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Character systems dissected at Twenty Sided

Calis

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Jun 15, 2002
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Twenty Sided recently published a pair of short pieces dissecting character systems. The author seems to like lots of non-overlapping, non-trivial stats at his disposal. The first piece was <A HREF="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1491" target="_blank">about Eschalon's system</A>:
<blockquote>The division of Dexterity and Speed confused me at first. Most games combine these two concepts. But I can imagine cases where you’d have one but not the other. A jeweler or a locksmith might be capable of lots of fine detail work even if they have slow reflexes. A boxer might be very quick yet imprecise. The distinction makes sense, although I’m still unclear on how it works in practice. Since this is a turn-based game and everyone gets a single turn no matter how high or low their speed is, I have trouble understand exactly what the payoff is for putting points into speed.</blockquote>
The other piece published <A HREF="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1497" target="_blank">discusses SPECIAL</A>, with somewhat of a critical view towards the skill list but lauding its absence of completely trivial stats:
<blockquote>Every attribute is meaningful for every character, and there aren’t any obvious “dump stats”. Creating a character is a matter of balancing tradeoffs, not min-maxing the crap out of your stats. You can if you want, but you will regret that 3 charisma or 2 intelligence before you get very far.</blockquote>
Stat and skill triviality or imbalance can screw up gameplay in a CRPG, kids. There's been a bit of talk on our forum recently on balance in Arcanum, coming back to the same conclusion that was reached shortly after the game's release: no balance whatsoever playing a gunslinger / gunsmith character is a dumb idea (though that's how I finished it on my first playthrough). If you're going with a shitload of skills and stats, you'd better make sure they're all useful in the game and the first-playthrough player isn't forced to play "let's guess which stats the game designers want me to use".
<i>Thanks, Mysterious Contact Form Man whom we shouldn't credit.</i>
 

Hory

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Oct 1, 2003
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Playing a "techie" isn't a dumb idea if you prefer challenge and originality (how many RPGs can you do this in?).
 
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Whats the problem with playing a techie (and especially gunslingers) in Arcanum? My gunslinger pwned everything in turn based mode...
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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I missed the discussion you are referring to you, Calis, but I wouldn't describe playing a technologist in Arcanum as a dumb idea. I played several "techies" and it was a blast. I didn't have any problems playing through the game and using my inventions with impressive efficiency.

Sure, if you pull out a spreadsheet and start comparing overall damage output to the points invested, then we can all agree that pure melee fighters or harm-casting mages are having easier time dealing with the game combat challenges, but is it really the point of the game?
 

Calis

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Vault Dweller said:
I missed the discussion you are referring to you, Calis, but I wouldn't describe playing a technologist in Arcanum as a dumb idea. I played several "techies" and it was a blast. I didn't have any problems playing through the game and using my inventions with impressive efficiency.

Sure, if you pull out a spreadsheet and start comparing overall damage output to the points invested, then we can all agree that pure melee fighters or harm-casting mages are having easier time dealing with the game combat challenges, but is it really the point of the game?
Well, my dwarven gunslinger got to the finish line just fine as well, it's just that, when compared to later games with magick-oriented characters, I started realizing that guns weren't really that effective compared to the amount of effort put into hunting down parts for them. But I'll give you that variation for the sake of variation isn't a bad thing, even if some character development paths make for a more difficult game than others.
TalesfromtheCrypt said:
Whats the problem with playing a techie (and especially gunslingers) in Arcanum? My gunslinger pwned everything in turn based mode...
Well, to tell you the truth, the last time I played an Arcanum gunslinger was in 2001, maybe the character path isn't as nerfed as I remember it to be.
 

dagorkan

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Calis said:
Twenty Sided recently published a pair of short pieces dissecting character systems. The author seems to like lots of non-overlapping, non-trivial stats at his disposal. The first piece was <A HREF="http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1491" target="_blank">about Eschalon's system</A>:
<blockquote>The division of Dexterity and Speed confused me at first. Most games combine these two concepts. But I can imagine cases where you’d have one but not the other. A jeweler or a locksmith might be capable of lots of fine detail work even if they have slow reflexes. A boxer might be very quick yet imprecise. The distinction makes sense, although I’m still unclear on how it works in practice. Since this is a turn-based game and everyone gets a single turn no matter how high or low their speed is, I have trouble understand exactly what the payoff is for putting points into speed.</blockquote>
The guy's a dumbfuck. Separating dexterity and agility/reflexes or whatever you want to call it is not unusual. And Speed gives you major combat bonuses in Eschalon, Dexterity is purely for non-combat skills I believe, maybe it helps for archery.
 

Andhaira

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Every attribute is meaningful for every character, and there aren’t any obvious “dump stats”. Creating a character is a matter of balancing tradeoffs, not min-maxing the crap out of your stats. You can if you want, but you will regret that 3 charisma or 2 intelligence before you get very far.

Got that right. In fact, maixing charisma wont get you far before you are forcibly thrust into brutal combat. Oh and good luck with using that charisma on the rats you are confronted with right form the get go. *rolls eyes*
 

dagorkan

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Off the top of me head, games that distinguish 'quickness' and 'dexterity/accuracy':

Dragonquest
Palladium
Warhammer FRP
Shadowrun
AD&D 2nd Ed (w/ official optional rules)
ALL of the ICE games (except MERP)
 

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
RoA uses Agility and Dexterity.

For example, agility is associated with the climbing skill, while dexterity is associated with the lockpicking skill.
 

Morbus

Scholar
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Andhaira said:
Every attribute is meaningful for every character, and there aren’t any obvious “dump stats”. Creating a character is a matter of balancing tradeoffs, not min-maxing the crap out of your stats. You can if you want, but you will regret that 3 charisma or 2 intelligence before you get very far.

Got that right. In fact, maixing charisma wont get you far before you are forcibly thrust into brutal combat. Oh and good luck with using that charisma on the rats you are confronted with right form the get go. *rolls eyes*
What exactly are you trying to say? I often get charisma 8 (and then have the shades), just because of the party. It's practically the only thing it's there for, few dialog lines are fully charisma dependent. A not so dumb stat is Agility, because you really want it, and the next not so dumb is intelligence, because you also really want it. The only really dumb stat in the game (and even then, it's not fully dumb) is endurance...
 

dagorkan

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If you want to criticize SPECIAL it should be that many stats (EN, CH, AG) at odd values are completely useless (because hit points, max NPCs, APs are "divide by two and round down")... and you need to read a manual to know that. And second, that there are a lot of arbitrary threshold checks, eg IN 6 is hardly any better than IN 5 but IN 7 changes the whole game experience. You need a walkthrough to know that.

Which could all have been fixed if stat/skill checks were made against random rolls.
 

Shagnak

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Claw said:
RoA uses Agility and Dexterity.

For example, agility is associated with the climbing skill, while dexterity is associated with the lockpicking skill.
Yeah, that's using Dexterity as manual Dexterity (i.e. "he's good with his hands"). That always seemed sensible to me. And then Agility for measuring how physically agile they are overall (balance, finesse, etc), and Reflexes as a measure of quickness or reaction speed. There are PnP games that use all of these.
 

dagorkan

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I like:

Code:
]Table 1: List of Abilities
Ability        Abbr.
Intelligence   INT
Memory         MEM
Perception     PER
Will           WIL
Dexterity      DEX
Reflexes       REF
Strength       STR
Constitution   CON

Intelligence (INT)
Intelligence is a very nebulous rating of the character's
general smartness, including reasoning abilities and
general mental speed. Intelligence also includes intuition.

Memory (MEM)
Memory is the ability to remember information,
images, and vocabulary.
It should never be used by players or GMs to decide
whether the GM should ‘remind’ the players of something
they had forgotten but which was of relevance as this
detracts greatly from the role-playing experience.

Perception (PCN)
This ability is a measure of a character's awareness of
his or her surroundings. Perception also helps the
character track moving objects and guess the location of
hidden yet moving objects. Artistic awareness is also
based on this ability.

Will (WIL)
Will is the force of ones personality, a measure of self
control, and the power one is able to project onto others.
This last aspect is also called Presence (Pre), described
below.

(Presense used to be a stat. This ability reflects the
intensity of a character's personality. It is related to, but
not the same as, charisma. Charisma is how attractive a
person can make himself, while PRE is a measure of the
force of their personality. A truly courtly person would be
both charismatic and have a high presence. On the other
hand, Nosferatu has low physical appearance but an
exceptionally high PRE.)

Willpower can be used to force onself to keep
marching, to remain concious without food, to not
succumb to torture, and all of this stuff. In short, the main
use of will is to withstand pain.

Dexterity (DEX)
Dexterity is a measure of the character's general
physical coordination. Manual dexterity is only one
aspect of DEX.

Reflexes (REF)
Reflexes are a measure of the character's physical
quickness. While dexterous characters may be able to
pick locks, speedy characters are better able to respond
quickly to stimulus such as falling rocks.

Reflexes are used to determine who acts first in the
first round of a combat. Someone who gets to act first in a
situation is said to have initiative. This can be extremely
valuable in some circumstances. In addition, reflexes help
with all forms of combat from wielding weapons
effectively to responding quickly enough to dodge
oncoming blows.

Strength (STR)
Strength reflects the character's ability to lift heavy
weights, wield weapons, and wear heavy armor. Physical
strength also contributes to the damage a character causes
in combat.

The table below gives a rough estimate of how much
weight a person could pick up off the floor with minimal
pain, provided the weight was in a manageable bundle.
Note that many people have different kinds of strength,
such as strong legs and weak arms, etc. We suggest
adjusting strength slightly based on life-style, such as
running skill increasing leg strength or sailing increasing
arm strength.

Constitution (CON)

This ability reflects the general health of the character.
This ability affects a person’s resistance to pestilence,
poisons, and other afflictions. CON also affects the rate of
recovery from damage.

Constitution is also the base ability for determining
the Stamina ability score. Stamina is a measure of the
body’s ability to sustain fatigue without loss of function.
Cardio-vascular health, important while running and
fighting, is part of this ability.

Stamina determines how much damage and fatigue a
character can withstand before falling unconscious.
Stamina is very useful in negating the effects of damage
during a fight. The higher the STA ability, the easier it is
to shake off stuns and shock, and thus negate penalties
for being hit in combat.
 

Hellraiser

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Danzig, Potato-Hitman Commonwealth
Bah I need to finish Arcanum someday. I got to caladon (sp) and got generally pissed off because the automatic or was it mechanized gun I used while powerful ate 6 bullets per attack. Having to travel back several times between locations just to stock up on a shit load of ammo to clear the damn locations out of enemies was getting tiring.

Other than that, the firearms master quest and maybe the early game I had no problems as a gunsmith gunslinger.
 

Crichton

Prophet
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
1,210
Bah I need to finish Arcanum someday. I got to caladon (sp) and got generally pissed off because the automatic or was it mechanized gun I used while powerful ate 6 bullets per attack. Having to travel back several times between locations just to stock up on a shit load of ammo to clear the damn locations out of enemies was getting tiring.

This is very true, with max dex, you're looking at 25 shots a round, even with Sogg carrying ammo, that really tears through your supply. I've found that it's best to use the looking glass rifle for most fights and save the mechanized gun for the important stuff.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
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Jun 18, 2002
Messages
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Looking Glass Rifle + Army of Automatons = Pure Win. Sorry but magic blew chunks in Arcanum. Never really liked the whole "I'm casting until I fall unconscious" thing which happened to me a lot. Not that I dislike the system or the concept, just that I much prefer stocking up on ammo and letting fly without having to spam mana potions.

Calis said:
Thanks, Mysterious Contact Form Man whom we shouldn't credit.
You know, we really should just make him a newsie and be done with it.
 

Calis

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Messages
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DarkUnderlord said:
You know, we really should just make him a newsie and be done with it.
I suspect his gaming journalism bosses would frown on that.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
DarkUnderlord said:
Looking Glass Rifle + Army of Automatons = Pure Win. Sorry but magic blew chunks in Arcanum. Never really liked the whole "I'm casting until I fall unconscious" thing which happened to me a lot. Not that I dislike the system or the concept, just that I much prefer stocking up on ammo and letting fly without having to spam mana potions.

Calis said:
Thanks, Mysterious Contact Form Man whom we shouldn't credit.
You know, we really should just make him a newsie and be done with it.


DU , i think that's because you lack control on the magic you spent, direct dmg is just too rewarding to be ignored but there's always summoning, and immobilizing spells (utility spells) that makes combat go much easier without knocking you unconcious.

There is an imbalance with the XP reward system if anything that favors direct dmg dealers over anything else. There's nothing really badly imbalancing about the spells themselves, but my main gripe is 'clone spells'. Having 2.and up to 5 spells active on yourself is powerful enough but alllowing duplicate spells to stack...that's just criminal, even techie drugs cant do that.
 

elander_

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,015
Great articles. I'm going to start following this Twenty Sided blog more often.

Magic characters offer a great oppourtunity that game designers often miss to create original gameplay for that character. I always saw a magicien as an influent guy who usually guides or intimidates people with charming spells and illusions and rarely resorts to brutish actions like casting fireballs.
 

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