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Reapa

Doom Preacher
Joined
Jul 10, 2009
Messages
2,340
Location
Germany
There's plenty of pen and paper systems that would be perfect for a computer game adaptation, but which haven't been turned into a CRPG yet.

Several complex systems from the 80s come to my mind, using a hex grid with positioning (bonus for flanking, attacking from behind, etc), locational damage, wounds instead of HP, etc etc. Those require a lot of recordkeeping in pen and paper and make combat a drawn out affair (which is why they tend to be less popular than D&D) but since a CRPG has the computer take care of all the calculations and recordkeeping, these systems are perfect for adaptation.

Yet the systems that tend to be adapted are usually relatively simple in their rules. Not even GURPS has been turned into a CRPG yet, and that's on the less complex end of the more involved systems.
This is something that has bothered me since I started to play TTRPGs in my teens. I understand why DnD has such simple combat rules, but when cRPGs eliminate the tedium that was the innate restriction the weapon/armor dynameics cease to make any sense. Most of the weapon variety is, aside from a few relatively unimpactful instances, just flavor and serves no meaningful purpose - it's mostly a guessing game on your first playthrough which weapon category will be most powerfully itemized in the game and then when you know what to expect you choose the same weapon every time. E.g. you would probably pick Bastard Swords in BG2 (to dual weild with Belm) to go Foebane +3 -> Jhor the Bleeder -> Foebane +5 (Jhor and Foebane +5 are stupidly overpowered) or Flails to use FoA (+3 -> +5) throughout the game. Or maybe you think some specific weapon is cool, so you use that one and it's not necessarily much worse than the alternative and it works just about as well in every single encounter no matter the opponent - so the distinction is ultimately meaningless. Weapons don't have strengths and weaknesses, they are just better/worse across the board and maybe some cool ability that usually doesn't make much sense to begin with.

The weapons are based on IRL counterparts which were developed for very specific circumstances, but these dynamics are not reflected in the game at all. Full plate mail would make you virtually invulnerable to any one-handed cutting weapon and thrusting weapons require the equivalent of a critical hit to do anything at all, but a halberd (always insanely underpowered in every DnD edition) would be a serious threat. At least in 2E there were some type-sprecific modifiers (though full plate was still not nearly good enough), but in 3E some dumbfuck with two Kukris can bring down a knight with ease. When these dynamics don't exist, why do things like halberds exist at all? If we compare halberds to greatswords; they have the same proficiency requirement, the same crit threat (halberds are 20/x3, while GS are 19-20/x2), greatswords have significantly better base damage 2d6 vs 1d10 and the only outright benefit of halberds is that they can deal piercing damage which AFAIK NEVER comes into play in NWN since armors don't have specific AC modifiers and IIRC there are no enemies that are vulnerable to piercing but resistant to slashing. There is NO mechanical reason to use a halberd over a greatsword. Compare to IRL where a skilled warrior had to be a master of many weapons since each one had significant drawbacks in many situations.

I've been toying around with an idea of creating an NWN module with totally revamped combat mechanics along these lines:
  • Slashing damage would be by far the most powerful, but most armors would offer significant resistances (both in terms of AC and outright damage reduction). For example: a full plate mail would be impervious to slashing damage, have exceedingly high AC against piercing (but no damage reduction) while having low AC against force damage, but with some damage reduction. This also requires that full plate mail is exceedingly expensive and needs to be tailor made for a person - making it rare and undroppable among NPCs and an endgame item for the PC.
  • Every weapon would deal some amount of "blunt" damage (force damage). Blunt weapons deal purely force damage, halberds and axes deal more than swords etc.
  • Straight swords would akin to halberds be able to deal piercing damage as well as slashing (reflecting the differences between curved and straight swords and why the two types exist to begin with).
  • Conversely, curved swords would deal more slashing damage and be more powerful against unarmored or lightly armored opponents (which is why they were much more popular in regions where heavy armor was rare, like the Orient and East Asia).
  • HP only minimally increases throughout the game, everyone is 1HD (levels are abolished for a pure use-based system) only boosting your constitution can increase it. This ensures that the low-early midlevel danger is ever present through the game and maintains some realism.
I think the dynamics of such a system could be interesting. Groups would be much more powerful unless someone has heavy armor (like IRL), shields would be an absolute necessity unless you have heavy armor. Two handed weapons (or blunt + shield if you don't have the armor to back up a two hander) are a must against heavy armor whereas cutting weapons are just as dangerous against a lesser armored opponent (if not more since they are, or rather should be, faster). Since one good hit is a death sentence, initiative is much more important. It's no longer a DPS race, but a race to get the killshot.

I'm programming a combat simulator to see how the system would play out and how to balance it before I dive into implementation, so hopefully it's not just ideas that seem to make sense in my head (and not just an RNG-based orgy of savescumming). I've been wanting to play an RPG system with low HP dynamics since I was 14 and me and my older brother made an attempt at a homebrew that was rejected by the rest of our D&D* group.

*Drakar och Demoner, Swedish TTRPG that at least had separate HP pools and the way we played leveling was extremely slow, don't think anyone in our group ever went above level 3.

and now add magic to this system and break it.

the fact that your d&d group rejected your brew should give you an idea of how flawed what you are suggesting is in a game. in any given situation of your party of 6 vs a tough enemy 5 of them will stand around cheering for 1 who is equipped to do the damage. any 6 on 6 would be won by the party who has a minimal difference like 1 plate too many or 1 hammer too many. for little and single character parties your system means carrying every weapon and armor in the game and having time to play dressup before each fight or die at every step. the fact that you fear it would turn into an RNG based orgy of save scumming shows that you managed to put some thought into it before proposing such a thing but playing for time nonetheless instead of scrapping the whole thing and putting more thought into it.

the reason i'm answering to you is because you seem closer to the truth than anyone else in this thread. the truth is contrary to what draq believes not more roleplaying whatever that means but more interaction possibilities and detail and depth (your proposition flawed as it is) and good writing and good ui and scarcity and tits (retardedly underrated lately due to retarded society).
 

Alrik

Educated
Joined
May 14, 2020
Messages
72
There's plenty of pen and paper systems that would be perfect for a computer game adaptation, but which haven't been turned into a CRPG yet.

Several complex systems from the 80s come to my mind, using a hex grid with positioning (bonus for flanking, attacking from behind, etc), locational damage, wounds instead of HP, etc etc. Those require a lot of recordkeeping in pen and paper and make combat a drawn out affair (which is why they tend to be less popular than D&D) but since a CRPG has the computer take care of all the calculations and recordkeeping, these systems are perfect for adaptation.

Yet the systems that tend to be adapted are usually relatively simple in their rules. Not even GURPS has been turned into a CRPG yet, and that's on the less complex end of the more involved systems.
This is something that has bothered me since I started to play TTRPGs in my teens. I understand why DnD has such simple combat rules, but when cRPGs eliminate the tedium that was the innate restriction the weapon/armor dynameics cease to make any sense. Most of the weapon variety is, aside from a few relatively unimpactful instances, just flavor and serves no meaningful purpose - it's mostly a guessing game on your first playthrough which weapon category will be most powerfully itemized in the game and then when you know what to expect you choose the same weapon every time. E.g. you would probably pick Bastard Swords in BG2 (to dual weild with Belm) to go Foebane +3 -> Jhor the Bleeder -> Foebane +5 (Jhor and Foebane +5 are stupidly overpowered) or Flails to use FoA (+3 -> +5) throughout the game. Or maybe you think some specific weapon is cool, so you use that one and it's not necessarily much worse than the alternative and it works just about as well in every single encounter no matter the opponent - so the distinction is ultimately meaningless. Weapons don't have strengths and weaknesses, they are just better/worse across the board and maybe some cool ability that usually doesn't make much sense to begin with.

The weapons are based on IRL counterparts which were developed for very specific circumstances, but these dynamics are not reflected in the game at all. Full plate mail would make you virtually invulnerable to any one-handed cutting weapon and thrusting weapons require the equivalent of a critical hit to do anything at all, but a halberd (always insanely underpowered in every DnD edition) would be a serious threat. At least in 2E there were some type-sprecific modifiers (though full plate was still not nearly good enough), but in 3E some dumbfuck with two Kukris can bring down a knight with ease. When these dynamics don't exist, why do things like halberds exist at all? If we compare halberds to greatswords; they have the same proficiency requirement, the same crit threat (halberds are 20/x3, while GS are 19-20/x2), greatswords have significantly better base damage 2d6 vs 1d10 and the only outright benefit of halberds is that they can deal piercing damage which AFAIK NEVER comes into play in NWN since armors don't have specific AC modifiers and IIRC there are no enemies that are vulnerable to piercing but resistant to slashing. There is NO mechanical reason to use a halberd over a greatsword. Compare to IRL where a skilled warrior had to be a master of many weapons since each one had significant drawbacks in many situations.

I've been toying around with an idea of creating an NWN module with totally revamped combat mechanics along these lines:
  • Slashing damage would be by far the most powerful, but most armors would offer significant resistances (both in terms of AC and outright damage reduction). For example: a full plate mail would be impervious to slashing damage, have exceedingly high AC against piercing (but no damage reduction) while having low AC against force damage, but with some damage reduction. This also requires that full plate mail is exceedingly expensive and needs to be tailor made for a person - making it rare and undroppable among NPCs and an endgame item for the PC.
  • Every weapon would deal some amount of "blunt" damage (force damage). Blunt weapons deal purely force damage, halberds and axes deal more than swords etc.
  • Straight swords would akin to halberds be able to deal piercing damage as well as slashing (reflecting the differences between curved and straight swords and why the two types exist to begin with).
  • Conversely, curved swords would deal more slashing damage and be more powerful against unarmored or lightly armored opponents (which is why they were much more popular in regions where heavy armor was rare, like the Orient and East Asia).
  • HP only minimally increases throughout the game, everyone is 1HD (levels are abolished for a pure use-based system) only boosting your constitution can increase it. This ensures that the low-early midlevel danger is ever present through the game and maintains some realism.
I think the dynamics of such a system could be interesting. Groups would be much more powerful unless someone has heavy armor (like IRL), shields would be an absolute necessity unless you have heavy armor. Two handed weapons (or blunt + shield if you don't have the armor to back up a two hander) are a must against heavy armor whereas cutting weapons are just as dangerous against a lesser armored opponent (if not more since they are, or rather should be, faster). Since one good hit is a death sentence, initiative is much more important. It's no longer a DPS race, but a race to get the killshot.

I'm programming a combat simulator to see how the system would play out and how to balance it before I dive into implementation, so hopefully it's not just ideas that seem to make sense in my head (and not just an RNG-based orgy of savescumming). I've been wanting to play an RPG system with low HP dynamics since I was 14 and me and my older brother made an attempt at a homebrew that was rejected by the rest of our D&D* group.

*Drakar och Demoner, Swedish TTRPG that at least had separate HP pools and the way we played leveling was extremely slow, don't think anyone in our group ever went above level 3.

and now add magic to this system and break it.

the fact that your d&d group rejected your brew should give you an idea of how flawed what you are suggesting is in a game. in any given situation of your party of 6 vs a tough enemy 5 of them will stand around cheering for 1 who is equipped to do the damage. any 6 on 6 would be won by the party who has a minimal difference like 1 plate too many or 1 hammer too many. for little and single character parties your system means carrying every weapon and armor in the game and having time to play dressup before each fight or die at every step. the fact that you fear it would turn into an RNG based orgy of save scumming shows that you managed to put some thought into it before proposing such a thing but playing for time nonetheless instead of scrapping the whole thing and putting more thought into it.

the reason i'm answering to you is because you seem closer to the truth than anyone else in this thread. the truth is contrary to what draq believes not more roleplaying whatever that means but more interaction possibilities and detail and depth (your proposition flawed as it is) and good writing and good ui and scarcity and tits (retardedly underrated lately due to retarded society).

Magic is completely out (as are classes, your character will be completely respeced through conversation options at the start), at least in the pilot module. It will likely be integrated to some extent down the line, but with severe restrictions: Elves having natural sorcery based on nature with evocation and transmutation magic (and maybe some other schools, we'll see) and humans having developed abdjuration wizardry during a prolonged human-elven war. All other schools (though some spells may be reallocated to one of the available schools if it makes sense) and divine magic are definitely out. Elven sorcery would be uncapped but each casting drains constitution (racial attribute tendencies would also be revised), with the amount of constitution drained being dependent on the power of the casting. Wizardry will likely be tied to wands (with skill/training required to utilize them) as humans do not have the natural connection to nature that elves have and therefore are unable to draw power from it, thus needing technology to wield magic.

Your scenario might be true for a TTRPG. I was 14 at the time, do you really think I had a good grasp of the implications? Also the rest of the group were of a more munchkin temperament than me and my brother (IIRC the system was actually pretty well fleshed out). In this case I'm just creating (or rather I might create) a module with a system and a setting that I think I would enjoy myself, I don't give a fuck if most other people aren't interested in that type of gameplay. They can go be retarded somewhere else.

In any case the whole point was that many of the drawbacks are significantly mitigated in a CRPG and especially one like NWN where you only directly control a single character. Also groups become more powerful so having numerous henchmen will (or should, I haven't fully tested it out yet) be not only beneficial but likely required to stand a chance when encoutnering groups.

To your point of equipment. Weapons are a small issue since switching weapons mid-battle in NWN is trivial and with regard to armor there will be fatigue and movement systems that should make different armor paths viable (not to mention availability is a key factor), though full plate will be OP as it should - but as I said an endgame item for the PC and facing a knight-equivalent would be a tough boss fight. Making direct engagement deadly also increases tactical depth, making things like flanking (I might increase the bonuses) and ranged weapons as well as using area denial consumables like tanglefoot bags key - though I forsee a lot of headaches with regard to idiotic henchman AI that I need to mitigate somehow. Combat abilities such as knockdown, taunt and parry should become very useful as well (getting your enemy locked in engagement with a parrying character while someone flanks him should be a very effective tactic). In any case I won't just set the parameters arbitrarily, there will be a lot of simluation work to get it to a point where the system feels fair while remaining challenging (ideally an encounter should have either a low or high chance of success based on tactics, I think it's when you fall into the 30-60% success range where you get the RNG savescumming).

The setting of the module would focus a lot on coherence and tradeoffs (which is key in use-based systems, eliminating the possibility of grind). With fatigue and time limits, you will have to make choices in which skills to develop. Side quests may not even exist, unless there ends up being points where they make sense. Instead there will be a branching main quest that also drives forward independently of player actions (ergo time limits) and freeform exploration is therefore not an option. Failure to comply will not necessarily break it, but shift you on a different path and locking out others (though there will probably be situations where you could be executed for desertation or treason). The setting will be a military one (and restricted to humans), with intra-squad and heirarchical dynamics being important (good luck advancing into key positions and getting the influence required to make impactful decisions with lacking social/leadership skills). This opens up different alignment paths as well; do you advance by contributing positively or will you sabotage and manipulate to get yourself into key positions? I know I'm a good writer so the different branches should be interesting and engaing if I put in the work, the hard part will be to find the right balance in gameplay to make them viable. The military envrionment also lends itself to a situation where you get instructions on viable tactics for different scenarios so players don't go in expecting to use the same approach they are familar with from 3E DnD, as well as training/sparring opportunites for development and practice (if desired).

Look, it might all go down in flames - but I'm interested in seeing if you can develop an environment where there is actual coherence between the setting and the gameplay while maintining a sense of character progression and having the gameplay be engaging rather than frustrating. Likely a tall order and maybe out of my ability, but that's for me to find out.
 

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