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Bloat sucks

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by JarlFrank, May 11, 2020.

  1. the mole Educated Shitposter

    the mole
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    I'm right min maxing tards are wrong
     
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  2. the mole Educated Shitposter

    the mole
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    Do something about it

    Moron
     
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  3. EldarEldrad Learned

    EldarEldrad
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    Add me too, it is better drop a game than lower the difficulty from the hardest possible.

    Btw, bloat really sucks - the example is this thread bloated by shitposter retard.
     
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  4. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    Looks like someone did something about it :M
     
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  5. ERYFKRAD Barbarian Patron

    ERYFKRAD
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    Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Ain't no potion what can cure autism.
     
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  6. EldarEldrad Learned

    EldarEldrad
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    RIP the mole (2019-2020)
    Anyway, he wasn't funny retarded, he was annoyingly retarded, so no one will miss him
     
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  7. hilfazer Learned

    hilfazer
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    So the mole has been popped.
     
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  8. Thac0 Hopeless Optimist Patron

    Thac0
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    He made 26 posts a day before being banned. That was some next level adhs.
     
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  9. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    Turn right after Alpha Centauri
  10. Strange Fellow Criminal Lawn Forcement Patron

    Strange Fellow
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    god bless you benevolent overlords, for you have delivered us from spam
     
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  11. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    I might hate feature bloat more than HP bloat.
     
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  12. holla_cabezas_de_mierda Arcane

    holla_cabezas_de_mierda
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    I agree. I could not even finish playing Kingmaker, a game I mostly liked, in a system I like for this reason. Every character ends up with a belt of +4 DEX, STR, CON or more, All 18's stats? That won't get you anywhere in Kangmaker, everyone has 24 everything by the end, and the ridiculous +67 to hit on each to hit roll vs Armor class 88, its just tedious as hell after awhile.
     
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  13. lukaszek the determinator

    lukaszek
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    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    The problem with bloat in RPGs is that the genre is known for two things: continuus character development and games being very long. If you want the game to be 60 hours long, player to constantly advance and numbers to go higher as he advances there will be some bloat at the end.
    It reminds me of idea I had once after comparing HoMM 3 to RPGs. In both games you build your heroes and fight against stronger foes, but HoMM is not a one long continuous campaign, but rather a set of smaller campaigns and missions. You could make an RPG in the same way. Instead of having one 60-120 hours long campaign you can have a bunch of separate smaller campaigns and stand-alone adventures. That way the stats won't be so bloated since you want have to go to higher numbers to make the game longer.
     
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  15. JarlFrank I like Thief THIS much Patron

    JarlFrank
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    Or have a campaign that has enough branching paths that you can replay it 5 times and always have a different experience.
     
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  16. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    That's what Age of Decadence did, which worked well for that game. The problem with that approach is that players will still repeat early game a lot, and that all branches will have to be similar difficulty-wise since every path might be someone's first, which might discourage people from finishing all the paths. If you do it like HoMM 3 did you can have interesting things like a late-game campaign that is very difficult and involves very low level characters.
     
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  17. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Nothing has AC 88. Highest I’ve seen is 60 on an optional boss tuned to be difficult and that was easily dispelled down to 45 the next round. Meanwhile main attackers had ABs in the mid-50s.

    If you stack your buffs properly there’s no min-maxxing involved. If you min-max you can get AB/AC to 100 but the last 40 or so of that is a total waste.
     
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  18. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    So weird that people lump P:K in with bloat. First cRPG that I’ve ever played on hardest difficulty and even that got too easy. Are people just paralyzed by all the options?
     
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  19. Anonona Learned

    Anonona
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    But you just posted attackers being on the mid 50s, enemies with 45 to 60 AC , being able to reach 100 AB/AC and 60 ACs being an optimal number (or at least I'm assume so if 40 points are unnecessary). I mean, that itself looks like quite a bloat to me. And if despite that bloat the game isn't hard, it actually makes its case worse. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the game is bad, but I find it strange to say it doesn't suffer from bloat when the difficulty options all consist on increasing enemies stats, as well as doubling the damage you receive on Unfair. Though, I don't know much about Pathfinder in general. Does monster and player stats usually get that high?
     
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  20. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    No, it’s unusual, and it would be a better game with 2/3 the stats and using better AI/mob tactics for difficulty. That said the purpose of the numbers is to keep difficulty more or less constant with player progression and with competent play (I.e. no min-maxxing necessary) that will be one’s experience with the game.

    If anything endgame battles are faster (less rounds required) than early game before your class really kicks into gear.
     
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  21. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    What does bloat have to do with actual difficulty?
     
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  22. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    That’s the context of the complaints. Read them.

    There are also complaints about fights taking longer and the like which isn’t the case with competent play.
     
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  23. Ol' Willy Magister

    Ol' Willy
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    A cautionary tale, this will happen to all enemies of minmaxing
     
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  24. Tigranes Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    Tigranes
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    Sorry if I'm missing something. You mean this?

    I enjoyed Kingmaker, and I disliked the bloat. Not because killing someone took an hour (it didn't) or that it made the game too hard (it didn't), but simply because the treadmill of ever increasing numbers became such a dominant aspect of the gameplay that it was more tiresome than usual. I think it would be an even better game with better design in that aspect.

    Saying that the bloat ruined P:K would be wrong & hyperbolic. But I don't think anyone said that. hollaback boy up there says he mostly liked the game, too.

    Just about every CRPG system involves some kind of linear, thoughtless upgrading that 'gates' player power, whether it's the number of your magic missiles or stat increases. Bloat for me is when that aspect becomes too exaggerated and dominant, increasing the makework required to keep up, and in turn reducing the significance of tactical elements.
     
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  25. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Yes, and that’s not the case with P:K. In the process of discouraging multi-classing many of the abilities scale automatically with class level (Inquisitor most notoriously). I wonder if the people struggling to keep up were inadvertently weakening their builds through splashes they thought they were forced into (as the OP here described his plight).

    Yes, I mean it. I find games/difficulty levels that require that kind of constant, thoughtless, linear upgrading tiresome so don't play them. P:K isn't that kind of game, even on the highest difficulty. You master the new challenges by matching the resources/strengths/abilities you have at hand with the weaknesses of the mobs you're fighting, not with ceaseless upgrades. The numbers get high (but notice not exponential) because substantial upgrades happen under the hood via artisans, non-random loot drops, and abilities which scale by level, none of which require the sort of grinding, min-maxxing, or vendor stalking you have in the later Diablos or D:OS II for instance.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
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