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Building for RP vs. building to "beat the game"

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Codex Year of the Donut
Party-based games and games
maybe the problem is that you control the entire party instead of just your character

did you know there's only two games in codex's top 10 that have full party control? :M
 

luj1

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I always build for RP. If I build for maximizing I will inevitably lose interest. Ideally you should be able to break any playstyle and make it viable, Morrowind style.
Pretty much the only game where I build for RP
 

dacencora

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I think that building for buildfaggotry or for roleplaying depends entirely on how much fun the underlying systems are. If the world is more engaging than the combat, RP-building seems more appropriate, but for more tactical games like KOTC 1/2 or Dungeon Rats, munchkinism seems like more fun.
 

LannTheStupid

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EDIT: also Wasteland 2 is pretty good about this, and the companions you find in the wilderness are more fleshed out.
However, in Wasteland 2 all starting party members are desert ranger recruits. They have already been selected just by the fact they survived the apocalyptic desert from birth to 20 years at least.

Role play this with a char with STR and CON 8.
 

0wca

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One apparent paradox is that the former mode (rp) is thought to be "casual" and the latter (min-maxing) more "hardcore" - but surely it's the other way around? Surely making a clumsy chaaracter with a humph and a cleft palate and still beating the game with him is more challenging, and therefore more hardcore, than making the game as easy as possible by building a one-trick pony that beats all possible encounters?

I agree. My pacifist playthrough through certain RPGs was way harder than playing normally, where you can just grab your gun and "solve" problems that way. RPing a character basically means setting self-imposed limits on what you can do, which automatically makes it harder.

Min-maxing is harder from the perspective of making a truly optimized build a.k.a. a ton of spreadsheets and research about the game. Once the build is made then it's actually much easier to play the game itself since the min-max grunt work is usually done out of game.

The other question is, is it possible to blend these two modes, or are they really like oil and water, and a game designed for one audience will never satisfy the other

I think they're two sides of the same coin because you can't really get rid of one without the other. while I prefer RP over min-max, the very nature of an RPG represents character options and thus, will always have min-maxers trying to create the "ultimate" build.
 

dacencora

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EDIT: also Wasteland 2 is pretty good about this, and the companions you find in the wilderness are more fleshed out.
However, in Wasteland 2 all starting party members are desert ranger recruits. They have already been selected just by the fact they survived the apocalyptic desert from birth to 20 years at least.

Role play this with a char with STR and CON 8.
You're being overly pedantic to the point of inanity. Yes, obviously Wasteland 2 takes place in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, ergo, it is not random adventurers at a tavern. Jesus.
 

PorkaMorka

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I don't understand what you are supposed to be roleplaying. In a CRPG you can only play a character that is supported by the game mechanics.

The mechanics are typically arbitrary in terms of theme and have little relation to how someone might otherwise imagine a fantasy archetype.

In Divinity Original Sin 1, my "fighter" conjured a giant fist in the sky, which then knocked down enemies at range. I would never imagine a character like that, that's retarded, but that's what I had to play because that's what the mechanics supported, there were only a few fighter skills to pick from.

Eventually it becomes apparent that there are a few different archetypes you could pick from, like archer-mage or fighter-grenade-mage or fighter-thief-mage, but they were dictated by the game mechanics and aren't standard fantasy archetypes. The game really encouraged a broader range of skills than that.

In 3rd edition D&D type games, every aspect of my build has to be planned out from level one, including stats that seem unimportant for my class, otherwise I'll be locked out of my final build by some stat requirement or feat pre-requisite. I forget the details but I remember some of the thematically cooler late game feats for fighters had very difficult and counter-intuitive requirements that you could easily lock yourself out of, if you didn't min max perfectly from level one. I guess my fighter is intelligent because he needs to take combat expertise.

I still haven't played Underrail yet, because the builds are so arbitrary. There may be a lot of different builds, but the mechanics push characters into certain synergistic combinations of stats, feats and skills and weapon choices. These combos don't necessarily make thematic / roleplay sense. There are a lot of pre-requisites and requirements to keep track of and most builds seem quite restrictive; I never imagined a character who could only shoot crossbows and use bear traps. Not that I care so much about roleplaying a specific character, it's just boring to only have a few abilities to play through a really long game with, I want to play a character who has something interesting to do.

Also, in storyfag games the problem is even worse. There are a lot of ways to deal with combat, but in order to get the best dialog check results, you need a certain combination of stats and skills. If you pick just one point less than you need, you are locked out of that dialog option and it may be permanent. In this kind of game people tend to always pick the exactly the stats and skills that are necessary to maximize dialog choices and rewards from dialog. Often they resort to spoilers on the first playthrough, just to get the right stats and skills, to avoid making a character that is a jack of all trades master of none. I remember for PS:T there was a certain recommended level of Intelligence and Wisdom that people usually took, I guarantee they didn't start off imagining their character that way, because normally D&D mages don't need Wisdom.

In some ways simpler games may actually leave more opportunity for "roleplaying"; if there are only a few pre-set archetypes like barbarian, paladin, archer, mage and they are all viable, you can just pick the one you think is cooler / looks more fun.
 

dacencora

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In some ways simpler games may actually leave more opportunity for "roleplaying"; if there are only a few pre-selected archetypes like barbarian, paladin, archer, mage and they are all viable, you can just pick the one you think is cooler / looks more fun.

I think that, in general, DRPGs(blobbers) and roguelikes give the greatest feeling of roleplaying in this simplistic sense that you’re talking about. Some of them get more complicated with differing rules on multiclassing, but many offer a simpler approach.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
And the last. In the latest CRPG's that I can remember player characters are: a settler who decided to move to an overseas colony hoping to obtain some land; a high ranking officer in a massive conquering army whose job is to crush resistance in the last remaining independent piece of the known world; a fortune seeker who took up the offer of the local feudal to obtain the lands and the title of Baron; and a volunteer who joined the 100+ years war with supernatural beings from another cosmic plane.
Now, explain me which of those roles can be fulfilled by a character not in the top performing condition by the standards of the corresponding world?
Other than the higher ranking officer, which implies a history of competence or the appearance of it, any of the other set ups can be filled in by any schmuck who wants to seek adventure fortune et cetera.
Does not mean they'll succeed but that has not stopped anyone.
What is the "role play" that pushes a weak character into one of those extremely dangerous endeavours?
Weak don't imply smart.
 

Zarniwoop

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I've seen just as many people saying the opposite. After all, only scrubs play in a way that gets them the most and biggest rewards, while the actually good players give their characters 3 Intelligence and win the game that way. How many casual players have played Fallout 1 with a stupid character? Arcanum as a Half-Ogre? VtMB as a Nosferatu or Malkavian? You always see people making topics like "What is the best character I can make in this game?" or "What stats should I avoid in this game?" Its not hardcore gamers making those topics.

Playing NWN as a total retard was hilarious, even your dialogue choices would change accordingly.

"Let me see your wares" becomes "Me need to buy stuff" etc.
 

LannTheStupid

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ERYFKRAD That's why role players should play Ironman - as they do at their tables. Then death becomes the limiting factor, and a weak and stupid character who somehow managed to reach the Jamandi Aldori mansion quietly dies from the assassins. End of story, reroll and "build back better".

Or they set the Story mode, which can be interpreted as the world with no danger, with the shining sun and rainbows, and in such a world even gimps and utter morons survive. This is interesting role play by itself.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Classless systems allow the best experience for roleplaying for me. If I had to list games that had a "good roleplaying experience", nearly everything I'd pick would be classless.

PST is by no means a typical D&D adventure, but it gives you a lot of freedom in your choice of shaping your TNO(and how the world shapes him.) I'm not sure if you could get that same kind of freedom without such rulebending and with such a unique setting. After all, the levels you gain in PST are just representations of you remembering knowledge you've repeatedly learned and forgotten countless times over.
 
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ERYFKRAD That's why role players should play Ironman - as they do at their tables. Then death becomes the limiting factor, and a weak and stupid character who somehow managed to reach the Jamandi Aldori mansion quietly dies from the assassins. End of story, reroll and "build back better".

Or they set the Story mode, which can be interpreted as the world with no danger, with the shining sun and rainbows, and in such a world even gimps and utter morons survive. This is interesting role play by itself.
Valerie has an int score of 9 and she's the one who was working her ass off during the ambush.
Seems like a poor argument to me.
 

Nortar

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An interesting topic.
While the dichotomy - roleplay vs powerplay - exists in crpg, it's even more clearly manifested at the table.

I think the knowledge of players has a direct effect on how they approach char-building.

On one side of the spectrum are normies and newbies who don't know much if anything about mechanics.
They are guided by pure RP desires: "I want to be a dragon wizard!"

The more players know about underlying systems, the more conscious choices they can make in order to make their characters strong
and succeed in beating the game. Even if in the end this leads to a few "optimized" cookie-cutter builds; if all you're going to do is drive
nails, there's no reason to pick any tool but the hammer.

And finally, after mastering the system and realizing that everything is shit anything works, players
turn to try interesting, but not necessarily powerful concepts: "I want to see how would fare a low-int half-ogre necromancer".

TL/DR: the old bell curve meme would be fitting here.

HE3HKoK.png
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Going through some of the comments, I've realized that of course "building a min-maxed monster" represents challenge at the strategic level, whereas building a non-optimal character that is what it is, and seeing how far one can push that character through the game is more of a tactical challenge (how well one knows the combat rules and options).

IOW, it so happens that with every system there are exploitable gaps that allow the creation of a character that's like Godzilla relative to the game's mobs, and relative to average builds that would all work more or less similarly at a tactical level (balance). Finding that gap is the challenge the min-maxer takes on (and that's what makes it a kind of PvP in some sense: effectively that type of player is trying to "beat" the designer).

This is making it sound more complicated and grandiose than it actually is, but I'm putting it in the most general terms to cover the kinds of systems you get sometimes (like in MMOs) that are quite opaque at first glance, and take a while for autists to figure out. OFC in something like D&D, which is long over-familiar to us now, it could be as simple as pushing STR to 19 and dumping CHA or INT (never dump WIS :) ). The type of character that represents is either a stinking hulk or a musclebound moron, who nobody would ever want or tolerate in a party (except the ultra pragmatist who says, "Wellllll ... if he can kill those orcs, can't we, erm, put up with the smell?" :) )

But hang on (the autist can say smugly), isn't that just another one of your "imaginative characters that you've dreamed up and you want to roleplay?" HMMMM??? What's the difference between my magnificent "muscle-bound moron "and your "charming, effeminate weakling with nimble fingers?" Well yes, but it just so happens that computer games tend towards combat encounters just because they're easier to represent on a monitor than things like, "Darius' winning smile caught the Countess off-guard."

So in theory the two aspects aren't immiscible. In fact, from the abstract point of view, "building any old character and seeing how it rolls" is exactly what the min-maxer is doing.

It's just that in practice it's hard to design a videogame that's rich in alternative, non-combat ways of getting from A to B. Many developers do try to some extent, but it ends up satsifying no-one really. Even trying to figure out the relative reward weighting for skull-bashing vs winning smiles is an impossible task. It's just so much more work that isn't worth the effort (and by now there's been a feedback loop: players have come to expect combat-centric gameplay - to a point where one almost agrees with the idea of just stripping the other options away and having all possible characters be muscle-bound morons, dextrous elves or cackling Mekons from the start). The conflict between rp player and powergamer was bad enough in the tabletop setting (because there has to be a fair amount of combat even in the tabletop setting), but it's just so much more magnified in a CRPG context.

So again, we come down to this. Until the advent of proper AI, the only way of solving the problem (apart from developers heroically putting tons more non-combat stuff into their games than the ROI warrants, and magically getting the reward balance for combat vs. non-combat solutions right) is to have online dungeons or persistent worlds, as in NWN/NWN2, where you have a (non-malicious) human DM in a videogame, guiding a party of players through the virtual world and designing, on the fly, encounters that give more elbow room for richly imaginative non-combat solutions to problems (solutions that can be represented in interpersonal dialogue and don't always have to be represented in the game's graphics). The limiting case of that (having one DM per single player) is too ridiculous, yet it would be the only way of really solving the problem for single-player games (though it is solvable when you eventually have "one decently smart, but non-malicious AI per player").

The Gordian Knot cutting solution is of course to say, "Huh, well that's just what this virtual world is like, musclebound morons survive and thrive and weaklings die." So your cunning, effemininate, nimble-fingered weakling just has to wait for a game in which only those who can navigate court intrigue can survive and muscle-bound morons are shot on sight :)
 

Darth Canoli

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The other question is, is it possible to blend these two modes, or are they really like oil and water, and a game designed for one audience will never satisfy the other?

DOS 2, which I don't like very much tried to mix party creation with developer designed companions and characters unique traits makes it interesting.
Of course, their class-less system prevents the whole thing from taking of but I give them a participation award, almost there.

It could work, cf. below.


Let me build a dwarven fighter, better yet, let me build the party of characters I want to go to war with rather than the prefabricated developer companions that encounters would be designed around, and I'll take on whatever the gameworld has to throw at the player without complaint.

Developer companions don't have personalities, they have mental disorders.

Mental disorders can work, it works for HK47, Ignus, Vhailor, Morte for example, Wizardry 8 companions are well done as well.
I even find some Tyranny's characters good enough but I forgot their names and I don't really want to remember them (the armored dude and the mage demi-god gal were good enough)

So, devs with enough talent are known for making it work.
Also, their builds should be decent at least (very good wouldn't hurt though) of we should be able to roll them when we get them with eventually class restrictions.
 

LannTheStupid

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Valerie has an int score of 9 and she's the one who was working her ass off during the ambush.
Seems like a poor argument to me.
Because there are more ways to survive in quasi-medieval conditions than to be smart. Also, INT 9 > INT 3. Also, CON 19 tells everyone (well, everyone except Fallout-76 players it seems) that Valerie is incredibly tough and can successfully struggle through a lot. Also, she is a fighter and not a wizard.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Valerie has an int score of 9 and she's the one who was working her ass off during the ambush.
Seems like a poor argument to me.
Because there are more ways to survive in quasi-medieval conditions than to be smart. Also, INT 9 > INT 3. Also, CON 19 tells everyone (well, everyone except Fallout-76 players it seems) that Valerie is incredibly tough and can successfully struggle through a lot. Also, she is a fighter and not a wizard.
"low int players work if they actually put their points elsewhere"
ok

also, you can't make an int 3 character in that system you dip.
 

LannTheStupid

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also, you can't make an int 3 character in that system you dip.
INT 7 exists in Pathfinder. So Valerie instead of "Has trouble following trains of thought, forgets most unimportant things" could have been "Dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounces words".
The Gordian Knot cutting solution is of course to say, "Huh, well that's just what this virtual world is like, musclebound morons survive and thrive and weaklings die." So your cunning, effemininate, nimble-fingered weakling just has to wait for a game in which only those who can navigate court intrigue can survive and muscle-bound morons are shot on sight :)
Well, you need to build a world suited for this.

Maybe the Stolen Lands are a bad place for such a character, but what about Mendev? One infamous count has DEX 16 (kind of nimble I'd say), INT 11 (well, maybe not that cunning), CHA 20 (!), is quite effeminate and very beautiful by all standards. His sheltered childhood carried him through the child's mortality (and CON 13 is not that low), but then ... something's happened after which he had to rely on his family's riches instead of the family itself. Which he did quite successfully, so he was OK remaining a weakling (STR 7). He is well versed in court intrigue (Emissary background), reads people well enough, is observant (WIS 14 helps I guess).

So he seems to be a very good role play character who feats your description well. Also, he staggers before important steps in his life, and in fights, too. And yet his build is one of the most min-maxed Oracle builds with enormous potential.

Now what? Are you going to proclaim Count Daeran Arendae an abominable munchkin?
 

LannTheStupid

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turn to try interesting, but not necessarily powerful concepts: "I want to see how would fare a low-int half-ogre necromancer".
This is a challenge run, not role play. So the only role players seem to be low INT players, judging by your diagram.

Which kind of tracks.
 
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gurugeorge

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also, you can't make an int 3 character in that system you dip.
INT 7 exists in Pathfinder. So Valerie instead of "Has trouble following trains of thought, forgets most unimportant things" could have been "Dull-witted or slow, often misuses and mispronounces words".
The Gordian Knot cutting solution is of course to say, "Huh, well that's just what this virtual world is like, musclebound morons survive and thrive and weaklings die." So your cunning, effemininate, nimble-fingered weakling just has to wait for a game in which only those who can navigate court intrigue can survive and muscle-bound morons are shot on sight :)
Well, you need to build a world suited for this.

Maybe the Stolen Lands are a bad place for such a character, but what about Mendev? One infamous count has DEX 16 (kind of nimble I'd say), INT 11 (well, maybe not that cunning), CHA 20 (!), is quite effeminate and very beautiful by all standards. His sheltered childhood carried him through the child's mortality (and CON 13 is not that low), but then ... something's happened after which he had to rely on his family's riches instead of the family itself. Which he did quite successfully, so he was OK remaining a weakling (STR 7). He is well versed in court intrigue (Emissary background), reads people well enough, is observant (WIS 14 helps I guess).

So he seems to be a very good role play character who feats your description well. Also, he staggers before important steps in his life, and in fights, too. And yet his build is one of the most min-maxed Oracle builds with enormous potential.

Now what? Are you going to proclaim Count Daeran Arendae an abominable munchkin?

Eh, with CHA 20 and a bunch of magic abilities that (implausibly - I've never understood how CHA is supposed to work as a Sorcerer's or whatever's casting stat or let you suddenly be able to use magical implements :) ) give him godly powers, sure he is.

I suppose actually you could say that "it's magic" evens out a lot of things. Feeble but high INT, WIS or CHA characters who would be beaten up, have their lunch money stolen and die miserably in ditch in an otherwise "gritty" quasi-mediaeval context can become feared by all. (Thinking about it, in the historical but non-magical mediaeval context, females could get quite far ahead using those only, but I doubt males could rely on those only - you definitely had cunning, wise or charismatic male types, but they had to be able to fight too, because all men had to be able to fight in those days. Effectively, those who could fight but also excelled somewhat in some of the other mental qualities were poor, damned hybrids :) )
 

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