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Game News Bethesda: Making Games for the PC Gamers

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by VentilatorOfDoom, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. circ Arcane

    circ
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    How to make a game like BioWare: take a shit on stage, mold it into the shape of a heart, and then get an audience to watch it.

    How to make a game like Obsidian: take a shit on stage, step on it, and then get an audience to watch it.

    How to make a game like Bethesda: take several dumps on stage and then get an audience to watch them.
     
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  2. Suchy Arcane

    Suchy
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    Gahahahahah so I checked the OP's link and bumped on this.
    I admit, I use that for Arma2, which is actually helpful. But in this case it's LARP overload making your self dignity melt. Right the Codex alley.
     
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  3. gromit Arcane

    gromit
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    Without irony, I think that's likely because of [​IMG]

    I mostly mean the concept on display, but of course its advocate too. The precise word for the cause of nearly all of the "wrong things" in their games is disregard. Hand-waved lore changes, poor balance across classes, funky physics, the absence of alternate quest endings they must have been accidentally foreshadowing, leaving compile-time optimization off ostensibly because there's something rotten in your scripting...

    There are few ways to explain that outside of "cared way more about something else that day, if at all."

    What they clearly do regard is [​IMG]. For all I know
    Love it or hate it, it's obviously not not working. They'll probably have to clean up for the next go-round, though: they're running out of cherries to pop, and their heels are now an excellent target for the nippers.
     
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  4. Rhalle Magister

    Rhalle
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    Hilarious that if you could remove all the redundant code junk, you would see a 100% FPS increase-- and apparently even without more threading. Real multicore optimization could perhaps mean 2-3-400% increase.

    That's some serious fucking Bethfail.

    And you know what? I bet almost all ports are this bad, but Skyrim has sold enough copies to draw real attention to itself, and from the right people.
     
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  5. racofer Thread Incliner

    racofer
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    This is... just... :retarded: :retarded: :retarded: :retarded:
     
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  6. ZeniBot Cipher

    ZeniBot
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    Thankyou Codex for reminding me that people still have some damn standards when it comes to modding.

    Bethesda's community gives modders a bad name. There is a flood of sexual related mods here that I've never seen before happen in a mod community, sure there were nude mods for games, but these were usually shunned for looking terrible and detracting from the experience.. even to the extent of detracting from the character and their character development. As far as I am concerned, Bethesda's mod community is an insult to modding and its foundations. The few good modders out there are the champions of it, and frankly shouldn't be working on Bethesda's games for them, they should be out developing their own games.. because they clearly have better understanding of game development and design- I would gladly support them if they did this.

    But soooo much crap that exists in the mod community, many of them in this present generation of modders just don't fucking get it. I can't believe that the TES community actually praises the sex mods. There is something seriously wrong there. When ever I saw a nude mod for Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines most of the time people said "Why the fuck did you do this? the characters were already provocative enough, a bit of subtlety goes a long way".

    For a game that is as popular and mainstream as skyrim, being hailed as the savors of the industry, it is disgusting the double standards that exist, allowing them to empower people to create the most morally depraved content I've ever seen in a game..

    The mainstream RPG modder is a sick son of a bitch that is not fit for life. And the few good ones that do exist in my opinion should get the hell out of there ASAP. Its just not worth supporting these games. I would rather see those people go indie and make their own interpretations of Bethesda's games.

    It is disgusting that their games win GOTY awards yet at the same time empower people to produce such filth. To me.. it is essentially the industry endorsing it.
     
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  7. Metro Arcane Beg Auditor

    Metro
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    It's because the TES series attracts more E-Larpers than it actually does people who like RPGs. Their idea of an RPG is a game where you 'play a role' rather than elements like mutually exclusive character builds, choice and consequence, challenging and interesting quest content, etc. If they can E-Larp as a gay Khajit married to a burly Nord and live in a quaint bungalow by the frozen ice lake nothing else matters!
     
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  8. Gragt Arcane Patron

    Gragt
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    Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
    Of course if Obsidian releases a game in that state, the outrage will know no bounds.
     
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  9. Kz3r0 Arcane Sad Loser

    Kz3r0
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    They shipped ten millions of copies, why they should waste money on making a proper game?
    It's Capitalism 101.
     
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  10. Clockwork Knight Arcane

    Clockwork Knight
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    :lol:
     
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  11. thesheeep Arcane Patron

    thesheeep
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    Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    If they failed to get at least some code optimization right, I wonder how they managed to avoid memory leaks.

    IMHO, both is almost equally hard to fully avoid.
    Though both have different options of debugging them, from simple stuff like Virtual Leak Detector to more complex solutions full solutions that allow you to track in detail wich function in which context costs how much performance.
    The last ones are rarely for free, though...

    Seriously, this guy wrote about simple getter functions not being inline.
    For people who don't know, this is a normal function from a class named SuperClass:
    Code:
    int SuperClass::getFavouriteValue()
    {
        return _favouriteValue;
    }
    And this is the inline version:
    Code:
    inline int SuperClass::getFavouriteValue()
    {
        return _favouriteValue;
    }
    And yes, that does make the code faster in most cases. Here is a nice description: http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/i ... ml#faq-9.1
     
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  12. villain of the story Arcane

    villain of the story
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    I have a feeling that some of the random crashes are a "fix" for memory leak, as in, they couldn't fix memory leak but they track it and when it reaches a point, the game terminates.
     
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  13. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    The performance degrading over time clearly indicates that they didn't avoid them.
     
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  14. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    After reusing the same engine for so many games over so many years, you'd think they'd make the effort to make it a stable platform for development. It's not a one-off thing, after all.

    I wonder what WoW's codebase is like...
     
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  15. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    By the way, wasn't there a case with Fallout 3 where some guy gave it to his students to analyze the process, and they ended up finding hundreds of memory leaks and errors causing crashes?
     
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  16. Oarfish Prophet

    Oarfish
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    Not sure if serious. You will fit in just fine in GD. Say Hi to liberal
     
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  17. racofer Thread Incliner

    racofer
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    We should expect to have embedded solutions for WoW anytime soon where, to run the game, you only need a single line of code.

    Code:
    # Call WoW
    # JMP %EBP
     
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  18. Wunderpurps Educated

    Wunderpurps
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    Hard to believe I am coming to the defense of bethesda but most of what they said in there is complete bullshit.

    There's absolutely nothing automatic about SSE in visual studio unless the new and unbearable version finally changed that, which I am sure it didn't because they don't even allow inline assembly any more.

    When you select those flags it just means that the LIBRARIES will use SSE or SSE2. However your dot product is going to be written by gamebrio engine makers. In a cross platform engine or really any engine worth a shit, this is the case, and virtually all math stuff will be coded by the engine maker or else shit sucks.

    Gamebrio is a shit engine so everything is written in a slow and unoptimized way, but simply switching some compiler flags is going to do exactly jack and quat.

    VISUAL STUDIO IS USELESS AT VIRTUALLY ALL OPTIMIZATION. The only thing it does well is inlining, so you can compile away some getters and setters, which will does very little for performance.

    So yes it COULD be much faster on PCs, but it is not a matter of just clicking some almost meaningless optimization options in the project settings, it would take moving to a less shitty engine or at the least replacing some core libraries of the engine. But unltimately the engine maker and customers don't care. The PC is faster than the console anyway so it really doesn't matter how unoptimized the PC version is, from their perspective.
     
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  19. Wunderpurps Educated

    Wunderpurps
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    Most of those are BS, too.

    Singletons get reported as leaks, and in C++ it's hard to avoid them, but they are meaningless.

    The problems with fallout aren't really memory leaks per se as bad general resource management that balloons up over time.

    The whole entire world's data is one big chunk. Then all the people have any offset from their initial state to store stuff. As you travel around and do stuff the game data increases and increased until it gets too big and then shit randomly breaks.
     
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  20. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    If you'd read about this, you'd see that, yes, inlining does seem to have great performance benefits for Skyrim.
     
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  21. Wunderpurps Educated

    Wunderpurps
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    I read it all, it's just nonsense.

    100% speedup? That's extremely naive.

    "register pressure" is actually exactly how you want to have your program. It's hard for people to comprehend but the number of instructions you execute has very little do do with performance on modern CPUs.

    If you are a programmer you have no doubt heard that bottlenecks are where optimization matters. The bottleneck with code execution is getting the data to the CPU, and in some cases of bloated code getting the code itself to the CPU.

    So this guy is saying that returning blah->x is 100% faster than returning blah.getX(). Well it might be but only in a sense that makes no difference.

    Typical execution goes like this:

    1. Fetch some data 200 time units if not in cache, 20 if in cache
    2. do something. Sometimes very long, in this case it's going to be 2 time units for return blah->getX() and 1 time unit for return blah->x

    So really this has no effect at all on the real performance. On the other hand if they reduced the size of the blah class and quanitized the data, IE they made it smaller by forcing you to execute more instructions, it would be much faster in all real world scenarios.

    But even when we look at this optimization it comes back to the idea of bottlenecks. The biggest question you ask is usally if this increases the frame rate any. On gamebryo like every console engine out there the skinning and most other computationally intense tasks are done on the GPU since the CPU is totally useless. Meaning that the CPU is not bound because your PC is much faster than a console anyway. So again your real performance gains are going to be very little, if anything.
     
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  22. Infinitron I post news Patron

    Infinitron
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    RPG Wokedex Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I hear you, and yet these guys are claiming that yes, the game is CPU bound, and yes, they are getting striking FPS improvements. You're saying it's all lies?
     
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  23. Wunderpurps Educated

    Wunderpurps
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    It's more like delusions than lies.
     
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  24. Overweight Manatee Scholar

    Overweight Manatee
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    The author himself said that SSE has negligible performance benefits compared to un-fucking certain functions that are ridiculously wasteful. Furthermore he didn't say that Visual Studio would handle that optimization automatically. I believe it is true that SSE vectorization isn't handled by Visual Studio, but GCC and the Intel compiler do.

    None of this explains why the engine which is 99.5% the same as FO3's is suddenly 5x shittier.

    Visual Studio can be good to excellent at optimizing, depending on the code you provide it. Of course, if you are already writing very good, fast code then your compiler can't do that much more to help you. Bethesda is not running into that problem, I believe.

    The modder certainly didn't change the engine or replace the libraries, and he managed 40% speedup with a ridiculously hacky workaround. I don't find his +100% performance figure at all unbelievable.
     
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  25. Wunderpurps Educated

    Wunderpurps
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    Does he have 100% or even 40% more FPS? No. Numbers like that are meaningless with no context, especially with an up to prepended to them.

    When you make a naive test and boot up the game for 2 minutes then memory is not fragmented and you get no cache misses, and you get overoptimistic benchmark results.

    So you play 5 minutes and there's zero cache misses, then the gets and sets could possibly be slower I guess. When you play for a few hours then things are less rosy, and then your instruction count doesn't matter at all because memory is fragmented and the weak spot is fetching data into memory.

    So a few guys in a few cases seeminly got much better performance for a few minutes not specified in FPS, but most people even on short runs are not seeing more than 5-10 fps difference. I'm guess if they loaded the same game midway into the game and did the same stuff for about an hour the frame difference would be more like 1-2 FPS most of the time.

    With the optimization, what can I say. I know for a fact you won't get any SSE instructions from your own code without writing them out yourself. When I run non graphics code I only get about 30% speedup compared to full debug mode, and the only option that does much aside from removing debug data is inlining. For graphics code it all depends on what your app is doing but hopefully if you are a decent programmer with a decent engine you are only CPU bound when you have legitimate reason, such as calculating a bunch of paths.
     
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