CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

[The_Mask]

Apparently this is going to be 50% off. Should this discount persuade me to purchase this title?

Rate below. Let me know!

 

[Butter]

Don't reward companies that release half-finished and monumentally broken products. Even buying it at a steep discount is telling them that their strategy of "release it now, finish it later" is acceptable.

 

[GloomFrost]

Yes and no. Because technically KOTOR 2, TOEE, VTMB, Arcanum, AP were released half-finished and yet they are some of the best games in the genre.

 

[Ryzer]

Apparently this is going to be 50% off. Should this discount persuade me to purchase this title?

Rate below. Let me know!

Read the review written by lukaszek .
https://rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=11613

 

[The_Mask]

I did read his review. I just wanted to see if the active participants in this thread think the situation has changed, and/or the discount can "sweeten the deal" in some way.

So far it seems not.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

at this point in Witcher 3's release, Hearts of Stone was already out and we're less than a month away from Blood & Wine releasing.

 

[Butter]

Yes and no. Because technically KOTOR 2, TOEE, VTMB, Arcanum, AP were released half-finished and yet they are some of the best games in the genre.

Pirating those games is OK because Activision, Atari, and Sega don't need more money.

 

[Cyberarmy]

After almost one year since the release, does everyone agree that this game will never be fixed?

This games core is rotten, so a complete "fixing" is off the table. They need to remade the game and engine maybe then.

Until then we can put this one to the shelf with Gothic 3, Temple of Elemental Evil and such. Wasted potantials, dead borns, un undeads.

 

[tritosine2k]

When I found the monowire and its mod early and blindly I thought this game would be quite something if it kept baiting you into builds. Eg. it'd make sense to use melee weapon to achieve stunlock first then you could even run away to snipe. But to my dismay not only there are no hybrid builds there's hardly anything (overpriced respec as cherry on top lol) here because:

Why did Cyberpunk failed so spectacularly on a technical level, given the fact it is running on a proven RED engine? Witcher 3 did not suffer from so many major glitches after the initial patches. Have all good programmers left CDPRojekt?

(...)

On top of which you're dealing with a far more complicated environmental architecture and all sorts of dynamic assets, like ads, building lights, aircraft and so on. Basically, a lot of processing power gets hogged by the decor demands of that "cyberpunk vision" of Night City and the last console gen chokes on it.

They tried to do realtime cgi bar none and got what was coming .

Even Musk told them the way they did outdoor is not okay rofl. And you still see their outsource guys trumpeting stuff . Same outsource guys prob. got the job because their realtime cgi background ( unity Heretic demo) left studio heads mesmerized . Pretty much deserved stuff .

 

[Kem0sabe]

When I found the monowire and its mod early and blindly I thought this game would be quite something if it kept baiting you into builds. Eg. it'd make sense to use melee weapon to achieve stunlock first then you could even run away to snipe. But to my dismay not only there are no hybrid builds there's hardly anything (overpriced respec as cherry on top lol) here because:

Why did Cyberpunk failed so spectacularly on a technical level, given the fact it is running on a proven RED engine? Witcher 3 did not suffer from so many major glitches after the initial patches. Have all good programmers left CDPRojekt?

(...)

On top of which you're dealing with a far more complicated environmental architecture and all sorts of dynamic assets, like ads, building lights, aircraft and so on. Basically, a lot of processing power gets hogged by the decor demands of that "cyberpunk vision" of Night City and the last console gen chokes on it.

They tried to do realtime cgi bar none and got what was coming .

Even Musk told them the way they did outdoor is not okay rofl. And you still see their outsource guys trumpeting stuff . Same outsource guys prob. got the job because their realtime cgi background ( unity Heretic demo) left studio heads mesmerized . Pretty much deserved stuff .

Smart sniper rifle, you dont even have to aim to get one shot - one kill.

 

[tritosine2k]

When I found the monowire and its mod early and blindly I thought this game would be quite something if it kept baiting you into builds. Eg. it'd make sense to use melee weapon to achieve stunlock first then you could even run away to snipe. But to my dismay not only there are no hybrid builds there's hardly anything (overpriced respec as cherry on top lol) here because:

Why did Cyberpunk failed so spectacularly on a technical level, given the fact it is running on a proven RED engine? Witcher 3 did not suffer from so many major glitches after the initial patches. Have all good programmers left CDPRojekt?

(...)

On top of which you're dealing with a far more complicated environmental architecture and all sorts of dynamic assets, like ads, building lights, aircraft and so on. Basically, a lot of processing power gets hogged by the decor demands of that "cyberpunk vision" of Night City and the last console gen chokes on it.

They tried to do realtime cgi bar none and got what was coming .

Even Musk told them the way they did outdoor is not okay rofl. And you still see their outsource guys trumpeting stuff . Same outsource guys prob. got the job because their realtime cgi background ( unity Heretic demo) left studio heads mesmerized . Pretty much deserved stuff .

Smart sniper rifle, you dont even have to aim to get one shot - one kill.

Yeah any single salvo of smart gun is pretty much the same if you specialize. But you can find monowire in act1 and its requirements tend to make it look a bigger thing than it actually is. Also why go all in on monowire? - hybrid stuff should be necessity from get go. Plus doubt you can even incapacitate with wire like with baton (that even works early too) . So many missed opportunities.

 

[Bliblablubb]

But you can find monowire in act1 and its requirements tend to make it look a bigger thing than it actually is. Also why go all in on monowire?

Nope. CDPR removed the free monowire and mantis blades a few patches ago. Claiming they would "bug out the level scaling of golden items" or smth. You can only get blue fists from a scanner hustle I mentioned earlier, which is pointless because you can buy them with no req for pocket change.
But the game is still eager to throw overpowered equipment in your face at every corner, it would need a massive effort even by Josh Sawyer to rebalance this game to a normal level.

It's actually fitting the the "normal" difficulty mode is labelled "easy" in the savegames. Would go higher, but I dislike everyone being just bulletsponges, because CDPR could not be arsed to code armor in. Yes, enemies do NOT have armor, just tons of hp.

 

[lukaszek]

Yes, enemies do NOT have armor, just tons of hp.

worked for bethesda

 

[Bliblablubb]

One more reason why I call CDPR the Bethesda of Yurop.

Actually one correction: not ALL enemies have no armor in CP77. The guys wearing a lab suit have.. 10 armor.

 

[Gargaune]

I just wanted to see if the active participants in this thread think the situation has changed, and/or the discount can "sweeten the deal" in some way.

The "situation" hasn't changed substantially because there isn't much to change, the game's real issues are a matter of core design, not patch fodder. There are things CDPR could improve, but the fundamentals are a foregone conclusion. Objectively, though, Cyberpunk's a reasonably average mass market popamoler - Codex standards aside, it's not a terrible game, just a terrible disappointment. There's a reason I keep calling it "CDPR's Invisible War."

Or to put it differently, consider that for some unfathomable reason, Horizon: Zero Dawn is regarded by the masses as a "good" modern, open-world Action-RPG. But having watched some of it with profound puzzlement, I genuinely think Cyberpunk 2077 is better bang for your buck and time, provided your hardware satisfies.

 

[Starwars]

Cyberpunk, like the Witcher 3, can be a great... experience. It can be nice to immerse yourself into the world, be dazzled by the visuals, sit along for the story which isn't all that great but has entertaining characters and setpieces along the way.
But as far as gameplay goes, there is just nothing there to immerse yourself in. The shooty shooty and occasional missions can be sort of fun to play but any diving into RPG systems, developing a character, chewing on some meaty gameplay... no. It's not there. In fact, a lot of the gameplay and RPG mechanics are just *extremely* shitty.

It's a popcorn game but the story, setting and all of that has a bit more substance, a bit more atmosphere, a bit more depth, than many other popcorn games.

I liked it when I played it but it's a game where you get occasionally dazzled by the pretty lights, a fun ride, make the occasional choice, rather than diving into any type of deep gameplay. It's a spectacle. The gameplay won't be fixed in any patch or anything.

 

[undecaf]

But as far as gameplay goes, there is just nothing there to immerse yourself in. The shooty shooty and occasional missions can be sort of fun to play but any diving into RPG systems, developing a character, chewing on some meaty gameplay... no. It's not there. In fact, a lot of the gameplay and RPG mechanics are just *extremely* shitty.

Yeah. The one thing that could’ve saved the game at least on some level from being a lukewarm oneoff at best, is the one thing CDPR has no interest in. Gameplay.

 

[typical user]

Why did Cyberpunk failed so spectacularly on a technical level, given the fact it is running on a proven RED engine? Witcher 3 did not suffer from so many major glitches after the initial patches. Have all good programmers left CDPRojekt?

1. Number one reason was they were upgrading their engine and at the same time making the game. One of the devs in Schreier's interview said they were literally laying down tracks for a train going in high speed few meters back. It's the same reason GTA IV and AC: Unity were such crap and why sequels using same tech with little lifting are generally good.
2. Number two, key people left after management denied them promotions and/or raises. Don't know if they have left any documentation but judging by how messed up spaghetti code CP2077 is I think they did not. So key staff resposible for Twitcher success left.
3. Number three is tied to number two. Lack of communication, documentation and version control. I remember the last delay CDPR announced was also the one the developers learned from Twitter. Yes, they weren't notified beforehand, not even from an email. They had to check social media channels targeted at their customers. This also somewhat explains the lies, the marketing didn't know what the hell developers were doing and at the same time developers didn't know what they should be doing. And management thought it is all fine.
4. Number four, from third person fantasy game about sword fighting in slavlands they have decided to do first person shooter in futuristic mega city with hacking and sneaking. It's like asking Maxis to make next FIFA or Need for Speed when all they knew was how to make household and city sims.

It all boils down to management. Seriously with how fucked up the development was it is a miracle no one flushed their entire repository on a hard drive in a toilet. But their confidential data was leaked back in February so maybe that counts? It's even more surprising head of the studio Adam Badowski remains as the leader of this circus.

 

[Gargaune]

Number one reason was they were upgrading their engine and at the same time making the game. One of the devs in Schreier's interview said they were literally laying down tracks for a train going in high speed few meters back. It's the same reason GTA IV and AC: Unity were such crap and why sequels using same tech with little lifting are generally good.

That's not unusual in and of itself. Yes, a major platform evolution is obviously a higher risk than a minor version iteration, but it's fairly common practice for game developers using their own in-house engine. CDPR wasn't going to go "okay, first we're gonna make RED Engine 4, then we're gonna make Cyberpunk 2077 on what we get", they're not a middleware company like Epic became, the engine was always gonna be built for and during CBP's development.

Number two, key people left after management denied them promotions and/or raises. Don't know if they have left any documentation but judging by how messed up spaghetti code CP2077 is I think they did not. So key staff resposible for Twitcher success left.

You guys need to stop using "spaghetti code" to mean "inefficient code" or, worse, "code that doesn't do what I think it should do", they're not synonyms. For all we know, CBP's codebase could be a pristine example of good coding practices, it might just not be best suited to support the game experience we wanted. The game's problems are core design and performance scalability, speculating on code structure is gratuitous.

Number three is tied to number two. Lack of communication, documentation and version control. I remember the last delay CDPR announced was also the one the developers learned from Twitter. Yes, they weren't notified beforehand, not even from an email. They had to check social media channels targeted at their customers. This also somewhat explains the lies, the marketing didn't know what the hell developers were doing and at the same time developers didn't know what they should be doing. And management thought it is all fine.

Yep. That's bad. Very bad.

Number four, from third person fantasy game about sword fighting in slavlands they have decided to do first person shooter in futuristic mega city with hacking and sneaking. It's like asking Maxis to make next FIFA or Need for Speed when all they knew was how to make household and city sims.

Not exactly, in that yes, CDPR obviously didn't fully grasp the expectations they'd incur with Cyberpunk 2077 relative to The Witcher 3, that's the heart of the issue, but that's not to say that a developer can't successfully switch tracks like that. For example, Creative Assembly's Total War had far less common ground with Alien: Isolation and yet the results speak for themselves. I am a fan of specialisation, but it's not a hard limitation, and The Witcher 3 to Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't have been a bridge too far if CDPR had fully appreciated the former's design limitations in porting to the latter.

 

[Perkel]

Why people keep talking as if C77 performs horribly ? It is one of the best looking games and only problem with it is that CDPR overshot old consoles spec especially in therms of SSD vs HDD.

 

[Gerrard]

CDPR keeps lying about the game even after release.

https://gameworldobserver.com/2021/...lements-in-cyberpunk-2077-it-was-a-fking-hell

CD Projekt on creating nonlinear gameplay elements in Cyberpunk 2077: “It was a f**king hell”


CD Projekt RED developers have discussed the process of creating nonlinear gameplay in Cyberpunk 2077. They explained why variability is not always great for a huge game like this, as the team had to spend too much resources on small elements.

Quest director Paweł Sasko addressed the issue during his latest stream on Twitch (via GRY-OnLine.pl), where he usually plays Cyberpunk 2077 and answers the community’s questions.

This time, he invited CD Projekt RED lead quest designer Philipp Weber as a special guest.

Webber cited a quest, where a player has to accompany Takemura on the way to fixer Wakako Okada, as an example of the nonlinear problem. During the mission, you could sit in Takemura’s car and drive to Wakako together, or you could go there on your own, or you could even decline and do nothing.

While these options might seem minor, they all have their own little consequences, including some changes in NPCs’ behavior. So designers had to spend a lot of time and resources to simply work through all these variations, which eventually turned into a real hell, considering a number of quests in Cyberpunk 2077.

“Now we would find a more optimized way to do it, so we don’t spend our resources where it doesn’t really matter,” Webber said. “This, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t as important. But since we were learning while doing it, this became a very, very complicated thing for us to actually do.”

“Yeah, it was a f**king hell,” Sasko concluded.

Considering this experience, CD Projekt now understands that there is no need to add nonlinear options to every small mission as the studio could have spent all this time on more global quests or other elements of Cyberpunk 2077 instead.

 

[typical user]

You guys need to stop using "spaghetti code" to mean "inefficient code" or, worse, "code that doesn't do what I think it should do", they're not synonyms. For all we know, CBP's codebase could be a pristine example of good coding practices, it might just not be best suited to support the game experience we wanted. The game's problems are core design and performance scalability, speculating on code structure is gratuitous.

But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.

 

[Perkel]

But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.

Yes and it would be great if everyone was nice and no wars would happen. Your perfect pristine code doesn't exist outside of some nerd hello world code. Again, you attribute "spagetti code" to some gameplay problems.

Those hardly have anything to do with coding and more to do with design.

Take for an example lack of a huge range of NPC interactions. They just didn't care. It was not GTA game for them. They assumed player will hunt those quests instead and so on. GTA games have to create a lot of npcs stuff because there isn't anything beside it in their games.

It has nothing to do with codebase.

 

[AwesomeButton]

They briefly considered making a game instead of an interactive movie, but the amount of work on reactivity this would entail boggled their minds and they got back to making an interactive movie.

 

[Gargaune]

Webber cited a quest, where a player has to accompany Takemura on the way to fixer Wakako Okada, as an example of the nonlinear problem. During the mission, you could sit in Takemura’s car and drive to Wakako together, or you could go there on your own, or you could even decline and do nothing.

While these options might seem minor, they all have their own little consequences, including some changes in NPCs’ behavior. So designers had to spend a lot of time and resources to simply work through all these variations, which eventually turned into a real hell, considering a number of quests in Cyberpunk 2077.

Wait, game designers have to... design games? Oh, the humanity.

But it is spaghetti code. Miles Tost on patch 1.3 reveal stream said "it is hard fixing bugs, because you change one variable in the system and suddenly everything breaks". If the code was pristine we would see more rapid development and comments like these wouldn't be a thing.

Well, if Miles Tost said it and his programmers didn't string him up by his own shoelaces, I guess it must be true and I stand corrected. Although Cyberpunk's patch cycle hasn't been particularly marred by the sort of regressions that would make me suspect an uncooperative code structure, like how Pathfinder: Kingmaker or NWN EE have suffered, though I suppose you could chalk that up to QA picking up the slack. But Perkel's right from where I'm sitting, the game's problems aren't "unfixed bugs", but a disappointing core design which couldn't be addressed at this point in the product's lifecycle anyway.