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Best entry in a series (all genres)

Taka-Haradin puolipeikko

Filthy Kalinite
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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Bubbles In Memoria
Myth 2: Soulblighter
WinSPMBT for Steel Panthers -series
Ultima V
Fallout 2
Close Combat: Last Stand Arnhem
Dawn of War: Winter Assault
Warcraft 3
Diablo 2
X-Com: Ufo Defense (not counting mods here)
Max Payne 1
GTA: Vice City
Baldur's Gate 2
Freedom Force 1
Leisure Suit Larry 1
Quest for Glory 2
Super Mario World
Fantasy General (I'm referring to old General-series here, not recent "sequel")
Might and Magic VI
Alone in the Dark 2
Master of Orion 1
Ground Control 2
Pro Pinball Big Race USA
System Shock 1
Star Control 2
X-Wing Alliance
Flatout 1
 

DJOGamer PT

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Dark Souls II has an original game world? What? Dark Souls II's setting is the dullest thing ever. Like, wow, some old ladies laugh at you for playing video games, welcome to a place where nobody knows anything and nothing really matters. So originals. It's not anything that really feels like a cohesive, compelling world. It's just stuff. Random, Dark Souls-ish stuff. Every boss fight is a variation on the same thing, and when it isn't, it's pathetically easy. The first game at least felt like an actual adventure. Drangleic is just a bunch of bored people with memory problems.

Of the 3 Dark Souls games, 2 is the most original. 1 is a more classical fantasy setting. 3 is the dullest one. But 2 setting is a familiar place, but with enough unique things to make more memorable and it's own thing in the series.
Also don't be a contrarian, DS2 world is just as compelling and cohesive as any of From games.
Finally, the fact it has the best mechanics, levels and uniqueness in the trilogy defietively make it the best DS.

Thief II's levels are good in themselves, but they don't really come together to make an interesting campaign. Then there's the recycled levels near the end, too. What's it that's supposed to make the levels ‘much better’? Are you another one of those people who hate any mission that isn't about robbing mansions?

They do make interesting an campaign. It's retarded to say otherwise. You can argue that T1 is more interesting, but that doesn't make T2 uninteresting.
There's no repeated levels in T2. T1 on the other hand...
They have overall better design (bigger, more complex - I still find new shit everytime I replay).
Thief is a stealth game. T1 had a rocky development. Because of that there are level whose design doesn't fit that of a stealth. Now you migth say that say that makes the experience more varied sure, but it also isn't as focused and consistent as T2.

Same thing with Doom II. The additions were good and certainly help mods, but mods aren't relevant. The levels are okay... I don't have any problems with the level design, but none of it was really memorable. It felt like an expansion pack. The aesthetic was boring and didn't develop in an interesting way like it did in the first game.

Doom 2 is pretty much Doom but with more stuff and variety.
What wrong about it being an expansion?
The base gameplay was already great. The only thing they had to do is give us more, which they did.

It seems like all three of these games have the same problem of the overall composure of their campaigns being quite lacking. I guess you just don't care.

DS2 world and campgain is just consistent as DS1 and DeS.
T2 is much more consistent with every aspect of it's design than T1.
And while variety in T1 is good, it's somehow bad in Doom 2?

Fallout is Fallout.

Yeah, and Fallout New Vegas is also a Fallout game, and not just in name.
The tone and atmosphere are very much alike (New Vegas is even more like Fallout 1 in this regard than Fallout 2). The game world is still brutal and intriging. The campgain is very enjoyable and replayble, as well as the side quests.
And gameplay wise the New Vegas is better. Why? Well turn based system with only 1 PC is a really dumb design decision, and then Fallout 1 character development system is unbalanced and very easy to break. Two mistakes New Vegas doesn't commit.

Pokemon is such crap.

This would be true if mechanically speaking Pokemon games since 3rd gen weren't more complex than most RPG's.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Interplay's Fallout is unassailable. Anyone who puts NV (built on Oblivion With Guns popamole engine) above it gets written off by me in an instant, never to have their existence acknowledged again.
Fallout 1, 2, and NV all have their strong and weak points that make it difficult for me to rank one clearly above the others. Regardless, this is a strange attitude to have for someone who believes Diablo is a better RPG than any Golden Age classic preceding it. I myself would prefer playing 'blo over any DOS jank, but it's quite another thing to call it superior.
 
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aweigh

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For the Wizardry series I'd say it's a toss-up between Wizardry Empire 2 or maybe Wizardry 5.

For the Elminage series I'd say it's easily Elminage: Gothic.

For the Fallout series it's definitely Fallout 1.

Hmm, can't really think of any other series I care about at the moment.

EDIT: Oh, for Mother series it's definitely Earthbound!
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Messages
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Fallout 1, 2, and NV all have their strong and weak points that make it difficult for me to rank one clearly above the others.

I can't be bargained with nor reasoned with in regard to Fallout being GOAT pure RPG. Give anyone a foot and they take a mile (cf. many 'Dex threads attempting to devalue Fallout's legacy since 2013). The 'Dex should ban anyone who says otherwise, in my humble opinion.

It's one thing to argue strong and weak points; quite another to put a fucking Obsidian game built on the Oblivion With Guns popamole engine above the greatness that is Fallout.

Regardless, this is a strange attitude to have for someone who believes Diablo is a better RPG than any Golden Age classic preceding it. I myself would prefer playing 'blo over any DOS jank, but it's quite another thing to call it superior.

Citation?
 
Last edited:

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
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Ultima 6
Wizardry 6
Eye of the Beholder 2
Fallout
Deus Ex
Doom
Duke Nukem 3d
Zelda - A Link to the Past
UFO - Enemy Unknown
Pools of Darkness
M&M - World of Xeen
Dark Sun - Shattered Lands
Final Fantasy 5
Earthbound
Diablo
Castlevania - Circle of the Moon
Super Metroid
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Messages
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Indeed, because it was an inferior era and the "games" have not stood the test of time. Look at what coders were achieving in other genre during that era.

And this is coming from someone who played Hired Guns on the Amiga.

And yes, Diablo changed everything for the better. It showed everyone how to code, how to design UIs and how to represent combat (which is the most important part of any RPG).

Without it, the genre would have stayed dead.
 

ItsChon

Resident Zoomer
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fallout 1, 2, and NV all have their strong and weak points that make it difficult for me to rank one clearly above the others. Regardless, this is a strange attitude to have for someone who believes Diablo is a better RPG than any Golden Age classic preceding it. I myself would prefer playing 'blo over any DOS jank, but it's quite another thing to call it superior.
I hate Fallout 1 and 2, but I'd rather play either of those games than the gamebyro walking simulator that is Fallout: New Vegas. Absolute decline, and if you're going to like a Fallout game, it's clear it has to be either 1 or 2.
 
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aweigh

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represent combat (which is the most important part of any RPG).

This is the reason I like you. You're one of the few who understands this. It's so crazy that we agree on something so fundamental, yet disagree on every other finer point.

Still, in this new era of Storyfag Codex, where visual novels with bad writing like DE are crowned as New Gods and people spam "all combat is filler trash" memes, we few who still understand the fundamental elements of the RPG need to stick together.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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And yes, Diablo changed everything for the better. It showed everyone how to code, how to design UIs and how to represent combat (which is the most important part of any RPG).

Without it, the genre would have stayed dead.
Not quite sure I agree. BG and Fallout were certainly deep in development when Diablo was released.
 

FeelTheRads

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13,716
I like Diablo (and Diablo 2) but I don't think they had that much GOOD influence on other RPGs. The opposite really.
Their biggest "accomplishment" is the million of clones.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Messages
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Not quite sure I agree. BG and Fallout were certainly deep in development when Diablo was released.

Diablo's development heavily influenced BG. Most of the devs had played it. Even the sprites were originally Diablo-like, but then changed for inferior ones.

I don't have a citation, but I'd put money on Diablo influencing Fallout as well.

Diablo's influence grew very quickly. You had people like Avellone saying he was gonna get Diablo 2.
 

biggestboss

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Feb 16, 2017
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528
Diablo's development heavily influenced BG. Most of the devs had played it. Even the sprites were originally Diablo-like, but then changed for inferior ones.

I don't have a citation, but I'd put money on Diablo influencing Fallout as well.

Diablo's influence grew very quickly. You had people like Avellone saying he was gonna get Diablo 2.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/reflections-on-the-early-days-of-bioware-co-founder-trent-oster

In the middle of the development of Baldur's Gate, the team was stopped dead in its tracks by another game. In December 1996, Blizzard Entertainment released Diablo, a hack-and-slash dungeon crawler. BioWare was a team of developers, but it was also a team of players.

"Diablo showed the potential of the space," Oster remembers. "When Diablo actually came out, it was seriously, three days it took down the company. We did some animation work on the side. I had been at work for close to 24 hours, I finish this animation project, put it to bed, fire up Diablo and I start playing. And I play for another 24 hours. I was at my desk for like three days. There was a lot of terror when we played it for the first time. But for some reason it was good for us. It forced us to get better."
 

biggestboss

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Messages
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RE: Fallout 1 & Diablo

https://www.polygon.com/gaming/2012/3/8/2855595/fallout-gdc-black-isle-interplay-obsidian-bethesda

...

The second threat came in the form of Blizzard's massively popular isometric, multiplayer, real-time RPG Diablo. After the release of Diablo, and it's immediate commercial success, Interplay execs began pressuring Cain to convert Fallout, which was designed from the ground up as a turn-based single player game, to multiplayer and real-time.

"That wasn't going to happen," Cain said. Instead, he again convinced Interplay execs to give his game as originally envisioned a chance. He said development on the game ground to a near halt as he and his team created feasibility studies and painstakingly walked Interplay through their vision for Fallout.

In the end, Interplay again relented, but Cain says it was not a sure thing. Diablo very nearly killed Fallout.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Not quite sure I agree. BG and Fallout were certainly deep in development when Diablo was released.

Diablo's development heavily influenced BG. Most of the devs had played it. Even the sprites were originally Diablo-like, but then changed for inferior ones.

I don't have a citation, but I'd put money on Diablo influencing Fallout as well.

Diablo's influence grew very quickly. You had people like Avellone saying he was gonna get Diablo 2.

Fallout screenshots from May/August 96 before Diablo had been released http://duckandcover.cx/official/gurps/screen.html - mostly the same

I have no idea how old these "old screenshots" of BG are https://web.archive.org/web/19991013125105fw_/http://interplay.com/bgate/oldshots.html but it doesn't seem to be all that different from the finished product.
 
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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath
These are the oldest screenshots of BG I've seen.
alpha.jpg

lkgtv75chcwx.jpg
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
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Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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Roguey

Yep, and when did the first screenshots of Diablo come out?

I'd say Diablo's graphics system influenced every 2d RPG that was on the cards. Baldur's Gate had a Fighter that looked almost identical to the Diablo pally; had a proper overhead swing and stance. Then they changed it to the shit we see today.

Diablo was the king influencer. And mostly in a positive way.
 
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Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
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Still, in this new era of Storyfag Codex, where visual novels with bad writing like DE are crowned as New Gods and people spam "all combat is filler trash" memes, we few who still understand the fundamental elements of the RPG need to stick together.

I love combat, "trashmobs" and all. Story faggotry needs to die, and C&C needs to take a backseat. I played Fallout primarily for its combat, not C&C.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Streets of Rage - 2
Street Fighter - Super Turbo, Alpha 3 comes close
Mortal Kombat - Ultimate 3, MK9 comes close
Marvel vs. Capcom - 2
Tekken - 3
Killer Instinct - KI 2013
Contra - Hard Corps
Quake - 1
Doom - 2
Duke Nukem - 3D
Final Fantasy - Tactics
Warcraft - 2
Starcraft - Brood War
Diablo - 1
Baldur's Gate - 1
Ultima - VII
Legacy of Kain - Blood Omen 1
Fallout - 1
SoulCalibur - 1
Unreal Tournament - 1/1999
Thief - 1
Hitman - Blood Money
Dark Souls - 2
Elder Scrolls - Daggerfall
Shadowrun (16bit) - Genesis version
Shadowrun Returns - Dragonfall
Resident Evil - Nemesis
Tetris - TetriNet from the '90s/early '00s
Double Dragon - 2
Classicvania - Bloodlines
Metroidvania - Circle of the Moon
Metroid - Fusion
Super Mario - 3
Zelda - 2, Adventure of Link
Metal Gear Solid - 1, Ghost Babel comes close
Tenchu - 1, Wrath of Heaven comes close
King of Fighters - '98
Fatal Fury - Mark of the Wolves
Alien vs. Predator - 2
Syndicate - American Revolution
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Messages
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Yep, and when did the first screenshots of Diablo come out?
From what I can tell from https://www.mobygames.com/game/diablo/screenshots and elsewhere, a couple of background shots and a monster shot were released in September 1995, but actual gameplay with a UI wasn't shown outside of Blizzard until E3 1996. I suppose it could have had influence on Baldur's Gate, but Fallout? Nah.

I hate Fallout 1 and 2, but I'd rather play either of those games than the gamebyro walking simulator that is Fallout: New Vegas. Absolute decline, and if you're going to like a Fallout game, it's clear it has to be either 1 or 2.

  • Art style - Fallout 1 and 2 win
  • Atmosphere - Fallout 1
  • Sound effects - tie really
  • Death animations - Fallout 1 and 2
  • Music - New Vegas since it has Morgan's tracks, licensed music on the radio, and Zur's theme
  • Builds - New Vegas has more viable character concepts from start to finish. All skills receive plenty of use.
  • Lack of minigames - Fallout 1 and 2
  • Attributes' affect on character ability - Fallout 1 and 2, 3/NV deliberately decreased its importance (though it's still somewhat important)
  • Item design - New Vegas. Fallout 1 AP ammo is interchangeable with regular ammo, Fallout 2 AP ammo that wasn't created specifically for 2 is objectively worse because they used a bad damage formula. Sawyer was far more meticulous (to a fault, according to Chris Avellone). Fallout armor progression also only goes one way: everyone ends up with Hardened Power Armor in 1 and Advanced Power Armor in 2. High tier light/medium/heavy armors are all viable in New Vegas. Additionally, the turbo plasma rifle is the undisputed best final weapon Fallout (thanks, Feargus). 2 had a few more options, New Vegas has more. In Fallout you can bring up the inventory and use as many stimpaks as you need to heal yourself back to full; in New Vegas's hardcore mode, every healing item does so over time so you can't abuse it
  • Combat design - No standouts really, but New Vegas does get some benefit from not needing a mod to speed up animations to an absurd degree during large fights
  • Exploration - None that stands out from the rest, all good
  • Writing - New Vegas has the most consistently well-written dialogue
  • Amount of content - 2 and New Vegas are both good here
  • Narrative reactivity and C&C - New Vegas has the most and the best
  • Stealth - New Vegas isn't a blind reloadfest, can actually be an enjoyable way to play
  • Pickpocketing - all are disappointing here
  • Inventory - they're all kind of annoying really
  • Character interface - Fallout 1 and 2 for being able to see everything on one screen
  • Being the first, laying down the groundwork - Obviously Fallout
 

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