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CKII is released.

Angthoron

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Are there any mods that expand diplomacy and such? I feel rather hampered by the limited selection sometimes.

Hopefully in CK3 you will be able to make claims and promises and stuff, this game calls for WAY more diplomacy. Sure, it's hard to code an AI that would take advantage of that stuff, but goddammit.
 

RK47

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IGN - mentions CK2 in its AI article

Full copy pasta'ed
Whatever Happened to Video Game AI?

It used to be all-important, but has game AI stagnated over the last decade?
by Rick Lane
April 8, 2013

Gather round fellow gamers, young and old, and I'll tell you a tale of a golden age long past, when the creatures that roam our virtual landscapes stepped blinking into the sunlight for the first time, picked up a thigh bone and smashed stuff with it. 1998 was the year, and Half-Life the game. It brought us Marines who were seemingly capable of outflanking the player, and flushing them out with smartly thrown grenades. Even its roaches responded to light, movement and smell.

Half-Life was followed soon after by Thief, whose dark streets were populated by guards with various states of awareness, able to respond to sounds made by the player and even sounds made by other AI. Then in 1999 came Unreal Tournament, featuring AI that could snipe your face off from half a mile away. Halo in 2001 had smart, surprising AI that was so good it was a reason to buy the nascent Xbox. At that point, a future of human-like AI opponents that could adapt to the player's movements and actions didn't seem that far away.


But it never happened. From around the mid-2000s videogame AI nestled itself beneath a chest-high wall and has pretty much stayed there ever since. Even the best games of recent years have been criticised for their unimpressive AI. But is this sad ending to the story really true? Did AI programmers basically gave up at the turn of the millennium? Or have things simply evolved in more subtle ways less perceptible to the average gamer?

From the mid-2000s videogame AI nestled itself beneath a chest-high wall and has pretty much stayed there ever since.

To find out, I spoke to the AI programmers of two very different games about how artificial intelligence is programmed and implemented 15 years on from the Marines of Half-Life. Hugo Desmeules and Yanick Mimee are developers employed at Ubisoft Montreal, respectively responsible for the AI design and programming of Far Cry 3.

Mimee argues that my personal view of the AI in the late nineties is rose- tinted. “I remember the games we were making back then in 1999 when we were programming enemies with simple brain and patterns. The technology at that time did not allow us the freedom we have right now."

Far Cry 3 makes for an interesting case study for AI because it is open world, meaning its AI has much greater freedom of movement and action than in a linear game, and there are many more systems at work that must be dealt with and responded to. Desmeules gives me an example of what a turtle needs to think about in Far Cry 3. ”So now a turtle brain no longer consists of only going left and right and being crushed by a plumber, it needs to flee progressing fire, move away from an incoming vehicle, transition from ground to water navigable areas, walk, hide, swim, and care about predators like sharks.”


On the subject of predators, their presence marks a significant advance over the AI of Far Cry 2, which lacked predators because the developers were unable to stop them from eating all the herbivores. “We developed a spawning technique that allows us take advantage of the fact that, in real life, animals don’t stay put in a single place. You don’t expect an animal to be at the exact same spot if you move 1km away and come back. This, combined with the use of another system we called the encounter system that will dynamically spawn various AI in the game based on what’s currently there, has done the trick for us.”
Far Cry 2 lacked predators because the developers were unable to stop them from eating all the herbivores.
This is more general Left 4 Dead style AI directorship, rather than individual AI. What of the human opponents you face on Rook island? Again, Far Cry 2's AI was criticised for being ridiculously aggressive, so for the sequel the developers opted for a “Triple state” AI which is evident in many other stealth games. Here the AI can either be idle (unaware of the player's presence), suspicious (searching for the player's location) or aware (engaged in open combat). Frankly, this doesn't sound much different from the fifteen year old AI in Thief. According to Desmeules, however, Far Cry's human opponents also retain information of recent events. “The fact that they have been in alert or combat recently will leave memories inside their brain and their behaviours will change accordingly. An NPC back in idle after a combat or a search would be much more cautious back in idle state.”

The differences between the AI of Far Cry 2 and Far Cry 3 clearly demonstrate that AI programming is not static, and efforts are being made to push it forward. That said, I'm not entirely convinced that clever spawning techniques and a bit of memory retention mark great leaps forward in AI development. To locate more complex AI, it may be wise to look away from games about guns.


It's a common mistake to associate Artificial Intelligence in games entirely with FPS "bots". Even an ambitious FPS like Far Cry 3 only requires its AI to do so many things: things like hide, seek, shoot. There are other types of game that demand considerably more from their AI. One such example is Crusader Kings II, the medieval grand strategy game from Paradox Interactive.
Unlike an FPS bot, a strategy game AI needs to handle many, quite different areas of gameplay.

“Unlike an FPS bot, a strategy game AI needs to handle many, quite different areas of gameplay,” says Henrik Fåhraeus, project lead on CKII, “from the movement of armies and fleets to prioritising the use of limited resources like money, to deciding who its long term friends and enemies should be.”

What separates Crusader Kings from most other strategy games is it simulates the behaviours of hundreds of individual characters, from Emperors and Kings right down to courtiers and city mayors. Each of these characters has their own personality, created using a pool of personality “traits” gained and lost through genetics, education and decisions made during gameplay.

“The underlying assumption is that every character desires to protect what it already controls and to expand if possible, perhaps militarily, perhaps through marriage,” explains Fåhraeus “The personality traits modify these desires. For example, a character with the 'Ambitious' trait is more aggressive both towards external enemies and towards its liege lord, whereas a 'Craven' and 'Content' character is more likely to just sit tight.”

This means individual characters behave in a logical manner consistent with their personality (unless they have traits like “Lunatic” or “Arbitrary”, in which case their actions will be more random). Yet characters aren't given completely free reign, or the game would fall apart. There is a longer term component of CK II's AI which affects entire regions, giving states and countries historically logical goals such conquering specific lands and setting up certain trade routes.
It appears pockets of innovation are occurring within AI development that are specific to the game being created.
“These priorities remain fairly static and allow the many different aspects of the AI to work together in a consistent manner; declaring war over logical territories, actually trying to occupy these provinces, and allying with enemies of the target,” says Fåhraeus. This allows the character AI to busy itself with ambitions, plots and intrigues without completely upsetting the balance of the game.

Contrary to my original assertion, it appears pockets of innovation are occurring within AI development that are specific to the game being created. But what does the future hold? Could improved technology such as new consoles help towards more drastic improvements? Mimee believes so. “Better hardware would mean less compromise for us. For example, we would love to see hardware that allows for database-storing facts to help the AI make more complex decisions. This would require more memory space and more processing power.”

CKII's Fåhraeus, on the other hand, believes that the type of AI currently used in grand strategy games has already reached its zenith. “We are basically just limited by the programmer time and skill. To go further, to open up dramatic new vistas, will require radical breakthroughs in the fields of neural networks and quantum computing.”


Clearly, the extent to which hardware will help depends on the type of game developers are making. But there are tools which already exist that could radically change how AI works in games. One such tool, known as evolutionary computation, works by creating a pool of random algorithms which are then optimised through a virtual natural selection process. This enables the AI to effectively learn and adapt during the process of playing a game.
To go further will require radical breakthroughs in the fields of neural networks and quantum computing.
This technique is rarely used in games industry – the only well-known example of mainstream implementation is the creature AI featured in Black and White. Late last year, evolutionary computation was used by a team of PhD student programmers from Texas to pass the Turing Test in 2K's much coveted “BotPrize”. But it could be used anywhere from creating drivers in a racing game who adapt to the behaviour of their opponents over time, to rulers in a grand strategy game like CKII who actually learn as they become more experienced.

To do so, however, would require significant rethinking about how games are developed, and also how they are played. The tools may already exist, but until a developer comes along who is brave enough to use them, our virtual monkeys will find it hard to advance much further than picking up that thigh-bone.
 

RK47

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Are there any mods that expand diplomacy and such? I feel rather hampered by the limited selection sometimes.

Hopefully in CK3 you will be able to make claims and promises and stuff, this game calls for WAY more diplomacy. Sure, it's hard to code an AI that would take advantage of that stuff, but goddammit.

Agreed I want a guaranteed independence promise, so I can actually have a real backup instead of a 'promise' of an Alliance that is very vague.
Perhaps a loan agreement between same level of leaders that is heavily reliant on relations between two leaders (which makes diplomacy and backstabs quite enticing)
And perhaps a better negotiation when forcing a complete surrender etc.
 

Angthoron

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Are there any mods that expand diplomacy and such? I feel rather hampered by the limited selection sometimes.

Hopefully in CK3 you will be able to make claims and promises and stuff, this game calls for WAY more diplomacy. Sure, it's hard to code an AI that would take advantage of that stuff, but goddammit.

Agreed I want a guaranteed independence promise, so I can actually have a real backup instead of a 'promise' of an Alliance that is very vague.
Perhaps a loan agreement between same level of leaders that is heavily reliant on relations between two leaders (which makes diplomacy and backstabs quite enticing)
And perhaps a better negotiation when forcing a complete surrender etc.
Yeah, exactly, things like that. I doubt it requires quantum computing and neurological breakthroughs :lol:

Also, means to coerce rulers/whatever to do something you want, granted, not in any easy ways, but to have more levers than assassinate/bribe/ignore in cases when an NPC is just completely disinterested, and you've no influence over it. That's what diplomacy should be for, coercing parties to do your bidding.
 

Kem0sabe

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Are there any mods that expand diplomacy and such? I feel rather hampered by the limited selection sometimes.

Hopefully in CK3 you will be able to make claims and promises and stuff, this game calls for WAY more diplomacy. Sure, it's hard to code an AI that would take advantage of that stuff, but goddammit.

Yep, for CK3 Paradox should aim for more diplomacy and character interaction, also more events between you and your subjects/liege.
 

Trash

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I want the return of the system that let me send my kids away to foreign rulers to cement relationships, hostages or even as a bargaining chip. It was there in CKI and worked splendidly, came back in Sengoku and worked well and was fully operating in the CKII beta. I'm still stumped on why they patched it out.
 

Angthoron

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More bargaining chips in general would be welcome, whether "positive bargaining" or "negative" one, aka threatening.
 

RK47

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I'm tempted to start a new game, only to take complete control of everything myself. No more asshole vassals - no vassals at all. All belongs to me. Take that feudalism. I would get hit with the demesne size penalty, but I would have no vassals to complain. The income penalty would hurt, and I could field much less troops, but the main reason I don't think I'm going with this is that this game is a feudalism simulator. The warfare and conquest are secondary to diplomacy and intrigue and keeping your vassals in check while looking to screw over you liege lord. Remove that, and well, there's not much left.

For a kingdom simulator, the troubles you encounter is pretty much spot on with what happened as a liege rise up and manage larger and larger realms. The ruler's influence is greatly diminished and he will be let down by many of his incapable vassals. You can plan the best succession plan ever, but that doesn't guarantee the rest of the realm will work out just fine. There will always be the bad apples, the ones that are simply rotten, crawling with worm inside. It's up to you to trim your garden. But a full-on, super empire with well governed, content vassal is but a dream.

If you don't believe me, try starting small like I did as a count, rising to a duke, king of Ireland and eventually Empire of Britannia. You'd feel it.

It was much simpler and easier when it's small, and it turned into hell as your realm and responsibility gets bigger.
Hell, you used to celebrate 200 gold by year's end, but now 500 doesn't seem much. Hell, 10,000 soldiers used to be a doomstack, now if it's not 30,000 it's not a threat to you.
From 2 vassals to 20 to over 200 in an Empire game. You can see this.

Every 2-3 years, a faction would rise, challenging my authority, over 200 plots in the realm between counts and dukes...
There's just so much an Emperor have to do, but you know what? This isn't a problem, this is what the game is about.

You forgot, that when you've gained power, it's even harder to maintain it. There's a reason why the best managed kingdoms tend to be smaller and compact, consisting of just 3-4 duchies.
Put yourself in your vassal's shoes. Suppose you're a Duke, ruling over 5 counties in Mali and your Emperor reigns in Jerusalem, fighting a Crusade against Timurid horde for survival, committing every levy at his disposal against the 300,000 horde.

Isn't this the best chance to break away? Or are you going to be a loyal vassal, taking all your vassal's levy and your own, sail across the seas, just to drop 10,000 more into his 200k retinue to save the Empire from crumbling?

"We're all in this together," you tell your vassals.

You know it isn't true when the situation is reversed.
Welcome to CK2.
 

Trash

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More bargaining chips in general would be welcome, whether "positive bargaining" or "negative" one, aka threatening.

I do believe that in Sengoku you could swap children with rival clan lords and (I think) even demand hostages in peace negotiations. That they nerfed this in CKII really was one of the first things I noticed when getting my hands on the release version. Bummer.

CKII also really needed something done about the ease with which you could increase crown laws. Early medieval kingdoms usually were pretty powerless with the real power lying with local nobles. CKII starts out with that but as a medium sized kingdom alone it is way too easy to just centralise the fuck out of it. In reality the struggle to cement power in the hands of a king and take it away from the dukes took centuries. The cost and vassal relationship penalty should be way bigger for any increase to make it more historical and more interesting.

Nobles now actively plotting to lower crown laws did do improve this part of the game though.

EDIT: Anyone played the GoT mod for any length of time? Any good? Any good new gameplay options?
 

Kem0sabe

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For a kingdom simulator, the troubles you encounter is pretty much spot on with what happened as a liege rise up and manage larger and larger realms. The ruler's influence is greatly diminished and he will be let down by many of his incapable vassals. You can plan the best succession plan ever, but that doesn't guarantee the rest of the realm will work out just fine. There will always be the bad apples, the ones that are simply rotten, crawling with worm inside. It's up to you to trim your garden. But a full-on, super empire with well governed, content vassal is but a dream.
If you don't believe me, try starting small like I did as a count, rising to a duke, king of Ireland and eventually Empire of Britannia. You'd feel it.

It was much simpler and easier when it's small, and it turned into hell as your realm and responsibility gets bigger.
Hell, you used to celebrate 200 gold by year's end, but now 500 doesn't seem much. Hell, 10,000 soldiers used to be a doomstack, now if it's not 30,000 it's not a threat to you.
From 2 vassals to 20 to over 200 in an Empire game. You can see this.

Every 2-3 years, a faction would rise, challenging my authority, over 200 plots in the realm between counts and dukes...
There's just so much an Emperor have to do, but you know what? This isn't a problem, this is what the game is about.

You forgot, that when you've gained power, it's even harder to maintain it. There's a reason why the best managed kingdoms tend to be smaller and compact, consisting of just 3-4 duchies.
Put yourself in your vassal's shoes. Suppose you're a Duke, ruling over 5 counties in Mali and your Emperor reigns in Jerusalem, fighting a Crusade against Timurid horde for survival, committing every levy at his disposal against the 300,000 horde.

Isn't this the best chance to break away? Or are you going to be a loyal vassal, taking all your vassal's levy and your own, sail across the seas, just to drop 10,000 more into his 200k retinue to save the Empire from crumbling?

"We're all in this together," you tell your vassals.

You know it isn't true when the situation is reversed.
Welcome to CK2.

I started playing CK2 thinking it was a grand strategy game, but i realized it's more than strategy or a kingdom simulator as you put it, i started to play the game as i would an RPG, concentrating on my character's evolution instead of my kingdom, even if the realm is burning around me, i'm more worried about my lineage than about how many counties i will loose.
 

Spectacle

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I'm tempted to start a new game, only to take complete control of everything myself. No more asshole vassals - no vassals at all. All belongs to me. Take that feudalism. I would get hit with the demesne size penalty, but I would have no vassals to complain. The income penalty would hurt, and I could field much less troops, but the main reason I don't think I'm going with this is that this game is a feudalism simulator. The warfare and conquest are secondary to diplomacy and intrigue and keeping your vassals in check while looking to screw over you liege lord. Remove that, and well, there's not much left.

I tried doing that with William of Normandy, conquered England and kept it all for myself. It turned out to be unplayable due to the huge spam of negative events triggered by going so far over the demesne limit, every couple of days I had to click away some notification about bandits or whatever.
 

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So, now I'm tempted to give GoT a try to see what's what and it crashes while loading. Never had this before with any mod. Sigh.

EDIT: Got it to run. Looks fun, though playing as a wildling is a waste of time atm. No raiding beyond the wall? Fuck it then. Do like the duelling mechanic. Especially during a battle. Running off the enemy leader broke a stack that was up to that point winning. Dig that.
 
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For a kingdom simulator, the troubles you encounter is pretty much spot on with what happened as a liege rise up and manage larger and larger realms. The ruler's influence is greatly diminished and he will be let down by many of his incapable vassals. You can plan the best succession plan ever, but that doesn't guarantee the rest of the realm will work out just fine. There will always be the bad apples, the ones that are simply rotten, crawling with worm inside. It's up to you to trim your garden. But a full-on, super empire with well governed, content vassal is but a dream.

If you don't believe me, try starting small like I did as a count, rising to a duke, king of Ireland and eventually Empire of Britannia. You'd feel it.
Oh, I believe you. After all, that is more or less just how my game went (though I gave up sooner). And I do not say this game is not a very good feudal kingdom simulator - far from it. I'm just saying that when it gets to that point the game is just no longer fun for me. What I look for in strategy games first and foremost is one thing - control. Control over as many things as possible. And once you get big enough in this game you simply must relinquish that control to your vassals (who then proceed to turn much of your efforts so far into waste). It may be a realistic simulation of feudalism, but this is just not a game for me.
 

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And then I decide to read a GoT lp on the Paradox forum and see a promising one die out on the first page because a mod warns the OP for including 'interactive' elements without permission. IE a post with OP asking what to do with prisoners. WTF is wrong with these people?

Going to way for a bit. GoT is fun but wildlings not being able to raid and pillage beyond the wall is a travesty. Hopefully The Old Gods dlc will make the modders expand on that.
 

GarfunkeL

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Revised Rules on Interactive AARs (updated December 2012)

The rules regarding interactive AARs have tended to be developed to deal with specific problems and on an ad-hoc basis. The version set out below is intended to produce more clarity both about what is an interactive AAR and what sort of interactive AARs are most likely to be approved. In effect, all you need to take account of is captured in three simple rules.
  1. If you think an AAR maybe interactive then you should check with any of the moderators first. This is fundamental, any AAR we find when wandering around the forums that we believe to be interactive will be locked, and it is much less likely that you will be given permission to then carry on. So rule #1 is very simple - if in doubt ask before starting.
  2. If your AAR is what can be termed 'mildly interactive' then, if you ask first, odds on permission will be granted. 'Milldly Interactive' includes votes on very specific options or 'tell me what to play for my AAR' votes. All such votes must be against a short list of clear options, with a very early end date. If this is your intent, and you ask first, most likely an AAR of this type will be given permission;
  3. If your AAR is fully interactive, you will not be given permission unless you have an existing track record of successfully running and completing conventional AARs on this forum. 'Fully Interactive' is anything that is not covered in the rule above but includes commentators role playing characters, commentators advising the player (in character) or an AAR where the voting is carried out on a regular basis. If you start one of these, without permission, then it will be locked and you will not receive permission to carry on or start a new one. So if you have any doubts, ask.

So the rules are: ask first, if its complex then make sure you already have experience in running AARs, if it involves some interaction, then it is likely that permission will be granted.

So why do we make this distinction? Because fully interactive AARs are a lot of work for both the thread owner and the moderators. We need to be sure you will be able to sustain the effort and will help us in managing the thread. Unfortunately, past experience indicates that if such a thread goes wrong, it can go very wrong very quickly. Equally if this happens we will hold both the thread owner and any individual posters equally liable.

If you have permission to run an interactive AAR, you should add a note to this effect in the first post, indicating which member of the moderating team agreed.​
 

GarfunkeL

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Holy fuck, I hadn't realized that Pdox forum moderators went full derp. So they restrict posters from running interactive AARs because they are a lot of work and might crash&burn, thus... hurting people's feelings or something? Amazingly ridiculous.
 

Trash

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It's fucking retarded but does fit Paradox's forum modus operandi. Which is also fucking retarded. They simply try to make a rule for everything instead of using common sense and strictly want to controll everything that happens on the forum. Pretty soon you'll have to ask for moderator permission before commenting. Oh wait, you pretty much already have to. I seriously got three different mods all writing out warnings and infractions on my ass when I responded to a guy and only got insults back. Didn't do shit, simply told him he was wrong and got hit from all sides by the mods for not shutting up. That forum never was much apart from a convenient source of patches, news and mods but this retardation is really getting on my nerves.
 

mondblut

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That's actually a splendid idea. There is a good pile of unfinished LPs on Der Kodex, whose authors are ought to be forced to continue under a threat of permaban. Like that FM2012 LP, the fucker made a dozen of us work at their respective players, then ran away after one match - a friendly vs reserves to boot. Ban him. >:-[
 

IDtenT

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Divinity: Original Sin
That's actually a splendid idea. There is a good pile of unfinished LPs on Der Kodex, whose authors are ought to be forced to continue under a threat of permaban. Like that FM2012 LP, the fucker made a dozen of us work at their respective players, then ran away after one match - a friendly vs reserves to boot. Ban him. >:-[
That actually sounds like a good thing to LP. Let's get RK47 on it.
 

mondblut

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They simply try to make a rule for everything instead of using common sense and strictly want to controll everything that happens on the forum. Going this far with the derp however...

I guess they don't like their own games very much then :smug:

Imagine, a PDX mod logging on his forum, and...


"The user Whatshisname has hijacked your modding priveleges at subforum X!"

a) That's preposterious! (-10 income)
b) He might do his job better than me... (+10 karma)

15 seconds later:

Half your posts were randomly destroyed by a server crash! (Yep, a 15th crash in a week)
a) My precious!!! (-half posts)

That would go a long way fixing their design visions ;)
 

rogozhin

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Take my vassals for instance. I have been taking all counties by fabricating claims, so that I can remove the previous occupants from the premisses without any complaints and install new ones, that I personally created in my court. And I created them good - I've been importing some quality breeding stock, while removing the failures by marrying them away. They were superior both genetically and mentally - most of them had no character flaws at all, and they all loved me. So I give them some counties, and now it's 20 years later. Their children and heirs are just as useless as any other in the game. There are ambitious and jealous assholes everywhere. Half of them hate me for no other reason then because they are ambitious and jealous assholes. Those that are not just working against me are often just useless. For fuck sake, both of the parents were genius gray eminence with no bad traits whatsoever, how is it possible their children are that bad? It just seems so arbitrary it makes me wonder why the fuck did I bother with all that.
Did you control the education of your vassals' heirs by choosing either yourself or someone with desirable traits as their guardian? That should result in friendly, talented future vassals most of the time. It requires quite a bit of micromanagement since the game doesn't notify you when they turn six and a firstborn son may die before he inherits, but if you want to control everything, that should be the first thing you keep an eye on. It won't completely prevent some ambitious fucker becoming your most powerful duke, but after all that's what makes the game interesting.
 

Kayerts

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As I said, I think this is just not a game for me. Fun to watch LPs though. Like that awesome pagan LP by Kayerts - are we ever going see that finished? Or maybe started again with that new DLC?


Yeah, sorry about letting that one trail off; my schedule got unpredictably weird and then stayed that way. Anyway, I still have the save, a compatible install, screenshots, notes, a few thousand words of the next chapter written, etc., so I probably should get around to at least finishing the next update. No promises, but feel free to yell at me on here if I don't.
 
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Did you control the education of your vassals' heirs by choosing either yourself or someone with desirable traits as their guardian? That should result in friendly, talented future vassals most of the time. It requires quite a bit of micromanagement since the game doesn't notify you when they turn six and a firstborn son may die before he inherits, but if you want to control everything, that should be the first thing you keep an eye on. It won't completely prevent some ambitious fucker becoming your most powerful duke, but after all that's what makes the game interesting.
Huh. Yeah, I didn't remember to choose the guardians for the heirs once the parents were out of my court. I just assumed that since the parents would be the guardians for their children, the children would be as flaw free as the they were. Man, was I wrong.
 

RK47

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That's actually a splendid idea. There is a good pile of unfinished LPs on Der Kodex, whose authors are ought to be forced to continue under a threat of permaban. Like that FM2012 LP, the fucker made a dozen of us work at their respective players, then ran away after one match - a friendly vs reserves to boot. Ban him. >:-[
That actually sounds like a good thing to LP. Let's get RK47 on it.

Hi, my name is RK47. Please meet my football team.
 

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