instead of doing contracts - raiding camps. And not spending all your money on high-end backgrounds but buy some gear - and recruit the decent cheap backgrounds and keep only the good bros. Much less "roulette" this way. And dogs. And consumables. And last but not least - good tactics.

As to the recruitment system being not fun? Perhaps, matter of preference i suppose. However the "realism" argument won't fly. This is and is meant to be a game with highly abstract ruleset. So yes you have to pay to see their traits because those are rules - not part of a realistic simulation. I might add that that you also get to buy knowledge of traits that you wouldn't be able to learn "realistically" before hiring a bro. And i am certain that if you wouldn't be able to tell that someone is a coward before hiring him you'd bitch about that too.
 

k0syak

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
 

Serus

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
I was toying with the idea before. But lindwurms.... Have you been really able to break morale of a wurm with 4 shots from a handgun? Semi-reliably?
 

k0syak

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Has anyone tried multiple gunners with 2 handgonnes each (turn 1 swap and reload, turn 2 double shot)? If you get 4, most things either die or break before reaching your lines, even works on lindwurms :D
I was toying with idea. But lindwurms.... Have you been really able to break morale of a wurm with 4 shots from a handgun? Semi-reliably?
4 as in 4 gunners, so 8 shots. All three that weren't engaged got routed, but only tried it once, hate fighting those fuckers. 2 double gunners are enough to wreck humans and orcs pretty reliably.
 
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The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
 

Darth Roxor

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Did you watch a thread about a game you don't give a shit about for god knows how many years just so you could post this when someone changed their mind?

no, i was tagged in the post right above mine and then read up a little
 

Brancaleone

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The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.
 
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Serus

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Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire.

Brancaleone


Sorry for nitpicking. Technically - no. Nimble can still profit from better armour. You will be better in an assassin armour or a named light one than in raider gear. And those are as hard to come by as good heavy armours. It's just that the "profit margin" is so small that it doesn't matter much in practice so is mostly irrelevant and not worth spending resources on. This is, as you correctly said, a problem in a game "about gear".

I agree otherwise, nimble is ridiculous conceptually and also somewhat OP in practice. Not using Nimble is of curse not a great option. BTW, do you play Ironman?

"Legends" mod has "medium armour" line of perks, btw. I didn't play it very long but it seemed OK. Also not all bros in Legends have all options (nimble, bf, medium) available to them AND there are additional perks that gets better with higher armour values. That makes other options more balanced with Nimble but Nimble itself conceptually is still the same aka ridiculous.

Good post.
 

Brancaleone

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Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire.

Brancaleone


Sorry for nitpicking. Technically - no. Nimble can still profit from better armour. You will be better in an assassin armour or a named light one than in raider gear. And those are as hard to come by as good heavy armours. It's just that the "profit margin" is so small that it doesn't matter much in practice so is mostly irrelevant and not worth spending resources on. This is, as you correctly said, a problem in a game "about gear".

I agree otherwise, nimble is ridiculous conceptually and also somewhat OP in practice. Not using Nimble is of curse not a great option. BTW, do you play Ironman?

"Legends" mod has "medium armour" line of perks, btw. I didn't play it very long but it seemed OK. Also not all bros in Legends have all options (nimble, bf, medium) available to them AND there are additional perks that gets better with higher armour values. That makes other options more balanced with Nimble but Nimble itself conceptually is still the same aka ridiculous.

Good post.
Yes, you still have a small incentive to acquire rare/expensive/endgame gear in order to get some marginal advantage. Which, in some cases (if you roll medium-ish famed armour with especially low fatigue), just adds to the ludicrous advantages of Nimble: for no drawbacks whatsoever, now you even have a decent amount of armour on top of your stoneskin! Actually, with merely average fatigue rolls for Named Noble Mail and Wolf Helmet, you can have full Nimble with up to 175/200 armour. With lowest fatigue rolls, you can have up to 250/200 armour by sacrificing a measly 1% in damage reduction. Eat that, cleavers&goblins!

Let's put it this way (even if it's not 100% accurate): Dodge is a perk that makes you think more (you have a real incentive to take your initiative and the related fatigue mechanic into account), Nimble is a perk that makes you think much, much, much less.

I play Expert/Expert/Low, random unexplored maps with permanent destruction enabled. I play quasi-Ironman, in the sense that if I get screwed by the abysmal worldmap pathfinding (so many times, especially when you are fleeing from an enemy, you start zig-zagging for no reason, or even go the opposite direction you clicked for half a second) or by the automatic retreat from battle, I reload. Of course, I couldn't really claim that all of my runs end up in glory and covered in sestertii™, but that's the way I like it.

As I said, I really would like something that gives extra options/benefits to having more fatigue/initiative. I think the fatigue/initiative base armour system is excellent, it's just that there is no much room for, let's say, an incursor/infiltrator-type of build (that does not have to depend on getting 50 defense without shield).
 
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oasis789

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To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue oeven late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
 

Brancaleone

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To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue oeven late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother
Have you considered just modding out the 5-95 dice cap? I know it's to simulate a critical failure or lucky break but it always feels like being punished for playing well.
But I'm actually fine with a 5% being able, in extreme circumstances, to one-shot a BF brother. To me part of the appeal of Battle Brothers is trying your best to avoid those extreme circumstances. Ok, maybe not a 300/300 BF bro with very good hp (for a BF bro), that's a bit too much.
 

Brancaleone

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I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.
How was exactly old Nimble (I cannot seem to recall)? Was it similar to current Dodge?

Do you know where to find descriptions of the old perks? I tried to look in the DevBlog and in the Steam updates, but there's very little.
 
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I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.
How was exactly old Nimble (I cannot seem to recall)? Was it similar to current Dodge?

Do you know where to find descriptions of the old perks? I tried to look in the DevBlog and in the Steam updates, but there's very little.
IIRC Nimble pre B&E worked as a % chance of taking half damage from a hit based on the total fat penatly of the equipped armor & helmet. Old Steam guides are a good shout for reference info on how current perks used to work - anything that hasn't been updated since B&E's release is a good bet. I think the change to the Battle Forged formula was just prior to full release. I remember players complaining about a big drop off in BF durability then.

Very little reference info around now about the old perk trees (the current perk tree was introduced in August 2016 looking back at the Dev Blogs). Most of the old perks turned up in individual mods, lots are in Legends (albeit tweaked somewhat) and some are still used by older enemy types e.g. Hedge Knights get Battle Flow & Devastating Strikes, the cheeky bastards.

Edit: would be interesting to run a pre Aug 2016 build again sometime if anyone has one archived.

Edit again: and I think Nimble may even have worked like the Lucky trait once upon a time as well but I'm less sure about that.
 
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7h30n

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To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
 

Teut Busnet

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To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
If you like BB, you'll like it even more with DLC. If you don't like it, the DLCs probably won't sway you, though they do add a lot. If they're only reduced by 10% as in the last couple of sales, you could wait and just try the main game.

I would rate them:
  • 'Beasts & Exploration' 3,5 / 5 (adds crafting and some creatures)
  • 'Warriors of the North' 5 / 5 (adds the northern barbarian faction and most of the 'Origins')
  • 'Blazing Deserts' 4,5 / 5 (adds the southern deserts, the arab inspired faction and a couple more origins)
  • ('Lindwurm' and 'Of Flesh and Faith' are smaller in scale, but free anyway)
All of them are worth it and also bring 'minor' stuff like different weapons, banners etc.
 
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axx

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Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
 

Darth Canoli

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To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
If you like the BB, you'll like it even more with DLC. If you don't like it, the DLCs probably won't sway you, though they do add a lot. If they're only reduced by 10% as in the last couple of sales, you could wait and just try the main game.

I would rate them:
  • 'Beasts & Exploration' 3,5 / 5 (adds crafting and some creatures)
  • 'Warriors of the North' 5 / 5 (adds the northern barbarian faction and most of the 'Origins')
  • 'Blazing Deserts' 4,5 / 5 (adds the southern deserts, the arab inspired faction and a couple more origins)
  • ('Lindwurm' and 'Of Flesh and Faith' are smaller in scale, but free anyway)
All of them are worth it and also bring 'minor' stuff like different weapons, banners etc.

It's a matter of taste, I agree about the DLC except if you only want to buy 2, because of your budget, I'd only buy the first two.
My ratings would be Beasts & Explo 3.8, WotN 4, B. Desert 3.4.

Southern cities appeal is the Arena first and trading goods second, snakes and a couple of legendary locations but ifrits are a pain and southern armies are nothing special.
And I don't like southern equipment either (good scimitars with legends though).

If you want to play with the legends mod on a second playthrough (and you want to if you like the game), it requires ALL the DLC.

So, maybe try the base game for a short run and if you like it, buy all the DLC.


Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.

axx
Yes, tough monsters is what you need, why would you play Battle Brothers otherwise?
Same remark as earlier, it's a requirement for the Legends mod...
 

Teut Busnet

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Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
The introduction of 'Origins' really brought some welcome variety, it's the best addition made to BB. The Barbarians being tough is not necessarily negative and some of their gear is fine as well - just like with regular bandits.

Adding 'Champions' and two 'mid-game' legendary locations was also nice.
 

Brancaleone

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Is Warriors of North really that good? From what I heard the northern mobs are super tough and their loot is crap.
Reavers can carry devastating tier-3 throwing weapons, barbarian iron melee weapons are really good against armour (useful against orc warriors/warlords, since you cannot loot their armour).
Northern armour is on average fatigue-inefficient, not worth farming.
To compensate (I guess), even the smallest groups (I mean also wandering bands, not just location/camps) of barbarians have a good chance of leaving behind figurines/bead necklaces, which sell for 200/250 each (and you can get even 3-4 from a single battle).
Plus quite a bit of medicinal supplies.
 
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Joined
May 2, 2012
Messages
399
To read 374 pages of this thread or not to read... Perhaps I should just ask a potentially repeat question here, hmm...

Steam sale should be coming up soon, and I've been eyeing to pick up this game for a while now. Obviously, I've never played the game before, and the reason I'm thinking of getting it is because I get classic X-Com vibes from it.

Should I immediately buy the DLCs as well, and if so which ones?
Cards on table for me - BB's a modern classic. Just great fun and a rare example of a proc-gen title done right. I've played it intermittently since the EA and will do so for many years to come, especially with Legends' development progressing apace.

I'd echo other posters above. Try the base game first then get the DLCs you like it. You'll easily get your money's worth if they're on sale.
 

k0syak

Cipher
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
408
The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.

(80hp 300/300 Forge bro using AFP attachment)

2H Spike Mace (Chosen):
  • Normal: Death in 3.8 hits. 6.4% Death in 2. 16% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 4.11 hits. 8.2% Death in 3. 6% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 2.

Berserk Chain (Berserker):
  • Normal: Death in 2.64 hits. 14.6% Death in 1! 36% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 3.24 hits. 16.4% Death in 2. 18% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.

Been taking brow instead of brawny lately, easier to play around lower fatigue than getting 1-shotted :)
 

Brancaleone

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
1,004
Location
Norcia
The game is at a point where its never been easier to build a viable bro, especially with the new toys the DLCs gave us.
Absolutely, the game is now full of 'pay to win' options (i.e. consumables) or alternatives that have no trade-off or drawbacks, or things that eliminate even the 5% failure chance (which, in a game that is all about risk-management, is a BIG deal).

Nets are sure-hit, dirty cheap, and trivialize high-defense enemies. Grenades are expensive, but also have a 100% chance to work. A 110 MAtk Swordmaster has more chance of failure against a 1hp, stunned, dazed, netted, fleeing goblin than a primitive concoction (which will infallibly work).
Throwing weapons trivialize the lack of ranged skill: at range 2, the difference between a bow quick shot and a throwing weapon is a staggering 24 (a bow has -4% per tile), i.e. six levels' worth of max rolls. At range 2 your 40 RAtk thrower will hit like a 64 RAtk bowman. Then if you want you get an absurd amount of damage increase with mastery, and a 25% to ignore armour with duelist. Only drawback is ammo cost/capacity (which are also a factor for bows, albeit less so), i.e., another 'pay to win' (so to speak) option.
Taunt and whips trivialize non-beast scary enemies. At the very least whips should check against MAtk, not MDef: the way it is, your 45 MAtk, 40 MDef Peddler has like 95% less chance to drop his weapon than an Orc Warlord.
Quick Hands trivializes positioning: why should I wreck my brain in order to position the most appropriate bro to face the most appropriate enemy, when I can have a Swiss Army knife (with even the option of ridiculous Billhook-Two Handed Cleaver combos in the same turn, for free)?
Dodge completely trivializes what is by far the most difficult part of the game, i.e. switching from Raider gear to next tier armour. It also works 100% of the time (I played like a moron and got myself stunned, dazed, netted, goblin-poisoned, panicked, exhausted, etc. etc.? No problem, still works like a charm!), and always at 100% effectiveness (while Battle Forge works increasingly less as soon as your armour gets degraded). It also has no drawbacks/trade-offs whatsoever (no fatigue penalty, no huge expenses in order to acquire good or great armour, or dealing with the chance of it not being available). I can afford even more sloppy play, because my risk to get wounded plummets. It also removes a strategical element: you need tools, a lot of, and money, to repair heavy armour, while hp regeneration is quick, free, and always available.

So while I wholeheartedly agree that it's never been easier to build viable bros, perhaps calling it flexible is slightly misleading: now there are quite a few of high reward-no drawback options that give dumb plays a huge pass (nimble, throwing weapons, consumables, etc.), plus a few extremely expensive and much more difficult to implement options that are relegated to niche cases or that give you a bit of extra edge in some selected end-game fights.
Forge has certainly lost a step compared to Nimble (I assume you mean Nimble when you use Dodge above). A good buff for BF would be to reinstate the old damage reduction calculation i.e. reduction is 5% of maximum total armor value rather than current total armor value. Would make the investment a bit more worthwhile and consistent. I don't think you could realistically revert to old Nimble with the way the game is now, too much enemy AiD floating around with the DLCs.

The Greatsword could use a little buff up too, nerfed as it has been into a pitiful state. The AiD and armor damage are now too low to make the flexibility worth it AND it is handily outperformed in specific roles by the other tier three 2-handers or polearms; all of which happen to be cheaper than the GS. Very sad. Fond memories of running an all GS AoE massacre frontline.
To be honest, I don't even see it as an issue of balance. [edit: I personally like BF the way it is: it forces you to keep track of your armour degradation, i.e., it adds a further factor to take into account]

Nimble is a really clumsy attempt to make light armour relevant in later game (why not medium armour then?). Conceptually, it's ridiculous: at the cost of one perk, you have a magical, infinite, eternal, permanent, always active, non dispellable super-stoneskin. You keep twisting your body just the right amount to get only 40% of the damage even if you are stunned, rooted, netted, exhausted, panicked, etc. etc. A two-handed mace strikes you down? No prob, in those two turns you are prone (and possibly surrounded) you will still be wiggling your ass just fine in order to dodge (but not quite) blows. It only checks armour and helmet fatigue: you can go around in raider gear, with an sead splitter in you right hand, an orc metal shield in your left, and four mansplitters strapped to your back, and you'll still be just as nimble as if you were naked, while at the same time not being able to even move a step because you are already fatigued out from turn 1 if you have less than 128 base fatigue.

Mechanically, in a game that is mostly about gear, it's an absolute disaster. BF works better if you have better armour: more expensive, more difficult to find, riskier to acquire. That is fine. Nimble works better if you have worse armour: cheaper, easier to find , less risky to acquire. Should I select one perk and be fine with raider gear until the endgame, or select one perk (actually two, since you typically also need Brawny) and spend an enourmous amount of money, time and take huge risks in order to acquire heavy armour in order to make decent use of that perk? It greatly diminishes risk-management: you will never -ever- again take full damage, no matter the situation, only 40%. With BF, at least you have to take care of your armour: you lose it, you get full damage.

Then, subjectively speaking: to me the best thing of Battle Brothers is the nail-biting whenever I have to make a hard choice or I didn't take some factor into account and now my mercenary is in a risky situation. With nimble, it's a snoozefest. Chain-berserker who can one-shot my 110hp, 300/300 armour battleforged bro? With nimble, it will take three shots at the very least. Armour piercing weapons? Nimble, and stop worrying. Chosen? Nimble! Lindwurm? Nimble-tank! Schrats? Nimble! Ifrits? Nimble! And so on, and so on. Oh, but Nimble is weak(er) against cleavers and poison. Well, poison doesn't one shot you, and neither does bleeding: even late game, it's mostly about the 5% hit that can one-shot a brother, not about the "I played like an ass for 5 consecutive turns, and my bro now has six bleeding stacks, and nobody in my company has bandages, nimble is weak against cleavers!" Similarly, having eaten 30 goblin arrows means you had oh-so-many opportunities to correct the situation.

As I would like it: since light armour already has its own reward, which is a truckload of extra farigue and initiative, give the player extra ways to make (better) use of that fatigue/initiative. From the top of my head, it could be anything among:
[As a premise: make Nimble dependent on total equipment fatigue, make Quick Hands cost 1 AP but make it reduce throwing nets/bombs to 3 AP]
- the less equipment fatigue, the more chance to re-roll a hit (similar to the Lucky trait, but better).
- Dodge is increasingly less dependent on current initiative, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Rotate and Footwork have heavily reduced farigue/Ap cost, depending on how light your equipment is.
- Quick Hands has 0 AP cost.
- Nine Lives gives increased bonus when activated, and for more turns
- Anticipation grants also some damage reduction proportional to the lightness of your equipment and to the distance (the only case where the 'twisting your body' thing would make a modicum of sense).
[edit] - a successful attempt to get rid of nets/roots costs you 1 AP, one quarter of the fatigue; an unsuccessful one 4 AP, half fatigue (after all, you are nimble: you slip from under the net, don't necessarily have to break it)
[edit] - some chance to shrug off the stunned/dazed effect, proportional to how light your equipment is

And so on, I'm sure there are much more talented people than me could devise much more interesting options. The point is, Nimble if based on things like these would make things MORE interesting: wouldn't you take some additional risks with wearing light armour if it allowed you to get to the enemy line, disengage twice with Footwork for a reasonable fatigue/AP cost and then get to that Arbalester/Necromancer/Shaman/Hexe/etc.? With all the risk that ending up deep into the enemy lines would entail, of course.
Instead, we got brain-dead perma-stoneskin, the epitome of the Sawyeristic approach to balance.

And before some genius has the epiphany of a lifetime and tells me "if you don't like Nimble, don't take it, duh!", that's exactly what I do: I play with no Nimble, no Taunt, no Quick Hands, no Whips, no Throwing Weapons, no reserve (only 12 men, everybody fights, and I include at the very least one monk and one historian in every run). But it's still a huge missed opportunity.

(80hp 300/300 Forge bro using AFP attachment)

2H Spike Mace (Chosen):
  • Normal: Death in 3.8 hits. 6.4% Death in 2. 16% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 4.11 hits. 8.2% Death in 3. 6% chance of hitting heavy injury threshold in 2.

Berserk Chain (Berserker):
  • Normal: Death in 2.64 hits. 14.6% Death in 1! 36% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.
  • Brow: Death in 3.24 hits. 16.4% Death in 2. 18% of hitting heavy injury threshold in 1.

Been taking brow instead of brawny lately, easier to play around lower fatigue than getting 1-shotted :)
Yeah, and that's with -34% armour ignore damage from the Additional Fur Padding!

We are talking a (at least) level 7 BF bro with an around 15,000 gold armour/helmet investment (or the equivalent risks taken in daggering Hedge Knights or similar, plus the issue of actually finding that level of armour/Hedge Knights to fight, plus the constant repairs), plus having killed on average 3 Frost Unholds for the chance of getting the fur.

Meanwhile our level 7 Nimble with his 7-800 gold investment/daggering down some crappy Lower Raider would just waltz through the first hits.

Pretty insane overall.
 
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Brancaleone

Liturgist
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
1,004
Location
Norcia
Yeah, early-mid nimble is kang, not much sense going BF unless you chance upon a good famed armor.
And it's not like late-game BF is superior, especially if you chance upon a good famed light armor for your Nimblebro.

BF ends up being slightly better only in very selected cases, which on top of that are the kind of cases where you get 'death from a thousand cuts', i.e., where you are not at the RNG's mercy because you have so much time to rectify the situation (goblin arrows, webknechts, hyenas, etc.). For which you need a horrendous investment in terms of gold/time/risks, and quite a lot of babysitting until you get the right gear. While Nimble needs almost no investment, and no baby-sitting at all.

It boils down to a simple question: if I'm facing one of the top-dangerous foes, do I feel safer with a Nimble-tank or with a BF-tank? Chosen, Schrat, Berserker, Warlord, Lindwurm, Unhold, Assassin, Blade-Dancer, Arbalester, Overseer, Fallen Hero, etc. etc.

To be honest, apart from the version armed with a cleaver, I find it hard to mention when you'd be safer with a BF-tank (maybe I'm missing some).

I might just be coincidence, but the (admittedly few) times I went and watched some high-level player on youtube, it always ended up with like 10 Nimblebro plus a couple of BF just in case you need someone to throw at goblin arrows or at cleaver enemies.
 
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