Can a game be an rpg if it doesnt have choice and consequence ?

[samoilaaa]

One of the best things for me in an rpg is that what i do in the world has consequence , i cant just go kill anyone , steal everything and nobody sees anything , no consequences for my action , like in hogwarts legacy , i can use avadakadavra in from of other teachers and nobody gives a shit

Many people these days say that even if there are no choice and consequence as long as you can create your character , you dont have to follow a linear path in doing the story ( like in skyrim , you can do the main story when you want ) , you can upgrade the skills that you have then that game is an rpg , it doesnt matter if you have no say in the events happening in the story

do you agree ?

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Alternate universe Josh Sawyer:

A friend of mine who used to work in game design says that the biggest problem with roleplaying game design is that developers mistake more exploration for better exploration and that other genres are better suited for interactive exploration. What do you think

If the central exploration is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive exploration to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.

I don't disagree that some designers create too much quantity, but I think that's an indictment of specific content, not the fundamentals behind the genre.

You would not consider old C&CYOAs as RPGs, then? And do not many hiking simulators center around interactive exploration?

I would consider them RPGs by the definitions of their time. If someone were to make Fallout today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.

Spoiler

A friend of mine who used to work in game design says that the biggest problem with roleplaying game stories is that developers mistake writing more for writing better and that other genres are better suited for interactive storytelling. What do you think

If the central narrative is meaningfully interactive, I would classify it as an RPG. That is, I consider interactive storytelling to be the primary defining characteristic of RPGs.

I don't disagree that some designers write too much, but I think that's an indictment of specific content, not the fundamentals behind the genre.

You would not consider old dungeon crawlers as RPGs, then? And do not many adventure games center around interactive storytelling?

I would consider them RPGs by the definitions of their time. If someone were to make Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.

 

[Harthwain]

First we need to figure out what na RPG is. Which brings us to the question: does it have combat?

Spoiler

On a serious note though - being able to do whatever you want (and having to face the conseqences) is a staple of the genre for me. What you're talking about ("creating character", "not following a linear path", "upgrading skills") are RPG elements. Elements that can, and should, fuel what a player can do and how the world reacts to it. Otherwise you simply have a game X with RPG elements, rather than a fully-fledged RPG.

 

[octavius]

The computer medium is not the best for C&C (a good human DM can do that much better) or story telling (any competent professional witer of fiction do that better). Computers are a good medium for combat, exploration, and interaction with the game world.

 

[Harthwain]

The computer medium is not the best for C&C (a good human DM can do that much better)

I thought we're talking about player's actions, not Choices and Consequences via dialogue options? Because it's the former, then this can be done in a systemic manner.

 

[octavius]

A computer can do emergent game play better, like keeping track of what happens in a game with thousands of NPCs with schedules and a robust physics engine (what I thought Oblivion could be when I was young and naive).
But a computer can't handle any stupid or clever thing the player character can think of, but the devs didn't think of. With a human DM you have full freedom.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Josh Sawyer: If someone were to make Fallout today, I would not consider it to be an RPG.

What the fuck?

 

[laclongquan]

Hmmmmmmm

Here at Codex we develop 12 requirement that determine how a game get classified as RPG: 7/12 and upward.

Choice and consequence affect only 2 out of 12.

So if a game that has 7/12 point but not have 2 of those choice requirement, it still called a RPG.

That is on paper, though. In reality, you best name a non-choice RPG and let us consider if it's actually an RPG.

Because from where I stand, a game that doesnt have choice and consequence is pretty rare.

 

[just]

ai will save us

 

[Maxie]

One of the best things for me in an rpg is that what i do in the world has consequence , i cant just go kill anyone , steal everything and nobody sees anything , no consequences for my action , like in hogwarts legacy , i can use avadakadavra in from of other teachers and nobody gives a shit

Many people these days say that even if there are no choice and consequence as long as you can create your character , you dont have to follow a linear path in doing the story ( like in skyrim , you can do the main story when you want ) , you can upgrade the skills that you have then that game is an rpg , it doesnt matter if you have no say in the events happening in the story

do you agree ?

your assumption is rather troublesome. at the core of RPGs there's choice and consequence in the way you build your character so that a single character cannot utilize all the mechanics envisioned by the system. your build choices have the most tangible consequence there is - being able to do shit

 

[Nikanuur]

My own definition is that the DNA of RPG is the EXP. In the same analogy as with life, a lone appearance of EXP doesn't yet make an RPG. Complex experience built upon using the EXP at its core does. And consequences are always part of that; be it very complex ones, with various outcomes and separate narrative trees, or very blunt ones such as making a point with the hack of the sharp sword, searing Fireball, or a sudden backstab.

 

[anvi]

I am playing Wizardry 8. Again.

 

[Cat Dude]

Some adventures games have C&C

 

[Konjad]

According to codex consensus, yes:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/rpg-codex-goty-2022-results-cool-graphs.146292/

 

[Reinhardt]

is it tb and how big is party?

 

[madbringer]

If a nigger robs a shop but there's no police around to arrest him, is it a crime?

 

[Nikanuur]

If a nigger robs a shop but there's no police around to arrest him, is it a crime?

Call Jaheira, she's very particular and very thorough with such topics.

 

[Zlaja]

Choice & consequence in story/quests is great and amplify any rpg, but it's not a requirement. What IS a requirement on the other hand is the ability to choose between different builds for your character/party members, which in turn affects their ability to excel at different things based on said choices.

 

[Ereshkigal]

First you have to define what is choice and consequence and when does it take place. For some, C&C starts in the character creation screen and gets culminated in the gameplay. For others, it's a decision in the middle of the game that changes the narrative path.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. Discussing what is an RPG means playing tricks on your mind for no good reason. Play what you enjoy. The RPG question for me it's like that old adage about porn: you'll know when you see it. The semantic-fu bores me to death.

 

[Butter]

How you build your character/party is absolutely a choice, and in most cases it has easily observable consequences. Be wary of games that skip this part.

 

[Vic]

No c&c means you create a character and each playthrough is exactly identical to the previous one because the NPCs do not react any differently to your builds. That was the main reason iirc people called out Fallout 4 (and 3?) for not being an RPG.

 

[Viata]

Once again, whatever is your definition of RPG is, if it doesn't include Wizardry, it's wrong. And yes, Wizardry has C&C.
inb4 C&C only happens in dialogues -> seek help

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

If a nigger robs a shop but there's no police around to arrest him, is it a crime?

A) If the white shop owner makes the robber "good" then the shop owner will be hunted down for interfering with reparations & muh racism n sheit
B) If the small hat shop owner starts kvetching up a storm (tribe is gonna tribe) then the robber will be hunted down for muh antisemitism n sheit
C) If the black shop owner is robbed, the block robber doesn't give a shit, cops don't give a shit and neither does the media - just another day in Coonsville USA.

Back to the topic,

I would say stats + variable character build(s) with meaningful distinctions, whether class based or classless, makes an RPG. Add in good TB combat, backgrounds/histories (with positive & "negative" quirks), reactivity, a party of 5 or more, a decent story/setting & deep C&C - that might be the recipe for a great RPG.

 

[PapaPetro]

Thoughts on the emergent RP mod scene in non-RPG games like GTA and RDR2?
C&C with real people. Ironically this would be considered "Role-playing" but not an "RPG".

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Hmmmmmmm

Here at Codex we develop 12 requirement that determine how a game get classified as RPG: 7/12 and upward.

<snip>

Ok, anyone care to first list ALL 12 and then detail each one thoroughly with examples? (Games)

 

[laclongquan]

The 12 criteria to determine a RPG is from the link in my signature. Inside would be discussion, example, and analys. I will list it below

Spoiler

1. Character creation has some form of in-game consequences
2. Statistics which define character(s) abilities are subject to change throughout the game
3. Character(s) have skills or abilities which may improve or be altered over the course of gameplay
4. Character(s) accrue experience which can be spent or result in gaining levels or abilities
5. Character(s) accumulate items in some form of inventory, which the player can actively use (equip, sell, destroy, trade, etc.), which enhance or otherwise alter gameplay
6. Character(s) accumulate currency which may be spent to enhance the character(s) in some way (items, guild membership, training, etc.)
7. Character(s) gain levels throughout the game which result in some form of mechanical change (not just a change in character title, or description)
8. Character(s) are able to explore over terrain, water, space, etc. ('explore' refers to free movement of main character(s))
9. The game has some form of puzzle solving, which is resolved through combat, problem resolution, or some choice made by the player
10. A choice made by the player alters the narrative, or some other significant part of the game (an item is found or lost, stats or skills are gained or lost, different ending, etc.)
11. Character(s) interact with NPCs in some form of dialogue which have in-game consequences depending on what the character(s) say.
12. Optional quests (defined here as some kind of task made available after the game has started, and which can be resolved by the player before the game ends, but is not required to complete the game) are available.

Diablo1 lack puzzle quality, so it only score 11/12
SM Alpha Centaury and SMAX has 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10. which is 8/12, borderline RPG. It has no xp and no NPC but otherwise fit. If you consider faction leaders as NPC which we only interact through diplomacy screen, then it has 9/12, lite RPG. If you accept unit experience/kill record as XP then we also has 4,7, which mean SMAC(X) has 10/12, definite RPG.
Let's check Sengoku Rance. It doesnt have 1 and 8, but 10/12 say it's a RPG.