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Bioware strikes back: Revenge of the shit

Roguey

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@Wyrmlord - Tim Cain wrote the story outline for Fallout 2, including the stuff about the vaults. ("I left before it was even a quarter of the way done, but I had written the basic story line and implemented a few of the programming changes before I left....there was sinister subplot about the real purpose of the vaults that I wish had been kept in Fallout 2") So I guess he was pulling a Drew there.

circ said:
There is room for ambiguity, since I never saw any kind of connection just as most people didn't.
Most people aren't active readers, and never ask themselves the question "Why is the author telling me this?" I'd think an ultra-critical guy like yourself would have caught it but I guess you're just laser-focused on art and graphics. :M
 

Random

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Man, it's harder than you would think to be a critical reader when you're playing a video game. With a book or a movie, yeah, sure, I can dissect it within the first five minutes easily. But a video game distracts you by giving you the whole "I WANT MORE I WANT MORE NEED BECOME STRONGER MORE XP MORE MONEY BETTER STUFF YEAH!" thing.
 

Wyrmlord

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Roguey, read closely.

He said he WISHED the real purpose he wrote had been kept. So the one he wrote was NOT kept. And probably replaced with another.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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The backstory might have been kept though. What was not kept was a subplot involving the Vaults he had written for the game.
 

attackfighter

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Wyrmlord said:
Stinger said:
So you're saying you weren't pissed off when Bethesda pissed all over Fallout 1 and 2? Games that are far older than Kotor2?

As far as defilement to the canon of the setting goes this is just as bad if not worse. Maybe you don't care for said setting, but the outrage is hardly an overreaction.
I never cared so much about Fallout 3's defilement, because I never played Fallout 3, because I know Fallout 3 is Bethesda's own game that doesn't have to do anything with Fallout, and because it won't do anything to change the Fallout games.

Now, if you have to care about the defiling of the Fallout series, why not be consistent and take the anger out on Fallout 2 as well? Released only two years after Fallout, it totally destroys the Fallout franchise from top to bottom, by adding a revision of why the vaults existed and what happened to the supposedly extinct US government. But of course, the same reasons still apply - Fallout does not change, because of Fallout 2.

Fallout 2 was a bigger decline from Fallout 1 than Fallout 3 was from Fallout 2.
 

Oriebam

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attackfighter said:
Wyrmlord said:
Stinger said:
So you're saying you weren't pissed off when Bethesda pissed all over Fallout 1 and 2? Games that are far older than Kotor2?

As far as defilement to the canon of the setting goes this is just as bad if not worse. Maybe you don't care for said setting, but the outrage is hardly an overreaction.
I never cared so much about Fallout 3's defilement, because I never played Fallout 3, because I know Fallout 3 is Bethesda's own game that doesn't have to do anything with Fallout, and because it won't do anything to change the Fallout games.

Now, if you have to care about the defiling of the Fallout series, why not be consistent and take the anger out on Fallout 2 as well? Released only two years after Fallout, it totally destroys the Fallout franchise from top to bottom, by adding a revision of why the vaults existed and what happened to the supposedly extinct US government. But of course, the same reasons still apply - Fallout does not change, because of Fallout 2.

Fallout 2 was a bigger decline from Fallout 1 than Fallout 3 was from Fallout 2.
:thumbsup:
 

J_C

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attackfighter said:
Wyrmlord said:
Stinger said:
So you're saying you weren't pissed off when Bethesda pissed all over Fallout 1 and 2? Games that are far older than Kotor2?

As far as defilement to the canon of the setting goes this is just as bad if not worse. Maybe you don't care for said setting, but the outrage is hardly an overreaction.
I never cared so much about Fallout 3's defilement, because I never played Fallout 3, because I know Fallout 3 is Bethesda's own game that doesn't have to do anything with Fallout, and because it won't do anything to change the Fallout games.

Now, if you have to care about the defiling of the Fallout series, why not be consistent and take the anger out on Fallout 2 as well? Released only two years after Fallout, it totally destroys the Fallout franchise from top to bottom, by adding a revision of why the vaults existed and what happened to the supposedly extinct US government. But of course, the same reasons still apply - Fallout does not change, because of Fallout 2.

Fallout 2 was a bigger decline from Fallout 1 than Fallout 3 was from Fallout 2.
You forgot this: :troll:
 

kris

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Jilted Star Wars lover reporting in.

corvus said:
So, a lot of the Force in the franchise has been built up so that those uniquely in tune with it can have premonitions and see the future and read peoples' feelings and all that... My question is, why wouldn't this sith emperor see right through this Scourge guy's ploy and zap him right then and there? Isn't he supposed to be extremely powerful? I realize this novel is basically a marketing tie-in with the MMO but a little consistency would be nice. I guess. Fuck it who am I kidding star wars sucks.

Premonitions and even their supposed danger sense was only ever used consistantly in the original triology. although in the phantom menace they kind of used it in the start... only to forget all about it.

I read a couple of books and other things and this premonition thing has only been used to drive the plot and seldom even that. and the jedi walk into traps unknownigly all the time.

In fact all use of "the force" and "jedi" outside the original triology is in my opinion either shit or uninteresting. In the original triology the force was something mysterious, interesting and cool. In everything else it is superpowers, a shitty plot device or lifeline for writer that wrote himself into a corner.

Erzherzog said:
Drew Karpyshyn said:
Here is an accurate description of the KOTOR “twist” out of context: you have amnesia, and it turns out you’re the bad guy all along. Taken in that fasion, it sounds really, really dumb. In fact, when we first started pitching KOTOR’s plot to people, they talked about how dumb, predictable and cliche it was. Most people thought the twist was lame. Why? Because they heard it out of context. There was no build up. No nuance. No subtlety. The twist was only a small part of the entire experience, and it worked with many other facets to evoke a powerful reaction. Most people who played the game feel that KOTOR’s story and the twist represent a watershed moment in video game writing and story telling… but if you heard that twist before and decided it was stupid, you would have ruined much of the KOTOR experience for yourself. So, please, before you decide the book sucks, at least have the decency to read it for yourself. Try to keep an open mind and you might be surprised.

If he truly believes all he just said then holy shit!

Worst part of a game I otherwise mostly liked. Also breaks one of the golden rules of roleplaying: "Never take the character from the player".

Clockwork Knight said:
Jaedar said:
Not that delusional. A LOT of people actually do think that the twist in Kotor is the best twist ever :(

Erp. Just so the pain will go away, what does the Codex consider the best twist ever?

Personally, Matrix when he wakes up.

Stinger said:
So basically, now the only thing she has in common with The Exile of Kotor 2 is that they have the same title?

Also....why is Bioware doing that? I understand retconning the Exile because you're too stupid to actually understand what her powers were and what they represented. I also understand retconning Kreia because fucking Star Wars can't handle any criticisms of its horrible morality system and dumbass Force mythology.

But why retcon even the basic elements of The Exile's character?

A few decent Star wars books were made. but overall most EU is shit and this will scrape the bottom of the barrel. We are talking about a book based upon a game based upon a movie. Just one step there and it is shit, two steps and it is exponentionally shit. Probably won't help when it is written by someone with no novel writing credit to his name.
 

Wyrmlord

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J_C said:
attackfighter said:
Wyrmlord said:
Stinger said:
So you're saying you weren't pissed off when Bethesda pissed all over Fallout 1 and 2? Games that are far older than Kotor2?

As far as defilement to the canon of the setting goes this is just as bad if not worse. Maybe you don't care for said setting, but the outrage is hardly an overreaction.
I never cared so much about Fallout 3's defilement, because I never played Fallout 3, because I know Fallout 3 is Bethesda's own game that doesn't have to do anything with Fallout, and because it won't do anything to change the Fallout games.

Now, if you have to care about the defiling of the Fallout series, why not be consistent and take the anger out on Fallout 2 as well? Released only two years after Fallout, it totally destroys the Fallout franchise from top to bottom, by adding a revision of why the vaults existed and what happened to the supposedly extinct US government. But of course, the same reasons still apply - Fallout does not change, because of Fallout 2.

Fallout 2 was a bigger decline from Fallout 1 than Fallout 3 was from Fallout 2.
You forgot this: :troll:
Maybe it's not about how bad Fallout 2 was, as how great Fallout was.
 
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kris said:
Jilted Star Wars lover reporting in.

corvus said:
So, a lot of the Force in the franchise has been built up so that those uniquely in tune with it can have premonitions and see the future and read peoples' feelings and all that... My question is, why wouldn't this sith emperor see right through this Scourge guy's ploy and zap him right then and there? Isn't he supposed to be extremely powerful? I realize this novel is basically a marketing tie-in with the MMO but a little consistency would be nice. I guess. Fuck it who am I kidding star wars sucks.

Premonitions and even their supposed danger sense was only ever used consistantly in the original triology. although in the phantom menace they kind of used it in the start... only to forget all about it.

I read a couple of books and other things and this premonition thing has only been used to drive the plot and seldom even that. and the jedi walk into traps unknownigly all the time.

Original trilogy not only USED the premonition thing, they actively subvert it in Empire Strikes Back:

Han: [collapsing after lengthy torture session] 'They...they didn't ask any questions. They didn't even ask me any questions'.

Vader tortures Han and Leia in order to deliberately give Luke a premonition of his friends being tortured, which is why Luke receives the premonition some half an hour EARLIER in the film, luring him into the trap.

Jedi/Sith not only having premonitions, but deliberately setting up powerful emotional events in order to manipulate their enemy's premonitions (essentially changing the past, as they are actually sending premonitions BACKWARDS in time - i.e. torturing the guy's friends means that you can make him appear NOW, because you've caused him to have a premonition about the event some time in the past).

Would have loved to see more of that stuff in both the prequels and games. You can still have Jedi walking into traps, but it means that they have to be traps set up by experienced Jedi-killers (Sith, Boba Fett, etc) using the Jedi premonitions against them. I always assumed that's what Atton meant when he refers to targetting a Jedi's friends as being one of his old tricks he used when killing them.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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I don't think it's accurate to say the Original Trilogy subverts the premonition thing, except in retrospect. The Force got a lot more deterministic and superpower-y afterwards, and they managed to make morality even more absolute as well. KotOR2 is more of a deconstruction of the Expanded Universe and its vast mound of bullshit.

As far as I'm concerned, the nails to KotOR2's coffin in the official canon started being nailed back when it was decreed The Exile was female (most likely in the name of gender equality), since not only is Handmaiden the best love interest in Star Wars evar (I guess MCA hates vidya gaem romances because he knows he's one of the handful of people who actually knows how to write them), there's also the fact that Oedipal aspect of Kreia as a mother figure is kind of lost.
 

Stinger

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So Chris Avellone wasn't the one who declared that the Exile was female? Who did?
 

Roguey

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Vaarna_Aarne said:
(I guess MCA hates vidya gaem romances because he knows he's one of the handful of people who actually knows how to write them),
14jn2mp.jpg

ran9c1.jpg

Avellone is good at creeping me out with his romances. See also: Annah (Hey where have I heard "I love you more than my own life" before...?), Elanee, Sie.

there's also the fact that Oedipal aspect of Kreia as a mother figure is kind of lost.
I was pretty disappointed over how there wasn't an option to have my player character chronically masturbate to give Kreia forced multiple orgasms through their force connection (I mean if they can feel each others' pain...) Good old teen rating. And yes I can creep him out right back.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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Elanee wasn't written by MCA though, but I agree she's creepy. Just the whole "elves are over a hundred years old when they're considered to have become adults" thing alone makes it creepy. Stalker/pedophile thing is just icing on the cake.
 

Roguey

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http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/p_nwn ... quhart2_pc
Feargus Urquhart:...Chris Avellone [Lead Designer on Planescape Torment and founding member of Obsidian - Ed] always takes the big writing task - so for Neverwinter Nights 2, he's written all the companions and all the major characters and proof-reads almost all the dialogue, and fixes it out to make sure it's all uniform.
If you can give me a credible source disputing this I'll believe you.
 

Deleted member 7219

Guest
Well I just read the book.

MCA should have written this since he clearly understood Revan more than the guy who created him (Karpyshyn).

Revan is just a goody two shoes in this who wants to save the Jedi and the Republic, Karpyshyn mentions now and again how he uses both the light and the dark but never explains what this means. Really he is just a Jedi who is a bit of a rebel because he is married to Bastila.

In MCA's KOTOR 2 Revan could actually be a Sith, you just don't know, Kreia is full of admiration for him as someone who was strong-willed and basically did what he thought was best for the galaxy, not what someone else thought. That was the whole reason why he fought the Mandalorians when the Council told him not to. Also the reason why he turned on the Republic, he knew about the Sith threat and he knew the Republic would not survive unless he was the one to lead it. Malak fucked all that up, though.

In the book Revan was just brainwashed by the Emperor into attacking the Republic, because the Emperor was pretty bored and wanted something to do. Seriously; when Revan doesn't report back the Emperor just assumes he failed, and business in the Sith Empire returns to normal (mainly the Emperor sitting on his throne doing nothing while the Sith around him fight each other for prestige).

No mention of Kreia except to say she was Darth Traya and tried to wipe out the Jedi. No mention of the Exile being a wound in the Force. Malachor V does get a few mentions but only as a scene of death. No wound, no echo or anything un-Star Warsy like that. According to Karpyshyn, the Exile cut herself off from the Force because she was so upset about all the people dying... not because of echoes and wounds.

No mention of how the Jedi Order manages to rebuild itself, or the people the Exile left behind to restore the Order (Atton, Bao-Dur, Handmaiden etc).

Karpyshyn makes a big deal about the Emperor wiped out all life on an entire planet, even though it was established in KOTOR2 that Nihilus did exactly the same thing to Katarr. Also, the planet the Emperor destroyed is now surrounded by storms. The way it is described is exactly like Malachor V.

All the characters except the Emperor are transparent and have obvious motivations. Revan and the Exile team up with a Sith called Scourge who they know doesn't understand the concept of sacrifice or harbour any love for the Jedi. So of course he kills the Exile and allows the Emperor to capture Revan when things don't go their way. Everyone reading will have seen this coming a mile off.

Another thing about KOTOR2 was how it went into the philosophies behind the light side and the dark side, the cost of war on the soul (especially the Mandalorian wars), there's nothing like that in this novel, the most that happens when they talk about the Mandalorian wars is how all the Mandalorians are pissed off with Revan for hiding Mandalore's Mask. When the Exile meets Revan again she slobbers all over him instead of being rightly pissed off for having been used by him and facing the consequences for things like Malachor V.

It just seems like nobody knows what the fuck they are doing. Revan goes off to find the Sith because of a few visions, and when he gets there he's just fucked over (and then it is revealed he was fucked over last time he found them too). The Exile has nothing to do except follow Revan. Scourge just does what he thinks will keep him alive, which is a little more interesting but ultimately he is powerless too.
 

Random

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So basically it's a masterpiece for 12 year olds who need things to be simple and easy and flashy. Kinda like Eragon (which, incidentally, tore the formula right out of the Star Wars Original Trilogy).
 

Captain Shrek

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Random said:
So basically it's a masterpiece for 12 year olds who need things to be simple and easy and flashy. Kinda like Eragon (which, incidentally, tore the formula right out of the Star Wars Original Trilogy).

That could be a matter of some debate. Can you tell me why people admire Dostoevsky? or Nietzsche? Are the reasons the same?
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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:rage:


EDIT: We live in a time when people like this are considered good writers by the video game industry. Meanwhile, better writers choose to work on Japanese hentai games featuring tasteful rape. Boggles the mind.
 

Teepo

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The original Kotor twist is good, the only thing I wasn't pleased about was when I kept on seeing the same twist in Jade Empire and other Bioware games.

The twist was good because it's simple, it wasn't done before, and it wasn't overly emphasized.

It was good idea because too often developers try to hard to be "deep" and meaningful. Kotor shows that you just have to do a couple basic things right, and you have a completely enjoyable story. The problem is there is no reason whatsoever to replay Kotor 1. It is way too boring. That's the drawback, but the perk is if you happened to play the game properly, you were treated to a nice, basic and original story.

Even though the story in Kotor is ankle deep in terms of depth, it is just enough to be food for thought and play around with your imagination. It shows that you don't need to be a brain surgeon to write an engaging story. You just need to do everything right, and not over extend yourself. There are interesting concepts to think about like Tabula Rasa, and human character.
 

SCO

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Ahahahhahaha,


A star wars book? For children? Full of plot holes and misdirections? NO! hahahahahah.

Wtf did you expect? The only way to get a continuous narrative not implode into itself is to have the same author, him being a good one, and have a fucking intransigent editor that reminds him of his own plot! And this is no guarantee of the book being good (only consistent).

Guess which ones star wars lacks?

Stay away from franchises and you'll be a happier reader.
 

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