NSFW Best Thread Ever [No SJW-related posts allowed]

[Pope Amole II]

What Jasede says.

The hardest thing in Dota 2 (any any moba, probably, though I don't have much experience with other ones) is not actually doing something - it's knowing what you can do, what you can't do and what you must do. It's a very punishing game because you make few extra steps - bang, you're dead. Next time, you don't make those steps - whoosh, you've missed a kill opportunity and opponent won the lane. Tired from all that shit, you just try to farm safely - huzzah, opposing team's anti-mage gets incredibly farmed and fucks all of you ten times over.

It's all about decision making and extremely hard decision making - even at the pro scene the skill level is not high enough atm (if talking about european & american one). Championships finals are full of "let's go feed on the ramp" moments and are more about "who fails less" than anything less.

 

[Kane]

I played Dota 2 very briefly.
I can tell you'd have to play it 2000+ hours while actively trying to improve yourself to get "decent" or "passable" at it.

No, my point is that being successful has nothing at all to do with actual training and it is in fact more of a "spur of a moment" thing; games are decided on the pickscreen 90% of the time due to inherent imbalances in the gameplay, like the carry/supporter mechanics, the ability to freely chain stuns (bah, and I thought this shit was culled 20 years ago. detestable), item imbalances, gold requirement imbalances, etc. etc. etc.

the right clicking stuff was just me mocking a failed game for being a failed game, but you in your furry-induced all-out rage-autism obviously missed that part.

The hardest thing in Dota 2 (any any moba, probably, though I don't have much experience with other ones) is not actually doing something - it's knowing what you can do, what you can't do and what you must do. It's a very punishing game because you make few extra steps - bang, you're dead. Next time, you don't make those steps - whoosh, you've missed a kill opportunity and opponent won the lane. Tired from all that shit, you just try to farm safely - huzzah, opposing team's anti-mage gets incredibly farmed and fucks all of you ten times over.

I am sure dota's retarded audience cut your words into their arms.

It's all about decision making and extremely hard decision making - even at the pro scene the skill level is not high enough atm (if talking about european & american one). Championships finals are full of "let's go feed on the ramp" moments and are more about "who fails less" than anything less.

Even the pro scene, that has to study what little there is to study regarding team composition, agrees it's all about luck.

 

[Kane]

I had played DOTA back in WC3 days and I was pretty damn good at it, albeit mostly as team support, never was any good at planning out pushes and shit like that. Knowing what your opponents may do and how they can do it is a key factor to any encounter. And I don't mean general strategy but all the details regarding their character's abilities. Range, damage, activation time, animation, nuances of projectile visual effects (i.e.: whether some of them do damage on connect or are they homing), their mana cost, etc etc. Game was pretty damn demanding but it felt rewarding as fuck as well. At one point, I just lost all interest though. Just glancing past all individual character's abilities and gearing options, the core gameplay stopped being appealing.

Knowing what your opponen can/can't do is somehow special in dota, because...?

I tried DoTA 2 about two months ago, played precisely 2 games and realized how shit I had become without practice but really didn't care enough anymore to even bother with it past that point.

I play a handful of games per month if at all, and in one I go 20/0 and in another I go 0/20. There is no "getting good", no consistency you can build up. Your success solely depends on what has been picked. You can't practice this game, it's either facerolling the enemy or getting facerolled with 1 out of 1000 games being a GG, because both parties got a good lineup consisting of the few existing good and unbroken heroes.

 

[Kane]

I had played DOTA back in WC3 days and I was pretty damn good at it, albeit mostly as team support, never was any good at planning out pushes and shit like that. Knowing what your opponents may do and how they can do it is a key factor to any encounter. And I don't mean general strategy but all the details regarding their character's abilities. Range, damage, activation time, animation, nuances of projectile visual effects (i.e.: whether some of them do damage on connect or are they homing), their mana cost, etc etc. Game was pretty damn demanding but it felt rewarding as fuck as well. At one point, I just lost all interest though. Just glancing past all individual character's abilities and gearing options, the core gameplay stopped being appealing.

Knowing what your opponen can/can't do is somehow special in dota, because...?

Because of variety of heroes and abilities?

An absolute novel concept. 11/10 ESPORTS GOTY. What your opponent can and can't do is actually fairly limited in a game of dota 2, in fact the whole game is designed about being extremely transparent. That's also part of the reason why dota is so goddamn boring. Same shit, every game.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

So if pick Terran, 90% of the time I win.

 

[circ]

Butthurt MMO players called out for wasting their moniez.

 

[Jasede]

!?!

 

[Jaesun]

Josh Sawyer ‏@jesawyer21m
happy birthday @Feargus pic.twitter.com/Lkv2D5ukty

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I love the thick irony of an SC2 player criticizing other games for being bad e-sports.

 

[Average Manatee]

At least SC2 is a game. Dota is still a custom map.

Take RTS, let the AI control the army. Take out the resources. Take out the builds. Take out the macromanagement. Take out the maps. What do we have left? One player pretending they are l337 because they can micro a single hero. Woopdeefuckingdoo, a 5 year old can micro a single unit. "But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

RTS for babbies. No wonder it's popular the same way FPS for babbies (console shooters) are popular. At least CoD has multiple maps though.

 

[Jasede]

It's nothing like that.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

At least SC2 is a game. Dota is still a custom map.

Take RTS, let the AI control the army. Take out the resources. Take out the builds. Take out the macromanagement. Take out the maps. What do we have left? One player pretending they are l337 because they can micro a single hero. Woopdeefuckingdoo, a 5 year old can micro a single unit. "But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

RTS for babbies. No wonder it's popular the same way FPS for babbies (console shooters) are popular. At least CoD has multiple maps though.

I think you might have missed the crucial fact that it's a team game, bro. Your argument can be likened to stating that football is really easy because dribbling a ball around an empty field is really easy.

 

[Kane]

I love the thick irony of an SC2 player criticizing other games for being bad e-sports.

sc2 = ESPORTS god

that dota2 is bad has nothing to do with sc2 shortcomings though. and neither the fact that it is a teamgame. dota2 can be rescued, but the neccessary steps required would mean that alot of shitfaces across the planet would off themselves, when their darling rapetrain is put on level field. won't be able to yell how awesome they are at clicking their buttans anymore...

 

[Cowboy Moment]

I love the thick irony of an SC2 player criticizing other games for being bad e-sports.

sc2 = ESPORTS god

that dota2 is bad has nothing to do with sc2 shortcomings though. and neither the fact that it is a teamgame. dota2 can be rescued, but the neccessary steps required would mean that alot of shitfaces across the planet would off themselves, when their darling rapetrain is put on level field. won't be able to yell how awesome they are at clicking their buttans anymore...

I detect a fair amount of butthurt there, raw. Maybe you should try and find a team for yourself? During my short tryst with WoW, I was a pretty decent 3v3 player, and trying to do that with randoms would've been absolutely impossible. With like-minded bros, it was quite fun and challenging, even though WoW's PvP sucks ass in general. Trying to play team games with pickup groups competitively strikes me as a recipe for extreme frustration.

 

[Average Manatee]

At least SC2 is a game. Dota is still a custom map.

Take RTS, let the AI control the army. Take out the resources. Take out the builds. Take out the macromanagement. Take out the maps. What do we have left? One player pretending they are l337 because they can micro a single hero. Woopdeefuckingdoo, a 5 year old can micro a single unit. "But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

RTS for babbies. No wonder it's popular the same way FPS for babbies (console shooters) are popular. At least CoD has multiple maps though.

I think you might have missed the crucial fact that it's a team game, bro. Your argument can be likened to stating that football is really easy because dribbling a ball around an empty field is really easy.

"But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

Nope, didn't miss it.

Funny how Dota needs 5 players to control 5 units while SC2 needs 1 player to control a hundred. Would SC2 suddenly have 100x more depth if 100 different people were playing on one side controlling one unit each? No? Then why do you pretend that is the case with WC3->Dota? Interestingly there was actually a mode in SC where you could have multiple players on the same race working together. Noone used it because it was retarded shit.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

At least SC2 is a game. Dota is still a custom map.

Take RTS, let the AI control the army. Take out the resources. Take out the builds. Take out the macromanagement. Take out the maps. What do we have left? One player pretending they are l337 because they can micro a single hero. Woopdeefuckingdoo, a 5 year old can micro a single unit. "But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

RTS for babbies. No wonder it's popular the same way FPS for babbies (console shooters) are popular. At least CoD has multiple maps though.

I think you might have missed the crucial fact that it's a team game, bro. Your argument can be likened to stating that football is really easy because dribbling a ball around an empty field is really easy.

"But there is so much tactical depth!" Yeah, there's that in every fucking game, they have that in addition to mechanical depth.

Nope, didn't miss it.

You have. It's not about tactics, it's about team communication and coordination. Football doesn't have much tactical depth either, it's all about the execution.

 

[Average Manatee]

You have. It's not about tactics, it's about team communication and coordination. Football doesn't have much tactical depth either, it's all about the execution.

So you admit that Dota has no prerequisite skills, only the ability to herd 4 other retards over the internet into a semi-coordinated state?

Alright, I see we agree.

Football has plenty of tactical depth. Football requires (physical) skills. Football also requires teamwork. Whatever teamwork you may think Dota requires (hint: no more than any other team FPS/RTS/RPG), it doesn't make up for lacking entirely in the other two areas.

 

[Kane]

During my short tryst with WoW, I was a pretty decent[...]

 

[Zewp]

No, not really. I don't even like DOTA but I feel I need to defend it here, because it has a lot more tactical depth than you give it credit for. Different heroes play differently and have vastly different roles and one player not understanding what his role is or what he is supposed to be doing can cost the entire game for the rest of the team. Knowing your hero and his abilities, as well as how to use this abilities in certain situations is crucial to being good at DOTA. And it's not like even just knowing what your role and abilities are automatically makes you good either. You actually have to be good at playing your hero too.

It might not have the most tactical depth of any game ever, but DOTA is not entirely without tactical depth and player skill plays a large role in the game.

 

[Undead Phoenix]

I love the thick irony of an SC2 player criticizing other games for being bad e-sports.

You're a fucking retard. It's like 100x harder to A-move my flock of Mutalisks and Lings/Banes while following a build order I copied from someone than to micro one tiny spellcaster with ten active abilities and zero room for error. I can afford to lose my entire control group of Infestors to a misclick and still win because SC2 requires so much more skill than some shitty little mod.

Spoiler

Seriously though, anyone with the ability of cognitive thought can see they're require virtually completely different skillsets despite springing from the same genre. Average Manatee just trolled you like a pro.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

You have. It's not about tactics, it's about team communication and coordination. Football doesn't have much tactical depth either, it's all about the execution.

So you admit that Dota has no prerequisite skills, only the ability to herd 4 other retards over the internet into a semi-coordinated state?

Alright, I see we agree.

Football has plenty of tactical depth. Football requires (physical) skills. Football also requires teamwork. Whatever teamwork you may think Dota requires (hint: no more than any other team FPS/RTS/RPG), it doesn't make up for lacking entirely in the other two areas.

It's actually kind of funny, because, like you say, Dota is basically about teamwork and understanding the way all the elements (champions, builds, map features) interact at any given point in time to make the best decision; thing is, you can level a very similar criticism against SC2, where being able to scout and immediately intuit what the opponent is doing exactly is the most important skill, given the game's dumbed down macro and barely existent micro.

I don't think Dota is particularly difficult, but I do think singling it out is a bit unfair. Kind of a pity that one of the few truly competitive and difficult games (Quake Live) has so little traction in the ESPORTS world.

During my short tryst with WoW, I was a pretty decent[...]

To my defense, I was young back then. And unlike the denizens of our very own distinguished MMO forum, I learned my lesson.

 

[Kane]

there are good reasons for singling it out.

And unlike the denizens of our very own distinguished MMO forum, I learned my lesson.

apparently not.

 

[Gerrard]

sc2 = ESPORTS god

Only until SKorea gets nuked.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Funny how Dota needs 5 players to control 5 units while SC2 needs 1 player to control a hundred. Would SC2 suddenly have 100x more depth if 100 different people were playing on one side controlling one unit each? No? Then why do you pretend that is the case with WC3->Dota?

Jesus christ

 

[Excidium]

I almost got pulled into that debate until I saw that blatant trolling post. Both are shit games dominated by asian robots, move the fuck on