Editorial Chris Avellone on Doing Planescape: Torment Successor

[Infinitron]

Personally, I enjoy Planescape: Torment precisely because it is such a story-centred and, above all, text-heavy game. Without its abundant, well-written dialogue and text descriptions, it would be little more than a Baldur's Gate clone in a superior setting but without the interesting fights. As for a possible sequel, I always tend to recall this ominous quote from MCA:

What would I do differently if I was doing Torment today? Today, I would have had more NPC responses be reflected in animation and facial expression rather than just text. I'd also like a lot of dialogue options be represented visually, instead of described.

This, in my opinion, would completely kill Planescape: Torment. I am no enemy of advanced graphics per se, beautiful backgrounds and characters definitely help to set the mood of the game (and Torment really excelled at this), but intimate details are better conveyed through text since imagination is a far more powerful tool than animation will ever be. Furthermore, extensive dialogue trees offer the greatest amount of choice and, dare I say it, immersion to the player, and also explain the choices much better than some dumbed-down systems involving quick-time events and conversation wheels.

Fortunately, the budget isn't there to make that kind of game. There Will Be Text.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

There are character portraits to reflect different emotions, like in many Japanese games. Simple, cheap, effective, non intrusive.

 

[ironyuri]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.



Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

Pfft, what are you gonna reference next, Crime & Punishment?

YOU'RE TEARING ME APAAAAAAAART, RASKOL!

 

[asper]

Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

Did anyone claim it was?

 

[Marsal]

u trollin?
The problem is exactly when they try to implement new combat systems.
The thing is... they don't need to invent any new combat now.
They can use OGL.

No, the problem is in implementation, bro. They didn't invent a new combat system for PS:T and yet it was shit. They even had an engine and they somehow managed to fuck up the combat.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Chris Avellone has written up a piece for Kotaku on how he would do a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment. He says this probably won't be an Obsidian Kickstarter, but that he'll throw some ideas out anyway.

That is actually a good thing, because Obsidian requires 1 m. $ a month to survive. That would seriously handicap the chance of PST ever seeing the light of day.

1. The combat in PST sucked just like all RTwP games.

2. If I wanted RPGs with bad combat I would play AAA RPGs.

3. For a Kickstarter game if they go TB and I'll give them lots of money. If they go RTwP and I won't give them a dime.

1. In PST it sucked, because of D&D 2nd ed. 3.5 ed in Motb was much better.
2. Please do if you feel no difference. There are plenty AAA "RPGs" to choose from.
3. I am sure it will be felt. That's juvenile blackmailing...

I hope they do make it RTwP, just for the glorious amounts of butthurt it will generate on the Codex.

It's a successor of a RTwP game, so it should be RTwp. Besides RTwP is better for different classes than RT and Planescape should have different classes. Codex rage and butthurt will continue forever, it will just stop for short moments when New Shit™ will be released...

 

[DwarvenFood]

higher game has risen pretends to be a christian troll but he cannot into themes of guilt & punishment, suffering leading to redemption.



Game equivalent to Les Misérables, this is not.

Pfft, what are you gonna reference next, Crime & Punishment?

YOU'RE TEARING ME APAAAAAAAART, RASKOL!

Why is the axe facing the wrong way ?

 

[grotsnik]

'Cos Raskolnikov beats her to death with the blunt end.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

What do you think when you remember Torment?

Not combat. Baldur's gate and icewind dale have better combat. So I dont really care much if he retain RTwP or TB. Real time action will be troublesome but if I can deal with Bloodlines' combat, I can deal with it.

It's the memory of wonder. You can never be sure what you are walking into when you click your character into that portal. Will it be a humongous city? Or a big ass boneframe? Or a grey and dark maze? You can never be sure. So a multitude of very interesting locations are one factor. Check.

It's the memory of recovering memory in various location. Of trying to figure out whatever the hell does it mean. Various personalities of incarnations. So amnesia and recover memories are another factor. Check.

Immortal? Not so much. There's a few scene of memorable qualities link with that aspect, but not enough. Check.

Item with stories? Fuck yeah. I remember the Robe/Eye of Verna, or the Mechanus' Cannon, etc... Much better than items in IWD or BG. Do you remember the first collectible teeth for Morte? or the stories with each circle of Dakkon's Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon. Check.

Writings of highest quality? oh yeah. There's not much like it later. Bloodlines, maybe. And check.

So he makes a very good list. Worthy to get drool over.

I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this is also part of why I really didn't gel with Planescape. Sure, the constant discovery of weird things sounds interesting, but it also made the game feel like a series of unconnected ideas for things that would look weird and messed up. Avellone admitted as much in an interview, as in, Planescape is a collection of "dude, it will be AWESOME!" things and quest ideas he thought of. I think this is a game that is less than the sum of its parts for this reason. More of a gimmick than a game.

 

[l3loodAngel]

1. Just like in Alpha Protocol, it has well written characters, but characters that get lost in their own narcissism, and it is all it has going for it.
2. I'm not a teen, so I'm not looking for another gothic emo fetch quest clickfest to keep myself from suiciding.
3. Others don't talk all the time about what their pompous game design and philosophy theories are for some 12 years, and delivered actual games that played like ones.

1. And the dumb fuck of the month award goes to... AP well written characters? Meet SiS - a mute commando squad leader. Zie - a German woman that carries a fucking machine gun. And you compare this shit to PST?

2. Oh so this is new codex description of PST?

3. Yes, yes, yes man. And what was actually delivered?

Seriously fuck you and those who brofisted you.

 

[Mrowak]

1. Just like in Alpha Protocol, it has well written characters, but characters that get lost in their own narcissism, and it is all it has going for it.
2. I'm not a teen, so I'm not looking for another gothic emo fetch quest clickfest to keep myself from suiciding.
3. Others don't talk all the time about what their pompous game design and philosophy theories are for some 12 years, and delivered actual games that played like ones.

1. And the dumb fuck of the month award goes to... AP well written characters? Meet SiS - a mute commando squad leader. Zie - a German woman that carries a fucking machine gun. And you compare this shit to PST?

Well they were well written... the thing is, they were intentionally campy, like the characters from 70-90s Bond movies only in 2000s setting. But I still fucking fail to see any narcissism - in AP or in Planescape. In fact in PS:T they are way less self-centered than in your average fantasy pulp D&D campaign/Salvatore novel. The characters didn't even come across as heroic, which stands in direct opposition in what we actualy get in high fantasy settings.

2. Oh so this is new codex description of PST?

3. Yes, yes, yes man. And what was actually delivered?

I will only add that MCA actually has delivered lots of quality content in the area he specialises since PS:T - MotB, Kotor, and yes AP come to my mind.

 

[Mrowak]

What do you think when you remember Torment?

Not combat. Baldur's gate and icewind dale have better combat. So I dont really care much if he retain RTwP or TB. Real time action will be troublesome but if I can deal with Bloodlines' combat, I can deal with it.

It's the memory of wonder. You can never be sure what you are walking into when you click your character into that portal. Will it be a humongous city? Or a big ass boneframe? Or a grey and dark maze? You can never be sure. So a multitude of very interesting locations are one factor. Check.

It's the memory of recovering memory in various location. Of trying to figure out whatever the hell does it mean. Various personalities of incarnations. So amnesia and recover memories are another factor. Check.

Immortal? Not so much. There's a few scene of memorable qualities link with that aspect, but not enough. Check.

Item with stories? Fuck yeah. I remember the Robe/Eye of Verna, or the Mechanus' Cannon, etc... Much better than items in IWD or BG. Do you remember the first collectible teeth for Morte? or the stories with each circle of Dakkon's Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon. Check.

Writings of highest quality? oh yeah. There's not much like it later. Bloodlines, maybe. And check.

So he makes a very good list. Worthy to get drool over.

I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this is also part of why I really didn't gel with Planescape. Sure, the constant discovery of weird things sounds interesting, but it also made the game feel like a series of unconnected ideas for things that would look weird and messed up. Avellone admitted as much in an interview, as in, Planescape is a collection of "dude, it will be AWESOME!" things and quest ideas he thought of. I think this is a game that is less than the sum of its parts for this reason. More of a gimmick than a game.

Actually, I would argue the opposite. PS:T setting was a very well thought out world with many parts referencing each other, little side quests spanning over hours of gameplay, and plenty of secrets. Lots of side stories and characteres make the world seem believeable and are just mesmerising. They may have failed in one or two instances, but the overal picture is extremely coherent despite the fact the that is depicts a fantasy setting. Secondary world is super effective. Suspension of disbelief achieved.

I can't say the same about many "normal" fantasy settings (e.g. Dragon Age 2) which fall apart very quickly.

 

[laclongquan]

What do you think when you remember Torment?

Not combat. Baldur's gate and icewind dale have better combat. So I dont really care much if he retain RTwP or TB. Real time action will be troublesome but if I can deal with Bloodlines' combat, I can deal with it.

It's the memory of wonder. You can never be sure what you are walking into when you click your character into that portal. Will it be a humongous city? Or a big ass boneframe? Or a grey and dark maze? You can never be sure. So a multitude of very interesting locations are one factor. Check.

It's the memory of recovering memory in various location. Of trying to figure out whatever the hell does it mean. Various personalities of incarnations. So amnesia and recover memories are another factor. Check.

Immortal? Not so much. There's a few scene of memorable qualities link with that aspect, but not enough. Check.

Item with stories? Fuck yeah. I remember the Robe/Eye of Verna, or the Mechanus' Cannon, etc... Much better than items in IWD or BG. Do you remember the first collectible teeth for Morte? or the stories with each circle of Dakkon's Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon. Check.

Writings of highest quality? oh yeah. There's not much like it later. Bloodlines, maybe. And check.

So he makes a very good list. Worthy to get drool over.

I really don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but this is also part of why I really didn't gel with Planescape. Sure, the constant discovery of weird things sounds interesting, but it also made the game feel like a series of unconnected ideas for things that would look weird and messed up. Avellone admitted as much in an interview, as in, Planescape is a collection of "dude, it will be AWESOME!" things and quest ideas he thought of. I think this is a game that is less than the sum of its parts for this reason. More of a gimmick than a game.

That's why it's called Your Mileage May Vary. You dont need to have the same taste as this collection of weirdos and obssessionists. Have the same taste as the rest of gamers can work fine for you, old chap.

 

[l3loodAngel]

1. Well they were well written... the thing is, they were intentionally campy, like the characters from 70-90s Bond movies only in 2000s setting. But I still fucking fail to see any narcissism - in AP or in Planescape. 2. The characters didn't even come across as heroic, which stands in direct opposition in what we actualy get in high fantasy settings.

1. Dude they sucked, live with it. The only decent character was Leland. I really don't care what they were trying to emulate.
2. In PST your companions are white trash. How can anyone call them heroic? Anna a thief. A slut Fall from grace. Ignus a cursed/mad mage that wanted to burn down the entire city. Vhailor a dead/delusional Mercykiller.

3. Yes, yes, yes man. And what was actually delivered?

I will only add that MCA actually has delivered lots of quality content in the area he specialises since PS:T - MotB, Kotor, and yes AP come to my mind.

I am not sure about quality of AP, but that may be just me. When I replied to "that" I asked the the question about what games where actually delivered in the past years that were not made by MCA and were good.

 

[Mrowak]

1. Well they were well written... the thing is, they were intentionally campy, like the characters from 70-90s Bond movies only in 2000s setting. But I still fucking fail to see any narcissism - in AP or in Planescape. 2. The characters didn't even come across as heroic, which stands in direct opposition in what we actualy get in high fantasy settings.

1. Dude they sucked, live with it. The only decent character was Leland. I really don't care what they were trying to emulate.

It achieved what it wanted to achieve - they wanted pulpy characters from James Bond movies? Well, they are here. A good writing is like that, even if you didn't like it. Bad writing is when the author tries to depict something but falls flat on the face: e.g. in DA2, Hawk being heroic, noble and intelligent.

2. In PST your companions are white trash. How can anyone call them heroic? Anna a thief. A slut Fall from grace. Ignus a cursed/mad mage that wanted to burn down the entire city. Vhailor a dead/delusional Mercykiller.

That's exactly why I fail to see how narcisstic they are... Well, maybe Ignus was kinda self-centerd, but he was a madman.

3. Yes, yes, yes man. And what was actually delivered?

I will only add that MCA actually has delivered lots of quality content in the area he specialises since PS:T - MotB, Kotor, and yes AP come to my mind.

I am not sure about quality of AP, but that may be just me. When I replied to "that" I asked the the question about what games where actually delivered in the past years that were not made by MCA and were good.

Yeah, I knew it. It was more of a reply to Humanity... my addition, the all "I will only add...".

 

[l3loodAngel]

It achieved what it wanted to achieve - they wanted pulpy characters from James Bond movies? Well, they are here. A good writing is like that, even if you didn't like it. Bad writing is when the author tries to depict something but falls flat on the face: e.g. in DA2, Hawk being heroic, noble and intelligent.

Following this logic it does not matter what you write, it only matters how you write.

Well, maybe Ignus was kinda self-centerd, but he was a madman.

He was centered around fire and burning everything.

Yeah, I knew it. It was more of a reply to Humanity... my addition, the all "I will only add...".

My bad.

 

[913]

I don't quite understand whether MCA is talking hypothetically, or he'd do it if given the chance (i.e. if he were actually paid by a publisher to write one entire year for the game he wants to do). Either way, it looks like Kickstarter is now very serious business even for an established developer like Obsidian, so whatever happens to Wasteland 2 and Obsidian's future project might make or break an "old-school" RPG renaissance.

But I would rob a bank for MCA's PST "spiritual successor". And sell my soul, if I still had it.

They already made MotB. I consider that effort as fine but the gameplay is still shit.

 

[ironyuri]

stop engaging with hhr, just post some gifs and move on you fucks.

 

[tuluse]

I'd prefer a combat system built from the ground up for RTwP than taking a D20 system designed for turn based and modifying it for RTwP. A big problem with even BG2 which did the combat much better than PS:T was that is no way to affect where the enemy goes. So it's really hard to make your tanks tank, and really hard to use AoE spells. PS:T had a fuck awful interface on top of this.

Also, the ability to switch between classes with the Nameless One didn't seem especially thought out. The game worked best if you picked the one you wanted as early as possible and stuck with it.

 

[Scruffy]

This thread made me realize that I’m a gigantic fag. Because personally, I wouldn’t care for a Torment successor that wasn’t set in the Planescape universe. Just being a “setting with a lot of intra-planar and extra-dimensional doors” won’t do. Knowing that I could move from Faerun to Athas is what made the setting so cool and better than any other.

 

[kaizoku]

Don't despair bro... maybe he can think of something even better.

 

[LeStryfe79]

MCA should kickstart a PnP game first(with Sawyer's help), then afterwards kickstart a PC game based on it.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It achieved what it wanted to achieve - they wanted pulpy characters from James Bond movies? Well, they are here. A good writing is like that, even if you didn't like it. Bad writing is when the author tries to depict something but falls flat on the face: e.g. in DA2, Hawk being heroic, noble and intelligent.

Following this logic it does not matter what you write, it only matters how you write.

Which is right I think, your story won't be better or worse based simply on what you chose to write about. You can make a wonderful, complex story out of some kids robbing people on the beach, and banal shit out of a universe-shattering battle bewteen the gods themselves.

 

[Misconnected]

I'm really not a fan of the superheroes playstyle embraced by systems like OGL. But I'll take OGL over any dev's own creation every single time despite my dislike, because devs have proven beyond even the most unreasonably optimistic doubt that they're entirely incapable of putting together a tactical RPG combat system that isn't as bad or worse than none at all.

However, one of the major reasons PST was such an outstanding game - at least in my opinion - was that the campaign couldn't have happened just anywhere. Torment wasn't just a cool and unusual story in a cool and unusual setting. The two were thoroughly connected. And a system designed specifically to reinforce that connection could take it to much greater levels of coolness.

So in this case: fuck OGL, let's have MCA's homebrew. And if it's got as shitty a combat system as is to be expected, just leave out the combat entirely. It's not like anyone sane would buy a spiritual successor to PST for the combat anyway.

Kickstart-wise, I love the idea of doing a setting sourcebook first. If the setting is as good as PlaneScape I'd want a sourcebook anyway, and if it isn't I wouldn't want to fund the video game.

 

[DwarvenFood]

I don't quite understand whether MCA is talking hypothetically, or he'd do it if given the chance (i.e. if he were actually paid by a publisher to write one entire year for the game he wants to do). Either way, it looks like Kickstarter is now very serious business even for an established developer like Obsidian, so whatever happens to Wasteland 2 and Obsidian's future project might make or break an "old-school" RPG renaissance.

But I would rob a bank for MCA's PST "spiritual successor". And sell my soul, if I still had it.

They already made MotB. I consider that effort as fine but the gameplay is still shit.

Recently an Obsidianite here said that MotB was never intended as an spiritual successor to PS:T, don't remember if it was Ziets or maybe Davis. Either was, I also like the idea of establishing a new setting first, maybe as PnP game, and going from there.