BG2's map is a huge let down

[Loostreaks]

BG2 was improvement, but traditional Bioware design: if something does not work, cut it, instead of improving it.

Most of "content" in BG1 exploration consisted of "quirky" npcs waiting for the player to resolve their life-threatening problems. Clear fog of war, plus trash mobs galore ( hobgoblins, xvarts, kobolds, bandits)...nuke them before they see you and cheese the AI that's dumb enough to only target anything closest: put fighter in plate in front and let it run circles around them while they run to catch it. And hope to god, they dpn't roll a 20 on hit. Some "exploration".

In general, maps need to be expanded, npcs roam the map, add more object/environment interaction, create unique map scenarios ( preferably on timer).

 

[mfkndggrfll]

BG2 was improvement, but traditional Bioware design: if something does not work, cut it, instead of improving it.

Most of "content" in BG1 exploration consisted of "quirky" npcs waiting for the player to resolve their life-threatening problems. Clear fog of war, plus trash mobs galore ( hobgoblins, xvarts, kobolds, bandits)...nuke them before they see you and cheese the AI that's dumb enough to only target anything closest: put fighter in plate in front and let it run circles around them while they run to catch it. And hope to god, they dpn't roll a 20 on hit. Some "exploration".

In general, maps need to be expanded, npcs roam the map, add more object/environment interaction, create unique map scenarios ( preferably on timer).

BG1's exploration was more than that and these quirky NPCs were worth exploring for.

I just did the BG2 quest where you give ale and swords to kids and they end up in a cave in the same map. If this was in BG1 you would have found them on adjacent map tiles.

BG2 also has plenty of "dead" locations like empty houses that only become active with NPCs once you trigger the related quest.

 

[JRIz]

Teleportation-based quest progression as in AoD or Blackguards is much better than running around on mostly empty isometric maps. First, the activity itself is boring, and second, other bad design decision are often implied by this.

What games are you referring to that had "mostly empty" isometric maps?

Please tell me you're not going to claim the Infinity Engine games.

Many games suffer from this. Arcanum is another example where exploration does feel pleasant but if it was a tad more empty and had a little more trash loot, it would quickly become too tedious to enjoy. I mean, companion inventory management is already a thing in it. Or take Ultima 7. I think half of the gameplay consists in sorting through the stuff you found, which is a shame.

And yes, by "mostly empty isometric maps" I was pretty much exactly referring to Baldur's Gate. This map, for instance, is only empty/filler. Why include it?

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Why include it?

To let vampiric wolves tear obsessive map cleaners' low level party a new one. That's what happened to me on my first playthrough and I sure remember that damn map.

 

[laclongquan]

Agreed! Any wanderer is going to get their asses reamed hard wandering through it unprepared.

 

[laclongquan]

Thanks for the replies, guys! I have a l'il announcement to make, and I know some of you will be happy to hear it.

I'm not going to be posting on the 'Dex anymore. I'm just going to log out, lurk from now on and commentate on the odd public forum post (GoG, reddit, 'Dex).

Thank you to everyone who has challenged me over the years. It's been fun to post here, but it's time to move on.

Cheers!

Lilura.

If you are leaving too long I will start posting about Baldur's Gate 2 Reloaded on NWN2 progress.

 

[Jvegi]

Thanks for the replies, guys! I have a l'il announcement to make, and I know some of you will be happy to hear it.

I'm not going to be posting on the 'Dex anymore. I'm just going to log out, lurk from now on and commentate on the odd public forum post (GoG, reddit, 'Dex).

Thank you to everyone who has challenged me over the years. It's been fun to post here, but it's time to move on.

Cheers!

Lilura.

If you are leaving too long I will start posting about Baldur's Gate 2 Reloaded on NWN2 progress.

Oh yeah lady, before you go. What's your take on the BG2 Redux project? Perhaps you could blog about it?

As for the BG 2 exploration. There are those weird three forest locations tgat open up after Underdark. What's up with those? They're so random and forgettable. What was the point of those?

 

[Lagole Gon]

Hey, Lilura, before you go, can you translate Baldur's Gate manga I bought on the internet?

Spoiler

I know you are chinese, but it's pretty much the same thing as japanese, right? Good neighbours n stuff.

 

[Elex]

Agreed! Any wanderer is going to get their asses reamed hard wandering through it unprepared.

in that map there is also 2 npc that talk about the floor.

 

[vorvek]

In Baldur's Gate 2 the characters get quite far in power level compared to Baldur's Gate 1. What might have been a cute little random challenge for a low level party in BG 1 poses no threat at all to a level 10 character from BG2. Having the player spend two hours traversing shit maps and helping harlots in distress on their way to fight a shadow dragon gets old fast.

 

[Dux]

The main problem with modern CRPG world building can be condensed into one word: Why?

Why is this area here? Why is this object here? Why is this person here? Etc.

Baldur's Gate had tons and tons of stuff that had nothing to do with anything. Areas that weren't packed with things to do or were otherwise significant in the grand scheme of things. They were just there. Just because. Free to be explored or not, it didn't really matter. That is why I like the Sword Coast as a game world. It offered areas where there were things to do and discover, as well as areas that were comparatively empty. It creates a kind of immersion; that the world is there simply because it's there and not because it's been meticulously catered to you. When you actually do encounter something significant, it comes as bit of a surprise or at least a change of pace. The old BioWare worked to create a detailed mini-world that at the same time showed restraint. There were odd, seemingly irrelevant encounters sprinkled about the maps. You could wander around and find an astronomer stargazing or a solitary ogre trying to have dinner by a campfire. No real point to either of them but there they were. That's how you build a world. You mix it up.

Baldur's Gate 2 abandoned all of this, however.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

And yes, by "mostly empty isometric maps" I was pretty much exactly referring to Baldur's Gate. This map, for instance, is only empty/filler. Why include it?

Spoiler

What? Contained in this map:

Temple with a powerful priest (shop, curatives, Stone to Flesh Scrolls, etc.)
Resolution to the Bassilus quest.
Resolution to Wyvern bounty quest.
A group of bandits that try to rob you.
A petrified NPC which can be revived with scrolls from the temple. Provides XP and forewarning of the adjacent area swarming with Basiliks.
A good fight with a powerful wolf pack.
Two or three traveling NPCs to interact with. One of which tries to bluff you.
Also, one or two random spawn combat encounters.

 

[laclongquan]

Lilura has made up her mind. Dont confuse her with facts~

 

[Melcar]

Why include it?

To let vampiric wolves tear obsessive map cleaners' low level party a new one. That's what happened to me on my first playthrough and I sure remember that damn map.

The first time I played that map and got to that area I was like "oh great, more wolves". After several rounds of whacking away I was baffled why one particular wolf was not dying. Luckily the encounter is near the edge of the map, so before my main got killed I just exited the map (only Jaheira was alive, Xzar, Monty and Khalid were mauled to death). Took me a while to figure out I needed magic weapons. I would always avoid that map (just explore the nearby temple area) until I got out of the Nashkel mines. It wasn't until my third or fourth playthrough that I stumbled across the group of hobgoblin bandits in that same map were the leader had a +1 two handed sword.

 

[JDR13]

Are maps supposed to have an encounter or dungeon every 10 feet? That would be incredibly unrealistic. Most of the maps in BG already have an implausible amount of creatures within a certain radius of each other.

 

[Storyfag]

The main problem with modern CRPG world building can be condensed into one word: Why?

Why is this area here? Why is this object here? Why is this person here? Etc.

Baldur's Gate had tons and tons of stuff that had nothing to do with anything. Areas that weren't packed with things to do or were otherwise significant in the grand scheme of things. They were just there. Just because. Free to be explored or not, it didn't really matter. That is why I like the Sword Coast as a game world. It offered areas where there were things to do and discover, as well as areas that were comparatively empty. It creates a kind of immersion; that the world is there simply because it's there and not because it's been meticulously catered to you. When you actually do encounter something significant, it comes as bit of a surprise or at least a change of pace. The old BioWare worked to create a detailed mini-world that at the same time showed restraint. There were odd, seemingly irrelevant encounters sprinkled about the maps. You could wander around and find an astronomer stargazing or a solitary ogre trying to have dinner by a campfire. No real point to either of them but there they were. That's how you build a world. You mix it up.

Baldur's Gate 2 abandoned all of this, however.

Pretty much this. You need mundane stuff in a gameworld for the extraordinary stuff to be extraordinary.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Every time you make Boo cry, you lose 1 point of rep.

GOD NO!

 

[Roguey]

I know you are chinese, but it's pretty much the same thing as japanese, right? Good neighbours n stuff.

These comics were translated years ago. Took some digging, but I found it.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I know you are chinese, but it's pretty much the same thing as japanese, right? Good neighbours n stuff.

These comics were translated years ago. Took some digging, but I found it.

1. I'm just trying to get attention of our mysterious dragon lady.
2. Nope. The whole doujin is not aviliable on internets. It's... maybe 60% of the whole thing. I think the author uploaded it before the release, because some details were retouched.

 

[Roguey]

1. I'm just trying to get attention of our mysterious dragon lady.
2. Nope. The whole doujin is not aviliable on internets. It's... maybe 60% of the whole thing. I think the author uploaded it before the release, because some details were retouched.

I would rate this post informative if I could.

 

[Devoidless]

My first time through BG1, I really loved how large the entire world felt. Each area was a brand new adventure! Oooh, is that a cave over there? Holy crap, that's a talking chicken! Oh god, it's a pack of vampiric wolves ready to use my 4th level sorcerer as a chew toy! FLEE!
It was also really fun finding out how to access new areas based off of connecting areas. Figuring out that some areas were accessible only through leaving one tile a certain direction. I can't even explain why, but it might fall under the banner of 'Adventure!' or something of the kind. Even trudging through the city was alright, if not as magical.
*Fast forward 15 years and countless plays*
Time to turn in this quest! Now I just gotta enter the area inevitably from the wrong side and watch the party pathfind into a fence halfway to the tavern.
God damn it! I have to trudge through that shitty forest filled with bandits? I know where the fortress is! That guy just told me right before I turned him into a fine red mist!
Okay time to go to that tower. The very tall tower. In the middle of the city. Which likely has street names and addresses. Guess I'll walk through the streets to have nothing of interest happen for the entire duration.

It was fun, albeit time consuming, when it was a fresh and new adventure. Once that wore off it just became a chore. I already know where everything is and the joy of discovery isn't there anymore. I'd be fine with an option to toggle on/off 'Travel to Location'. Hell, I'd probably use it every so often but still explore certain areas. Maybe. Occasionally. And yes, I realize that all of this really has no comparison between BG1 and BG2.

Tl,dr:
Was fun at first, didn't age well over several plays. Optional fast travel would be cool. No comparison between games in post, deal with it.

 

[111111111]

Every single thing this guy says sounds like a massive troll.
Cannot take this topic seriously

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Was fun at first, didn't age well over several plays.

To be fair, not many (if any ?) CRPG did. I agree with most of your post though.

 

[Devoidless]

To be fair, not many (if any ?) CRPG did. I agree with most of your post though.

I think the core game play mechanics held up pretty well for games from that era. Granted! That might just be nostalgia telling 'Shh, it's fine. It's fine.'

 

[Yosharian]

I know you are chinese, but it's pretty much the same thing as japanese, right? Good neighbours n stuff.

These comics were translated years ago. Took some digging, but I found it.

Viconia wouldn't be in the least bit surprised by that, but she'd probably be disappointed in <CHARNAME>, and kill him in his sleep at the next available opportunity. After fucking his brains out several times, obviously.