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CD Projekt's CYBERPUNK 2077 Release Thread - Phantom Liberty expansion coming in 2023

RobotSquirrel

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It makes no fucking sense that a dynamic global illumination technique would cost you 500gb of storage. You're placing light sources, not textures
I'm fairly certain Cyberpunk 2077 uses light mapping and shadow mapping so this is why. You are using textures and dynamic lights at the same time. I read somewhere that claims it doesn't so I could be wrong and if that is the case CDPR has a lot of explaining to do lol. Witcher 3 on the switch had to use Lightmaps so the engine can use it, the question is does it in this context as well.
 
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Kjaska

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It makes no fucking sense that a dynamic global illumination technique would cost you 500gb of storage. You're placing light sources, not textures
I'm fairly certain Cyberpunk 2077 uses light mapping and shadow mapping so this is why. You are using textures and dynamic lights at the same time. I read somewhere that claims it doesn't so I could be wrong and if that is the case CDPR has a lot of explaining to do lol.

Of course it does. It's on old and trusty technique, but it's not dynamic. The artist places light sources around the world by hand and these are then turned off or on, based on the level of destruction the scene is experiencing. The storage required for that is minimal compared to other assets. Cyberpunk is also not 500gb in installation size. tritosine is connecting dots where there are none.
 

Bad Sector

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Literally the first lines of the shit you've linked say this: [...]
Not to mention they are talking about textures, not lighting.

Shamus was wrong on that one, lighting was a big part of megatextures - instead of lightmaps that are lower resolution textures merged in render time with reusable (and often tiled) higher resolution textures, id Tech 5 (and 6 to some extent) merged everything into a (sort of) single unique texture. The "source" material was still the same textures made in the same way as in other games and the game still had precomputed lighting, however instead of treating textures and lightmaps as separate things, the engine had tools to calculate a new texture (the megatexture) from both textures and lighting at the same time (as well as merging in decals, small meshes, etc) and the renderer only had to worry about that single megatexture.

It is kinda weird that he missed that part considering that at the past he did something similar for a terrain engine he made himself by baking both the texture and lighting on unique terrain textures. Megatexture is basically that, but instead of being only for terrain it is used for everything.

Also what - i assume - tritosine2k is saying is to use megatexture-like functionality for an open world game where you not only bake the lighting in a single time (like Rage did) but also create multiple "megatextures" for different times of day/night and interpolate between them (Assassin's Creed Unity did something like that too AFAIK, but for regular lightmaps). This would obviously require massive amounts of data especially with higher-than-Rage (apparent) texture resolutions, hence the mention of streaming.

(having said all that i'm not sure if that'd really be practical, especially when it is much much cheaper for everyone involved to just let realtime raytracing do the GI job and just expect that nextgen GPUs will be better at tracing rays to reach 60fps)
 

Bad Sector

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'megatextures' is just a marketing word for virtual texturing, basically every modern game uses it

Megatextures are more of an implementation of virtual texturing (remember that it is entirely done in software) and while some (though not so many as to say that basically every modern game uses them) modern games do use sparse textures / tiled resources (same thing, different name between OpenGL/Vulkan and Direct3D), they are very rarely used like in megatextures. Modern use tends to be limited to specific parts of the world (often terrain) and instead of loading the tile data off disk directly, they are generated on the fly which allows for higher fidelity "textures" but without the enormous disk usage of a megatexture-like approach would require.

Not sure what UE5 would do that, i haven't looked into how nanite works, however when i toyed with the idea of virtual geometry some time ago i stored everything in textures so that i could use virtual texturing for streaming in the data (i never went on doing that since i lost interest pretty much the same day i posted the video since i have no use for such high polycounts myself), so if nanite does something similar i'd expect future games to actually rely a lot on it (especially if PS5-like direct-to-GPU data streaming becomes more widespread).
 

tritosine2k

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https://jcgt.org/published/0004/04/01/

(having said all that i'm not sure if that'd really be practical, especially when it is much much cheaper for everyone involved to just let realtime raytracing do the GI job and just expect that nextgen GPUs will be better at tracing rays to reach 60fps

Wakey wakey.

1.There will be always more holes than cheese with realtime RT. Carmack was right. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...me-ray-tracing-card/?comments=1&post=23723213
2.Meanwhile megatexture pipeline just can use photogrammetry if you want something both really cheap and really massive.

So you can even instinctively say:
This might work really well in an open-world game like Fallout.(Paraphrase)

And it's very true.
 
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Bad Sector

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1.There will be always more holes than cheese with realtime RT. Carmack was right. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/201...me-ray-tracing-card/?comments=1&post=23723213

This is a very old article that predates Nvidia's RTX implementations which addresses most of the issues mentioned there and that article is basically Carmack repeating a much older reply he had.

2.Meanwhile megatexture pipeline just can use photogrammetry if you want something both really cheap and really massive.

Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related, one will give you raw high fidelity (though messy) data for 3D models, the other (remember that we refer to the approach used by id Tech 5/6, not sparse resources in general) will give you a large texture to store surface data data in (it doesn't store surfaces though).
 

tritosine2k

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1. "Old", is just handwaving, everything he says still stands, most of this Lumen stuff is very laggy temporal reconstruction that's unfit for action games & >30watt clients fell out of fashion really hard,while Rage looks good enough, Order1886 is good enough even without remasters, not to mention both have MSAA instead of that blurry temporal reconstruction that even makes Diablo2 resurrected unplayable to many.

2. "Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related," how do you know? Photogrammetry and reverse modeling is improving hence uptick in "neural radiance field" publications, it's literally all over the place. Meanwhile in AAA
widen_1840x0.png
 

Wesp5

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I don't care what texture modus Unreal Engine 5 uses, but hopefully it doesn't have the textures-popping-in-while-looking problem that all other Unreal Engines and many others have :)!
 

Abu Antar

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

DeepOcean

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About the sales number, problem is that from those 18 million copies, Cyberbug only sold 4 millions on 2021, while this hardly means CDPR will be bankrupt, it means a reduction on the interest on the game after the launch debacle and the ridiculously long patch cycle as some sources claim CDPR was expecting sales closer to the Witcher 3 levels, the massive bad reputation from the launch disaster sticked and the new gen version barely did a dent into fixing that what was their goal, it seems CDPR is abandoning the Cyberbug Titanic.

So, for the few true believers remaining that still believe CDPR will keep supporting this game in large scale are up to a rude awakening, CDPR scrapped their plans to add multiplayer functionality on Cyberbug engine and that means they are pushing hard their transition to Unreal right now and scaling back any remaining investment on RedEngine, if you look to their man power distribution chart, the part for Witcher 4 only grows larger. People are talking of "expansions" but lately the CDPR PR is mentioning "expansion", meaning, they arent commiting on a second expansion and it is questionable if the first expansion wont be just a glorified DLC.

Hilariously, CDPR setup an internal committee that will be elected by employees to advise the management if they have a massive fuck up like this on their hands again, supposedly a committee like this wont be made of sychopants that say what the management want to hear as they are on a group, and in theory, as there is less of a threat of they losing their jobs, they will speak their minds. Of course, one could ask the question of how about the management stop having their heads on their asses?
 

Old Hans

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1. "Old", is just handwaving, everything he says still stands, most of this Lumen stuff is very laggy temporal reconstruction that's unfit for action games & >30watt clients fell out of fashion really hard,while Rage looks good enough, Order1886 is good enough even without remasters, not to mention both have MSAA instead of that blurry temporal reconstruction that even makes Diablo2 resurrected unplayable to many.

2. "Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related," how do you know? Photogrammetry and reverse modeling is improving hence uptick in "neural radiance field" publications, it's literally all over the place. Meanwhile in AAA
widen_1840x0.png
this game still looks amazing.
 

EvilWolf

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About the sales number, problem is that from those 18 million copies, Cyberbug only sold 4 millions on 2021, while this hardly means CDPR will be bankrupt, it means a reduction on the interest on the game after the launch debacle and the ridiculously long patch cycle as some sources claim CDPR was expecting sales closer to the Witcher 3 levels, the massive bad reputation from the launch disaster sticked and the new gen version barely did a dent into fixing that what was their goal, it seems CDPR is abandoning the Cyberbug Titanic.

So, for the few true believers remaining that still believe CDPR will keep supporting this game in large scale are up to a rude awakening, CDPR scrapped their plans to add multiplayer functionality on Cyberbug engine and that means they are pushing hard their transition to Unreal right now and scaling back any remaining investment on RedEngine, if you look to their man power distribution chart, the part for Witcher 4 only grows larger. People are talking of "expansions" but lately the CDPR PR is mentioning "expansion", meaning, they arent commiting on a second expansion and it is questionable if the first expansion wont be just a glorified DLC.

Hilariously, CDPR setup an internal committee that will be elected by employees to advise the management if they have a massive fuck up like this on their hands again, supposedly a committee like this wont be made of sychopants that say what the management want to hear as they are on a group, and in theory, as there is less of a threat of they losing their jobs, they will speak their minds. Of course, one could ask the question of how about the management stop having their heads on their asses?
Cyberpunk already has, initial, Witcher 3 numbers. The majority of Witcher 3 sales come from the Steam sale after Blood & Wine released, that sale alone dwarfed all the, combined, console sales CDPR had previously bragged about. The same will happen when the Cyberpunk expansions come out.

Screencap this.
 

Wesp5

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So, for the few true believers remaining that still believe CDPR will keep supporting this game in large scale are up to a rude awakening...

This shouldn't be too bad in the long run, because modders can only really fix the game if CDPR stops issueing patches themselves :)!
 

Dwarvophile

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1. "Old", is just handwaving, everything he says still stands, most of this Lumen stuff is very laggy temporal reconstruction that's unfit for action games & >30watt clients fell out of fashion really hard,while Rage looks good enough, Order1886 is good enough even without remasters, not to mention both have MSAA instead of that blurry temporal reconstruction that even makes Diablo2 resurrected unplayable to many.

2. "Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related," how do you know? Photogrammetry and reverse modeling is improving hence uptick in "neural radiance field" publications, it's literally all over the place. Meanwhile in AAA
widen_1840x0.png
this game still looks amazing.

Is this The Division ? It looked good & was well optimised.
 

tritosine2k

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Messages
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1. "Old", is just handwaving, everything he says still stands, most of this Lumen stuff is very laggy temporal reconstruction that's unfit for action games & >30watt clients fell out of fashion really hard,while Rage looks good enough, Order1886 is good enough even without remasters, not to mention both have MSAA instead of that blurry temporal reconstruction that even makes Diablo2 resurrected unplayable to many.

2. "Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related," how do you know? Photogrammetry and reverse modeling is improving hence uptick in "neural radiance field" publications, it's literally all over the place. Meanwhile in AAA
widen_1840x0.png
this game still looks amazing.

Is this The Division ? It looked good & was well optimised.


Yeah it has every right to look good for such money. In exchange you get expansion and new games this "frequently". it's also precomputed GI and too smooth btw. The argument was about whether you spend millions on 3d models instead or you should just "scan it" along with whole environments eg. photogrammetry to release and not even shitcan stuff because it doesn't match and etc.
imageresizer.ashxnhttcgjfd.jpg
 
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If only the city could have online that would let people make their own stories with the city
Then let me tell you about this one tabletop RPG that is a lot like Cyberpunk 2077...
i discovered there's more than 3rd edition cyberpunk, there's another update, came out with the videogame. it's a cyberpunk game where everyone is good, it's even stated that fixers sell drugs and weapons only because they want for cartels to kill each other, they smuggle, deal and pimp for the greater good. there's not a single evil character in the whole game.
 

Peachcurl

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i discovered there's more than 3rd edition cyberpunk, there's another update, came out with the videogame. it's a cyberpunk game where everyone is good, it's even stated that fixers sell drugs and weapons only because they want for cartels to kill each other, they smuggle, deal and pimp for the greater good. there's not a single evil character in the whole game.

sounds like the cartels are evil tho?
 
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only if you're not the boss, then it becames all a covert operation for when you'll dismantle it from the inside.
it's like discovering your childhood hero, the one who shaped your masculinity, likes to take it in the ass.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
1. "Old", is just handwaving, everything he says still stands

Actually no because most of what he says was about traditional Whitted raytracing which is actually inferior to rasterization and his skepticism on requiring billions of rays for better results was without taking modern developments on denoising algorithms into account - denoising by itself changes things considerably. The hardware he is criticizing is also way more limited than modern HW and was supposed to be something separate that cannot take advantage of the rest of a GPU while modern use of HW raytracing relies heavily on the rest of a GPUs functionality (e.g. denoising, building shading caches, variable rate shading, etc).

most of this Lumen stuff is very laggy temporal reconstruction that's unfit for action games

Carmack wrote that literally more than a decade before Lumen.

while Rage looks good enough, Order1886 is good enough even without remasters

Sure though at least Rage has issues with detail up close that it tries to mask by using a noise texture everywhere.

not to mention both have MSAA instead of that blurry temporal reconstruction that even makes Diablo2 resurrected unplayable to many.

This is irrelevant to what we discussed so far.

"Photogrammetry and megatextures are not really related," how do you know?

Because one is about scanning high detailed models, the other is about having gigantic virtualized textures used to bake smaller textures, lighting and other surface information into them to be streamed in realtime as you traverse the environment.

Photogrammetry and reverse modeling is improving hence uptick in "neural radiance field" publications, it's literally all over the place.

Maybe but this has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
 

gurugeorge

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Strap Yourselves In
Life imitates art. (Metaverse's Somnium ounds very much like Mikoshi, etc., also a bit Ex Machina)

“Literally, if I die—and I have this data collected—people can come or my kids, they can come in, and they can have a conversation with my avatar, with my movements, with my voice,” CEO Artur Sychov told Vice. “You will meet the person. And you would maybe for the first 10 minutes while talking to that person, you would not know that it’s actually AI. That’s the goal.” - from RT article on Gab
 

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