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Can RPGs ever be as intelligent and engrossing as they used to be?

Luckmann

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Actually, I change my mind. The more I think about it, The Witcher 3 isn't that distinct from ARPGs that generally carry the term. Aside from advances in technology and audiovisuals as well as the open world, how does the Witcher 3 meaningfully differ from the classic ARPG formula of, say, Diablo? Other than not being part of the same evolutionary track into "looter" gameplay, I honestly can't think of much. When the game is not doing exposition, the focus is entirely on combat and being a combatant is the central focus of the character itself. The only thing that might stand out is some narrative C&C, but you could've had that in any of the classic ARPGs without meaningfully affecting their genre classification.
 
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Ismaul

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Luckmann
So you think we should categorize RPGs by the type of combat they have?

Even if we were to use that criterion, grouping games into classes is still not evident. Hell, you could say BG and Diablo have more in common in their combat than The Witcher and Diablo: both D and BG are top down real-time action, with abilities taken from or inspired by D&D, while The Witcher has third-person combat which changes not only how you control your character in combat but how you activate powers and how you interact with enemies.

When the game is not doing exposition, the focus is entirely on combat and being a combatant is the central focus of the character itself.
This is your criterion to say something is an aRPG? Yet it perfectly fits Baldur's Gate type characters. Each character is defined by a combat class in which he levels, most of character progression (if not all) is about advancing your combat build and equipment, and aside from getting quests and shopping, the challening gameplay is all about combat. Much like in The Witcher.
 

Luckmann

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Luckmann
So you think we should categorize RPGs by the type of combat they have?
No, not necessarily. I really haven't given it much thought, I just got thinking on it after I said that Witcher 3 was "obviously different" from what would be considered ARPGs, and I then found myself realizing that I couldn't come up with reasons why that'd be obvious beyond the very superficial. Like all genre classifications, it's an imperfect metric either way - very few works fit in a perfect genre classification, especially when it comes to (modern) games.
This is your criterion to say something is an aRPG? Yet it perfectly fits Baldur's Gate type characters. Each character is defined by a combat class in which he levels, most of character progression (if not all) is about advancing your combat build and equipment, and aside from getting quests and shopping, the challening gameplay is all about combat. Much like in The Witcher.
I don't really have a criterion. I think we'll rapidly approach very subjective definitions and experiences. I think the experience is sufficiently different to not classify them as the same, although I'm at a loss to actually point at the specific thing that makes them objectively different. I can only point at fairly vague things such as the experience of the combat being "tactical" rather than "action-paced" or "hectic", focusing more on strategic considerations than adrenaline, and "exploration" rather than "travel", having a party, etc.

I think the difficulty of classifications is largely why CRPGs only have a very small number of functional/relevant subgenres. Even the Witcher 3 escapes most people recognizing it as an ARPG by simply having a cinematic/narrative focus outside of the combat and some C&C, which poses the question what it even takes today to be recognized as an ARPG unless you follow the Diablo 2 looter formula all the way down to the faux-isometric perspectives.
 

Falksi

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Dragon Age: Origins, whilst a flawed game, was the perfect blend of classic & modern elements, and shows it can be done.

Plenty to read in there if text is your bag, the world's riddled with lore & codex entries and they add a lot to the experience. But a lot of that is skip-able if you'er a more casual player.

That the path which games should have evolved down further. A foundation of CRPG blended with modern evolution.
 

Nifft Batuff

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Someone posted a video here where the creator identified RPG and cRPG separate genres. Basically cRPGs were to him, oldschool top down games and RPGs were the more modern immersive sim approach to the genre. That was the first time that I had been exposed to that way of thinking about it and I thought it was great. I renders moot so many Codexian criticisms of modern RPGs when you think of them as a separate genre to cRPGs, and it's hard to argue that making such a distinction is invalid. The only arguments I see as relevant relate to where these genre boundaries should lie.

I'm not especially worried that mainsteam companies are focusing more on first person, real time immersive RPGs to the exclusion of cRPGs because I enjoy both genres and I think they have the resources necessary to do a better job creating these kinds of games than indies do. Graphics, voice acting, animations, physics etc matter a lot in these kinds of games and only the big studies can feasibly be at the cutting edge of these things.

cRPGs, on the other hand, have never been a mainstream interest and I don't see it as reasonable to expect mainstream companies to make them. However, they are still being made. A demand exists and is being filled wonderfully by companies like Owlcat. I've been away from the hobby for some time and am just now playing Kingmaker for the first time. It is sublime, possibly my favorite cRPG experience ever. Like all gaming companies they will emerge and disappear, be founded, sold etc but I think cRPGs will continue to be made for quite a while yet. Especially as PnP becomes more of a mainstream interest thanks to the popularity of shows like Critical Role, more of these people are likely to seek out cRPGs for the same reason as the original founders of the genre.
Here:

Although the definition CRPG in not technically correct, I think it is indeed useful to formally distinguish between "RPG" and "CRPG" as it is done in this video.
 

Bloodeyes

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His misunderstanding regarding CRPG as an abbreviation is irrelevant. To exacerbate a misunderstanding because "muh language change" instead of acknowledging the mistake is just fucking retarded. The distinction between a CRPG and an RPG is a relevant one. If he wants to create a new subgenre of CRPGs, then he's free to to argue that, and it would be no different from ARPGs or JRPGs, all which we consider relatively distinct subgenres.nBut trying to misappropriate a commonly acknowledged term for virtually no reason other than to rationalize his own initial misunderstanding of the term? Utterly retarded.
At this point I think you should just watch the ten minutes or so where he talks about this. I found the video for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P4xJ34dmqQ&t=5072s&ab_channel=NeverKnowsBest

He has it segmented so you can find the RPG definition section easily. Because right now you're going off half cocked without knowing what the fuck you're even angry at.
This is incorrect. They are distinct, but both are still generally considered CRPGs, although The Witcher is arguably a different subgenre, potentially an ARPG, albeit obviously distinct from the more classic ARPGs that generally carry the term.
Totally full of shit. The Wicher is arguably a different subgenre? Apart from both having stats and story the two games couldn't look, play or feel more different and they appeal to a different audience (with some overlap). If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T? Maybe you'd recommend that to everyone, but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people. Separate genres.

No, because CRPG is already a generally acknowledge, pre-existing term. I've only ever seen newbies and tourists carry this confusion, after seemingly picking up on conversations on subjects which they have no understanding.
Oh fuck off.
 

Luckmann

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He has it segmented so you can find the RPG definition section easily. Because right now you're going off half cocked without knowing what the fuck you're even angry at.
I wasn't even angry, but pretending I don't know what I was objecting to is retarded. It is very clear what you meant and where you went wrong, which is why I corrected you. A vidya about someone else trying to rationalize yours and his misunderstanding of a term isn't going to change that.
Totally full of shit.
We know you are, yes.
The Wicher is arguably a different subgenre?
Yes, because CRPG is not a subgenre in any meaningful sense. It is arguably a subgenre of RPGs, but at that point we'd discussing sub-subgenres for no apparent reason, and it feels like that'd be like discussing comedy as a "subgenre" of literature, which is daft.
If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T?
Yes. But I recommend Planescape: Torment and Fallout to everyone. Deus Ex, too, even though it's not a CRPG.
... but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people.
Not nearly as much as you'd think, but yes, they do have vastly different appeals to some people.
Separate genres.
It's entirely possible to argue that the Witcher 3 is not a CRPG, but that doesn't change the meaning of CRPG. But more to the point, CRPG as a genre is not mutually exclusive to subgenre classifications. After all, that's why the concept of subgenres exist. For example, Diablo is a CRPG, Planescape: Torment is a CRPG, yet Diablo is generally referred to as belonging to the ARPG subgenre, whereas you'd never call Planescape: Torment such.

All CRPG means is Computer Role-Playing Game.

It is an extremely wide genre, with multiple subgenres that overlap a fair bit. There's a reason the Codex jokes about "What is an RPG, anyway?" and have devised ad hoc subgenres such as "hiking simulator", and in this, The Witcher would probably fall somewhere in-between a hiking simulator and an ARPG or something. Not that I fret about it, since I genuinely do not care overly much about (sub-)genre definitions; all I did was correct you on what I considered a minor but sometimes persistent error - I had no idea this equated to some mortal transgression against your tourist boyfriend.

No, because CRPG is already a generally acknowledge, pre-existing term. I've only ever seen newbies and tourists carry this confusion, after seemingly picking up on conversations on subjects which they have no understanding.
Oh fuck off.
Bullseye.
 
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Someone posted a video here where the creator identified RPG and cRPG separate genres. Basically cRPGs were to him, oldschool top down games and RPGs were the more modern immersive sim approach to the genre. That was the first time that I had been exposed to that way of thinking about it and I thought it was great. I renders moot so many Codexian criticisms of modern RPGs when you think of them as a separate genre to cRPGs, and it's hard to argue that making such a distinction is invalid. The only arguments I see as relevant relate to where these genre boundaries should lie.

I'm not especially worried that mainsteam companies are focusing more on first person, real time immersive RPGs to the exclusion of cRPGs because I enjoy both genres and I think they have the resources necessary to do a better job creating these kinds of games than indies do. Graphics, voice acting, animations, physics etc matter a lot in these kinds of games and only the big studies can feasibly be at the cutting edge of these things.

cRPGs, on the other hand, have never been a mainstream interest and I don't see it as reasonable to expect mainstream companies to make them. However, they are still being made. A demand exists and is being filled wonderfully by companies like Owlcat. I've been away from the hobby for some time and am just now playing Kingmaker for the first time. It is sublime, possibly my favorite cRPG experience ever. Like all gaming companies they will emerge and disappear, be founded, sold etc but I think cRPGs will continue to be made for quite a while yet. Especially as PnP becomes more of a mainstream interest thanks to the popularity of shows like Critical Role, more of these people are likely to seek out cRPGs for the same reason as the original founders of the genre.

Then he should probably come up with a better abbreviation, because CRPG just means Computer Role-Playing Game. I don't know where the misunderstanding that it meant "classic" ever came from.
Did you guys ever wonder why CRPG and RPG are different tags on Steam?
This is the only site on the entire internet that equates all computer RPGs with CRPG.
 

Luckmann

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Although the definition CRPG in not technically correct, I think it is indeed useful to formally distinguish between "RPG" and "CRPG" as it is done in this video.
Yes, but it's fairly easy to do so without being wrong. Just call nu-CRPGs "nuRPG" or whatever, and explain your reasaoning. Much preferable to perpetuating a misunderstanding, but one that necessitates a willingness to accept fault to begin with, rather than persisting in rationalizing the error one made.
This is the only site on the entire internet that equates all computer RPGs with CRPG.
It's really not. Even Wikipedia gets it right. Steam has a wide number of user-generated categories, many which are complete nonsense. Even DotA2 is classified as an "RPG" by Steam tags. Also, tons of games have multiple tags - for example, DotA2 (since I had that up) is categorized as both "Strategy" and "Action RPG" as well. It's even got "Simulation".

Edit: Reading the wikipedia entry, it even does a surprisingly competent job of breaking up the sub-genres.
Edit 2: Steam has "Story Rich" as a tag. Is "Story Rich" a sub-/genre? It includes Total War: Warhammer, Pathfinder: Kingmaker, and Call of Duty: Black Ops.
 
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Bloodeyes

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He has it segmented so you can find the RPG definition section easily. Because right now you're going off half cocked without knowing what the fuck you're even angry at.
I wasn't even angry, but pretending I don't know what I was objecting to is retarded. It is very clear what you meant and where you went wrong, which is why I corrected you. A vidya about someone else trying to rationalize yours and his misunderstanding of a term isn't going to change that.

Who misunderstood what term though? You're the only one who doesn't seem to get it. I say modern, large budget RPGs have diverged enough from the roots of the genre to warrant a genre distinction. Between cRPG and what is currently undrestood by the everyman to mean RPG. You say "but they're cRPGs because they're on the computer! Filthy casual doesn't know what a cRPG is" You seem to be under the impression that I don't know the roots of the label cRPG or something? Is that it? Because I do. Computer RPG. Yes. Christ, I can see someone's parents got all the vaccines.

Meanwhile in the world outside your own distorted head culture and language have moved on. Joe average self professed RPG fan who loves Skyrim and The Outer Worlds wouldn't know a cRPG if it bit him in the ass. He's never even heard the term. Would hate them if he played them. But you say they're the same genre of video games because they're on the computer and that's what matters?

I'm not going point by point with you BTW. I'm not dealing with that much quote bloat over a semantics argument with a retard who thinks Diablo is a cRPG.
 

Luckmann

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New Vegas is fully voiced, smart (mostly) and it is Codex's #7 of all time.
A game isn't necessarily bad just because it is voiced. Making a game fully voiced is just an inherently limiting factor. Similarly, having a game like New Vegas not be voiced would've been hard and would probably feel awkward. Just look at some of the mods. The format just isn't made for it.

But would New Vegas have been better if it wouldn't have been made in the image of a first-person shooter, and instead had a classic top-down/isometric approach, supported largely by text? Absolutely, and much easier to build on. I still lament that we never got a real Fallout 3.
it makes us think, consider things, or favor creative problem-solving

I don't mean to argue with you, because I agree with the points you made in your post, but this p. much defines what an intelligent RPG is.
Oh, I agree, I just feel like calling it "intelligent" is just a set-up for misunderstanding. I think we can agree that older games were more of what you and I would agree on to be more "intelligent" here, but it is obviously not how Majestik understood it. Things like this attracts "Yes, I am very smart"-people too easily, and people trying to make "an intelligent CRPGEEE" are going to degenerate into academic douchefaggotry almost immediately.
Who misunderstood what term though?
You clearly did, as did your boyfriend more than likely, and instead of accepting that, you're trying to rationalize why you're in fact correct after all, nyah nuah I am very smart, etc.
I say modern, large budget RPGs have diverged enough from the roots of the genre to warrant a genre distinction.
And nobody is contesting that, which you're understand if you were capable of rational thought.
You say "but they're cRPGs because they're on the computer! Filthy casual doesn't know what a cRPG is" You seem to be under the impression that I don't know the roots of the label cRPG or something? Is that it? Because I do. Computer RPG. Yes. Christ, I can see someone's parents got all the vaccines.
Yes, we are aware of the fact that you have now come to understand this; the issue, of course, is that you still try to rationalize your own error as correct "just because". You being ignorant is one thing - ignorance can be dispelled. You insisting upon your own ignorance like a petulant child is far worse, and all it does is mark you as an legitimate, actual, retard.
Meanwhile in the world outside your own distorted head culture and language have moved on. Joe average self professed RPG fan who loves Skyrim and The Outer Worlds wouldn't know a cRPG if it bit him in the ass. He's never even heard the term. Would hate them if he played them. But you say they're the same genre of video games because they're on the computer and that's what matters?
"Language have moved on" is the battle-cry of the willfully ignorant. "The world" clearly hasn't "moved on", since even Wikipedia gets the usage right. This really isn't rocket science. You're attempting to reinterpret an existing term simply to deal with the cognitive dissonance that arises from having been wrong, without any reason as to why that term should be reinterpreted.

Again, there may be every reason to call out different CRPGs as different - this is, after all, why we have the concept of subgenres, nevermind genre overlap. But that doesn't necessitate misappropriating one term as representative for something entirely different.
I'm not going point by point with you BTW. I'm not dealing with that much quote bloat over a semantics argument with a retard who thinks Diablo is a cRPG.
Diablo is absolutely a CRPG, because all CRPG means is Computer Role-Playing Game. It happens to belong to the ARPG subgenre of CRPGs. Things can belong to multiple things at once, whether it is a subdivision of distinct categories or not. If you can't comprehend that, you're pathologically autistic.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

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There was never a real fallout 2, so why should there have been a real fallout 3?

:M
 

Luckmann

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I still lament that we never got a real Fallout 3.

It is called ATOM RPG.
Man, I wish. ATOM RPG is really fucking great and all, but I wanted a proper sequel to the Fallout games. Preferably one taking a page out of Fallout Tactics, because yes, it was barely an RPG and it fucked up the setting but at least it had some solid ideas and a good system, and would've worked great for something party-based.
 

Ismaul

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I think the difficulty of classifications is largely why CRPGs only have a very small number of functional/relevant subgenres. Even the Witcher 3 escapes most people recognizing it as an ARPG by simply having a cinematic/narrative focus outside of the combat and some C&C, which poses the question what it even takes today to be recognized as an ARPG unless you follow the Diablo 2 looter formula all the way down to the faux-isometric perspectives.
What I meant to show was that dividing RPGs into 2 categories of "true RPGs" and "action RPGs" is way too simplistic and pointless, since RPGs with action combat can also be "true RPGs", and most RPGs are focused on combat so it being a central aspect isn'tby itself a differentiating criterion.

IMO roleplaying and C&C are what makes an RPG "truer", so I don't consider The Witcher a lower class of RPG or an action game with RPG elements. Far from it actually, since it has better C&C than many so-called classic/true RPGs. Based on that criterion, The Witcher is a much "truer" RPG than Diablo, and the latter might even not be considered in the genre at all.

So basically the class "RPG" applies equally to Baldur's Gate, The Witcher, and (grudgingly) Diablo. Within that genre, they have different things they focus on, different combat systems, etc.
 

Ismaul

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If you knew someone liked The Witcher 3, would you recommend they play Fallout of PS: T? Maybe you'd recommend that to everyone, but you couldn't know based on their enjoyment of The Witcher 3 that they would enjoy those more traditional cRPGs because they are fundamentally different types of games that appeal to different types of people. Separate genres.
If you knew someone like "insert Heavy Metal band", would you recommend they listen to "insert Death/Doom Metal band"? ... blabla lba Separate genres.

It's a bullshit distinction you're making. Heavy metal and Death/Doom are both part of the Metal genre, much like Diablo, The Witcher and Baldur's Gate are both part of the cRPG genre. Within that genre, there might be subgenre, subclassifications, but really that depends on your criteria, and there are no standards here.

Also cRPG is meant to differentiate pen and paper RPGs from computer RPGs.
 

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