Canceled Games

[POOPERSCOOPER]

Gamespot has an article with their most favorite 10 cancelled games or something. Van bauron and torn are on its.

http://www.gamespot.com/features/6132028/index.html?q=1&tag=gs_hp_flashtop_bg

 

[Atrokkus]

Okay, but where the fuck is JEFFERSON???

Morks.

 

[corvax]

Never really paid much attention to Torn but it sounded much more promissing than Jefferson.

 

[Atrokkus]

They both sounded promising, really.

Torn is an original project, while Jefferson is a "sequel" to BG2, although it may not be way too connected to it, aside from the setting. And the fact that I jsut LOVED BG2 really set me waiting impatiently for Jefferson, and of course it is promising to me. That is, not some filthy expansion pack like ToB, which was just a HnC, but a solid RPG with deep story and characters and interaction.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

I'm a fan of Shenmue (the sequel was dissapointing, because I like me a good adventure game with an original story/setting to explore (it's NOT an RPG and I don't consider it an action/fighting game either because those parts were really rare and basically served as little mini games), but there isn't a fucking thing about its gameplay you could call emergent. Pre-scripted as all get out but you get to wander around and look at stuff in between pushing the plot along. So gamespot screwed up there AND in attributing Fallout to Black Isle which did not yet exist and only worked on the sequel.

Just as an aside, I've only played a demo of BG2 but I really could care less about the series from what I know about it. PS:T-(crazy setting+freaky immortal main character+fantastic story)=yawn.

 

[Atrokkus]

Just as an aside, I've only played a demo of BG2 but I really could care less about the series from what I know about it. PS:T-(crazy setting+freaky immortal main character+fantastic story)=yawn.

Well, deep RPGs with combat as a secondary element are not your bag then.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

TORN would have pretty much been shit. That's why it was cancelled. The big problem Black Isle had was they never could do anything entirely on their own. Without a license or a pre-existing game to give them direction, they kind of faltered in an inability to make a solid, cohesive decision on design.

Don't get me wrong, Black Isle had some talented people, but their talent lies more towards the talented people who write Star Trek and Star Wars novels.

 

[Atrokkus]

The big problem Black Isle had was they never could do anything entirely on their own. Without a license or a pre-existing game to give them direction, they kind of faltered in an inability to make a solid, cohesive decision on design.

WHAT?
Fallout and Planescape are not original and solid?
Yeah, they had to receive WotC's license for Torment, but that's just for the setting, really. It wasn't a sequel to a popular game, nor had a popular concept.

It's like they just couldn't make original games lately due to economical reasons. With a license, it's much easier to earn money, or by making sequels to acclaimed titles.

 

[Shagnak]

The big problem Black Isle had was they never could do anything entirely on their own. Without a license or a pre-existing game to give them direction, they kind of faltered in an inability to make a solid, cohesive decision on design.

WHAT?
Fallout and Planescape are not original and solid?
Yeah, they had to receive WotC's license for Torment, but that's just for the setting, really.

In other words, Torment was based on a license, i.e. Planescape.
Comprehension skills, boy!

Oh, and I think Fallout was developed and published by Interplay; pre-Black Isle.
Which, technically speaking, means that Saint was correct (right?)

 

[Atrokkus]

In other words, Torment was based on a license, i.e. Planescape.
Comprehension skills, boy!

Whoah, it is you who is lacking these skills. I said "just the setting". Planescape is this setting. Of course, the story had to be sent to WotC for their permission, but that's just a formality.

h, and I think Fallout was developed and published by Interplay; pre-Black Isle.

It was PUBLISHED by Interplay.
But the crew who did it was Black ISle, which is being the division of Interplay.
Well, basically, ALL Black Isle games are made by Interplay only.

 

[Shagnak]

Whoah, it is you who is lacking these skills. I said "just the setting". Planescape is this setting. Of course, the story had to be sent to WotC for their permission, but that's just a formality.

WTF? Can't you read?
So the game was based on an existing licence (i.e. the Planecape setting).
Look, you're not exactly a master of English semantics, unlike Sarvis et al, so don't make me unhappy.

h, and I think Fallout was developed and published by Interplay; pre-Black Isle.

It was PUBLISHED by Interplay.
But the crew who did it was Black ISle.

Really? Well I guess all that shit in the rpgcodex game database better get changed.
And the stuff at gamefaqs.
And gamespy
And a heap of others that are obviously totally wrong. Let's change reality while we're at it.

Fallout 2 was published by Interplay, and developed by Black Isle.
Fallout 1 was developed and published by Interplay. Obviously there is a lot of the same people involved, but BI did not exist as an entity back then.

 

[Atrokkus]

Fallout 1 was developed and published by Interplay. Obviously there is a lot of the same people involved, but BI did not exist as an entity back then.

That's it. But the crew was pretty much the same, don't you think? Taylor, Freyermuth, Campbell, Cain, etc.

So the game was based on an existing licence (i.e. the Planecape setting).

I SAID THAT, but the GAME itself is NOT based on ANYTHING similar.
KOTOR2 is based on KOTOR1. They both are based on StarWars setting, of coruse. But hey, so are HUNDREDS of other games, including Jedi KNight, stupid shooters etc.

Torment based on no other game. But of course it is based on existing setting. But there were NO similar CRPGs before.
This is the difference.

Look, you're not any master of English semantics, unlike Sarvis et al, so don't make me unhappy.

This is not a question of semantics, but of pure logic.

 

[Shagnak]

Fallout 1 was developed and published by Interplay. Obviously there is a lot of the same people involved, but BI did not exist as an entity back then.

That's it. But the crew was pretty much the same, don't you think? Taylor, Freyermuth, Campbell, Cain, etc.

Err...yeah...thats pretty much what I said - stating the obvious does not make me any less right that the enitity known as Black Isle did not exist, or that Black Isle (the comercial entity) did not make the game.

So the game was based on an existing licence (i.e. the Planecape setting).

I SAID THAT, but the GAME itself is NOT based on ANYTHING similar.
KOTOR2 is based on KOTOR1. They both are based on StarWars setting, of coruse. But hey, so are HUNDREDS of other games, including Jedi KNight, stupid shooters etc.

Yes, yes, well done my little mental midget.
And the point is that TORN was not based on an existing licence (i.e. whether that be for the setting, or whatever) or a "pre-existing" game.

Torment based on no other game. But of course it is based on existing setting. But there were NO similar CRPGs before.
This is the difference.

Yes, there is a difference, but this does not matter - the point is and always was (and if you could read you would have realised this) that the fact that it used an existing licence then brings it into the realm of "games that used a licence or pre-existing game to give them direction".

Look, I'll even re-quote directly, with some nifty emphasis shite, from Saint's post:
"Without a license OR a pre-existing game to give them direction"
Notice the "or" in there?? That means it only has to meet one of those two criteria and we have a match.
The fact that they used an existing licence for the setting then proves Saint's point. Which is my point.

This is not a question of semantics, but of pure logic.

And you failed logic 101.
You also failed to read the pertinent clauses carefully.

Jesus Christ it is infuriating dealing with stupid motherfucking dimwits like yourself.
Now fuck off and drink some vodka. We might get along better then.

 

[Atrokkus]

The fact that they used an existing licence for the setting then proves Saint's point. Which is my point.

And my point was that not all of their games, and surely not the best, are based on license OR existing project.
See, Torment is based on a license, yes, but it is still original game. The setting doesn't matter. Planescape is not a popular setting (although it is connected with FR), and no other CRPG was ever based on it.
Fallout was original game, with no licenses or links to existing products.
This is not illogical. If you think of me as such, it's just because your prejudice against me. I understand that, and I'm not angry or something.

 

[Trash]

Ever heard of simtex? Those guys that made master of orion and master of magic? They made two of my most fav games ever so I was over the top with enthusiasm when they announced a new game. It was to be a strategy game set in a universe of warring houses that fought each other with all sorts of mechs. It was rumored to be filled with backstabbing inter house politics, a frontier to conquer and devellop and an alien menace. It looked incredibly cool and I even found a trailer on a gaming mag cd once. Unfortunately the game got cancelled because FASA (the mechwarrior people) sued Simtex for making the game look too much like their product. I'm still sad that that wonderfull looking and sounding game never got to be. That game was to be called mechlords, and to this day I'm sad it didn't make it.

 

[Thorndyke]

But the crew was pretty much the same, don't you think? Taylor, Freyermuth, Campbell, Cain, etc.

If memory serves right, Cain wasn't actively involved at all, since he had already left the company by that time. They used bits of his design, though.

Fallout was original game, with no licenses or links to existing products.
This is not illogical.

Uhm, but it has been pointed out to you that Black Isle was not responsible for Fallout. In fact, Fallout 2 is pretty much the best example for what SP was talking about. That game is basically just a large expansion, as effortlessly patched together as a sequel could possibly be.

 

[corvax]

Here's why pre-exisiting licencse mattered the most with Torment. The game was made during all the BG craze therefore business wise it was supposed to tap into at the time extremely profitable D&D CRPG market. With games like IWD and BG2 around the corner Black Isle had their way paved for them and was able to finish their product. That the game didn't turn out to be profitable is another story.

Fallout 2, as great as it may be, was cranked out in about one year, which showed. On its own the game rocks, when compared to the original Fallout it did feel like a large quickly patched together expansion.

 

[Spazmo]

Planescape was based on a license. One of the best things about it--the Planescape setting--was not created by Black Isle but taken from TSR's (it was still TSR at the time) Planescape Box Set.

As for Fallout and Fallout 2 having the same team... right. The producer, lead designer, lead artists and anyone else who left to go form Troika all leave and it's the same team? Sure.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That's it. But the crew was pretty much the same, don't you think? Taylor, Freyermuth, Campbell, Cain, etc.

Three of those were definitely not involved with Fallout 2 beyond the groundwork and the stuff that was already done from the first game. Chris Taylor moved on to 14 Degrees East and Starfleet Command instead. Tim Cain did some work on the story of Fallout 2 before leaving, but that story was pretty much tossed. Brian Freyermuth went on to Digital Mayhem after Fallout and Starfleet Academy.

 

[Atrokkus]

Three of those were definitely not involved with Fallout 2 beyond the groundwork and the stuff that was already done from the first game.

Well, okay, lame example. But still, there were lots of other people who worked on both projects.
And arguing that "hey, black isle wasn't formally created then" is kinda lame, too. I mean, who cares about hte name? It's a DIVISION of interplay, not a separate company.

Planescape was based on a license. One of the best things about it--the Planescape setting--was not created by Black Isle but taken from TSR's (it was still TSR at the time) Planescape Box Set.

Noone argues that. But the game itself is original.

 

[Spazmo]

Metallix... I'm not going to slap any silly titles on you because I think that's pretty pointless, but Christ, you're a dumbfuck. The point was that Black Isle never made a good game that wasn't either licensed or a sequel (the only projects they ever had that fit neither of these conditions are TORN, which would have stunk, and Lionheart, which did stink, not to mention any number of projects that were so shitty they never got off the ground). PST does not defy that rule. Even the central conceit of the game--that belief and faith changes everything--was just pulled from the existing TSR material. PST was a very good game and extremely well written, but much of its quality is owed to the original creators of Planescape.

As for Black Isle vs. Dragonplay (IPLY's internal RPG division before BIS)... suppose you have a team. They make a product. It is a popular product, so much so that you decide to give that team a formal name and logo and tell them to do more products. But then, for whatever reason, half of the team that made the original product leaves and you're left with managers and some lower level people, to the point that you have to bump up a bunch of quality assurance guys to fill up the team. That's just not the same team. I checked this on MobyGames once, and IIRC more people worked on both Fallout and Arcanum than did on Fallout and Fallout 2 (or perhaps Fallout and one of the later BIS titles). The real point, of course, is that the Black Isle Studios of 2003 had almost no links to the BIS of 1998 or the Dragonplay of the years before that.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, you can't really count Lionheart either, because Reflexive made that.

 

[Spazmo]

BIS always insisted on their deep involvement with the game, so I think it's only fair they get their share of the blame.

 

[Atrokkus]

The point was that Black Isle never made a good game that wasn't either licensed or a sequel

Strange point. What does it show? That Black Isle made bad games? That's bullshit. Torment alone is one of the best RPGs EVER made. Fallout 2 is also one of the greatest, even though FO1 was better. And who gives a fuck if they required some license for a setting for TOrment? What does it change? Why is it a bad thing?
You don't like their other titles? Well, why do you care?

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

Your stupidity is like one of those inflatable, weeble-wobble style punching bags, Metall1x. It keeps on getting smacked down, then popping back up without a scratch of knowledge. What set off the argument is TORN, a non-licensed game from Black Isle without the involvement of most of the important people behind Fallout. It is alleged that it would suck because Black Isle only made licensed games (with one exception to be discussed), and the greatness of their stand-out game (PS:T) is in large part due to the creation of the setting by TSR. The one non-licensed game they worked on, whose setting appears remarkably similar to TORN, was Lionheart, which sucked. The team that made Fallout was different from the team which made Fallout 2, which was different from the team behind later Black Isle games like TORN. The main creators of Fallout had less involvement in Fallout 2 than they did in the original, and by the time of TORN they weren't with the company any more. At this point you can try arguing that Lionheart didn't suck, or that TORN might not have sucked despite Lionheart. To claim that Fallout is evidence that it would have been a good game, or that Planescape proves they can come up with a good setting, is idiocy.

BTW: Did Black Isle ever come up with a good game-engine themselves? Most of their stuff used Bioware's infinity, I don't know what Lionheart used, and I'm assuming Fallout 2 used Fallout's tile-based one. I don't know what Lionheart used, other than SPECIAL.