Collaborate ?

[d1nolore]

I’m curious, why don’t people here collaborate. There’s a bunch of cool little projects going on here, there’s even several that have made it to Steam which is cool. But there have been plenty of dead projects, projects in limbo, and others that won’t get released for various reasons.

It’s basic math; if one developer can put in x amount of hours per week then with one or 2 other developers working on the same project you could potentially get so much more done. How many solo devs turned into notable success stories; compared to teams of 3+, So many great studios started with just a few people. Obviously even for a solo developer the dream of creating great games would at some point mean you would have a team.

We know that everyone has their own vision and ideas which can be hard to collaborate on if others aren’t on the same page but surely there are some likeminded people here. I mean you can start by agreeing on a rule set and basic mechanics, most projects don’t even finish implementing this stage really, they die out.

Some of these smaller projects could be completed if everyone wasn’t shouldering the whole project themselves. Some of these projects it’s painful to see how much work people are expecting to do by themselves. Even some of you who have put out some cool games, maybe you could take on a larger project if you collaborate.

I’m curious to see people’s thoughts on this, maybe there are some joint projects already?

 

[Bester]

I have a few specific reasons.

Why I don't collaborate with random people: I have a track record of finishing and releasing games. And even I sometimes start projects and drop them halfway.
Talk about trusting other people not to drop projects who've never released anything and don't realize how much dedication and willpower it takes to finish something you took on some years ago.

Another point against collaboration is me: I like to work for a few months, and then relax for a few months. Imagine what it would do to other people's morale seeing me not doing shit for months? They'd probably drop the ball themselves or replace me.

And then another point is the timing: I have a project I've been working on for over a year, but I'm not at the stage where I've finished my part. Once I have, then I can invite other people. Why invite them prematurely? Only to come under stress that now I can't drop the project, cause I have all these people I'd let down?

That being said, I do plan to collaborate. But it has to be done right, at the right time, and with the right people. It's not just "hey randos lets do this X game, who wants to join?" That just wouldn't work.

 

[bionicman]

I've collaborated with people in the past (though none from codex). All the projects I've worked in a team were game jams, and every time it wasn't a pleasant experience (at least for me). I admit there's an advantage to working in a team in certain combinations e.g. artist + programmer, or designer + programmer... whenever there are complementary skills. It gets more complicated when there are skills that clash, especially programming and design.

I would love to collaborate with a codexer on a game jam or similar small project, but with commercial ones there's a problem of contracts and legal complications of working with a person from another country.

 

[Bester]

but with commercial ones there's a problem of contracts and legal complications of working with a person from another country.

What complications?

The contracts are all valid either way. And if someone infringes on the contract, suing is not easy no matter what country you're in. If it came to that, you've already made huge mistakes.

 

[Moaning_Clock]

I’m curious, why don’t people here collaborate.

I hate working in teams. It did never go well.

It’s basic math; if one developer can put in x amount of hours per week then with one or 2 other developers working on the same project you could potentially get so much more done.

That's unfortunately not true since the math is a bit more complex. There's a great article about that from the maker of Democracy https://www.positech.co.uk/cliffsbl...on-the-secret-weapon-of-one-person-companies/

In my view you can get at the very best a productivity + of 90%. 10% is wasted due to communication. But at worst the person doesn't respond, is always delayed and outright lazy and you get a productivity minus of 25% or more if you care. I worked in several teams, (some more productive, some less so) but after all these experiences I started working alone and I'm absurdly fast in comparison to earlier even with the overhead of learning all the stuff. There were some incidents were I liked to work in a team but it always was on a short timeframe.

How many solo devs turned into notable success stories; compared to teams of 3+, So many great studios started with just a few people. Obviously even for a solo developer the dream of creating great games would at some point mean you would have a team.

Not necessarily. There are two long-standing indies (one is well off - Jeff Vogel, the other outright rich - Cliffski) who never formed proper teams and were cautious of working with others (aside from freelancing). Cliffski started collaborating but it still doesn't seem as proper teams. Jonathan Blow for example (Braid, The Witness) has a team but tends to work in coffeeshops because he gets distracted when he's in the office.
I don't want to say that teams can't work - they obviously can - but it isn't a clear path to teams.

Some of these smaller projects could be completed if everyone wasn’t shouldering the whole project themselves.

If a project is small and doesn't get finished it's just lazyness or outright abandoning.

 

[bionicman]

What complications?

I guess there aren't any legal complications really. I just find the whole business, accounting, and legal side of things complicated in general (even when working solo).

 

[RPK]

go read the last dozen pages or so of the Realms Beyond thread. that will tell you real quickly. In a nutshell what happened there - they have two or three core people involved, got a bit of funding, hired some people here and there to do some work, but all along it's just been a couple of people. Now one of them doesn't want to do it anymore, took his ball and went home and the odds of the project ever getting done are slim to none and slim has one foot out the door.

The reason I'm working solo is similar to what's stated above by others. Varying commitment levels, the overhead of communication, who owns things when one person buys premade assets (and even more so when someone commissions something original) and complete creative control.

 

[slowdive]

Our core group has been small, but we have been able to keep moving forward because we have no due dates, not looking to make any money (free and open source), and work as we have time/motivation. Youngneil1 and myself have worked on the bulk of the code and we code in spurts with some time off every now and then to play other games. Zach, Dorateen, and Pongo have steadily worked on modules, tested builds, and provide the creative direction. I think the key for us has been no money, no due dates, and we all understand that and prefer it that way. Players probably don't like that as much, but it works for us

 

[d1r]

Just give it up already, OP. No one will, and ever wants to work with that nutjob who created that abomination that is Redaxium.

 

[d1nolore]

Just give it up already, OP. No one will, and ever wants to work with that nutjob who created that abomination that is Redaxium.

It’s my favourite project, I am highly optimistic.

 

[d1nolore]

I think a lot of reasoning for working solo expressed is fair, but I also think there would be a huge upside if there right people come together.

I think peoples lack of ability in managing expectations and relationships within a small team is a large factor. From what I have seen over the years with various different projects it’s always beneficial to have a key person overseeing the project, while the others more or less help and contribute to varying degrees. Even if people disappear or take a break it’s all a matter of managing expectations and workflow. For example if one part of the project is assigned to someone who does not complete it that simply gets reassigned in the workflow. It’s not as complicated as it might appear, but you need to also manage your own expectations.

I think the dream for programmers is finding someone to do the art for their project, this is very rare though as art assets are easier to assign value to. But you could also have a similar benefit with OO programming. Imagine having someone off working on combat AI while you are putting the rest together, even if they never finish it’s something that was later in the workflow anyway. Even seemingly simple things like dialogue or level design can take a chunk of time.

 

[Catacombs]

Our core group has been small, but we have been able to keep moving forward because we have no due dates, not looking to make any money (free and open source), and work as we have time/motivation. Youngneil1 and myself have worked on the bulk of the code and we code in spurts with some time off every now and then to play other games. Zach, Dorateen, and Pongo have steadily worked on modules, tested builds, and provide the creative direction. I think the key for us has been no money, no due dates, and we all understand that and prefer it that way. Players probably don't like that as much, but it works for us

Do you have a link to the codebase?

 

[slowdive]

Do you have a link to the codebase?

https://github.com/IceBlinkEngine

 

[Haba]

A common shared engine is probably the best kind of collaboration one can wish for.

 

[Krice]

In open source (non-paid) projects the problem is that there is usually one clever dude running the project, but it's almost impossible to find people who are at the same level of skills. What tends to happen is when you try to get help it's always some mouth breathers who aren't bad people I guess, but they just don't have it. But even if you have two or more clever dudes it can also be difficult, because the roles are not well defined. It's like trying to keep a rock band together.

 

[d1nolore]

In open source (non-paid) projects the problem is that there is usually one clever dude running the project, but it's almost impossible to find people who are at the same level of skills. What tends to happen is when you try to get help it's always some mouth breathers who aren't bad people I guess, but they just don't have it. But even if you have two or more clever dudes it can also be difficult, because the roles are not well defined. It's like trying to keep a rock band together.

This is true, but, these issues can be managed. Obviously it works and that’s why we have so many great games out there as a studio or team will produce much more than a solo dev. Obviously that’s a different scale and level than we are talking about here.

This is where networking and management skills can come in. There are plenty of capable devs here, some with completed projects, and games on Steam, so you can see what they are capable of. Why not talk to each other and see if you could fit together. I know that a couple already do, but programmers do tend to put the blinders on and focus on their projects. It would be cool to see if there could be some collaboration come from the Codex.

 

[50726f73706572]

The biggest problems that exists when being a one person dev team:
-Development is slow on most fronts. Or rather it can never go fast on more than one at a time.
-No time to hype or advertise.
-Less time to learn as you go.
-No time to go back and do things "right".
-When your role is everything it's easy to become frustrated with yourself and the project.

As to why I won't collaborate:
-No money to pay for it.
-Professionalism, is what you really need from a team. ( is even harder to buy/find.)
If I have to manage people to ensure my game comes out right, what's the point of making a game myself?
-My project is about my project. Total creative control with the ability to affirm design + execution.
-The best person I could collaborate with is myself.
-Collaborations are best reserved for people who've proven themselves.
-I feel a lot better failing by myself than with a group of others.

Better question is what would make me want to collaborate?
This is an issue of combinations of many factors.

-Team must be professional.
-Game must be new IP with equalownership.
-Everyone must be equally broke, or equally contribute money to the game's development.
-There's nothing else anyone would ever rather do than game-dev.
Game-dev must have always been your plan-A.
-Whole team must be willing to die for the game.
-I don't have to bring the snack-trays.

I could go on and on. Fact is it's very implausible.
People also add needless complexity to an already ultra-complex task of making a game.


RpgCodex itself is a dangerous place to find stable individuals.

 

[ProphetSword]

I've tried working with others twice.

First time, the project was being managed (and I'm being generous with that term) by a person who flip-flopped on ideas constantly and couldn't stick to anything once decisions were made. More than once, I had completed a working piece of code only to be told that we wouldn't need it; because he had decided to pursue a different course of action. In addition, I mentioned I had skills beyond programming (digital art creation, map-making, writing, quest design, etc), but was told by the same person that I was to stick to my assigned role and code only. I'm surprised I lasted as long as I did.

My second experience was with some great people here on the Codex. Only problem with that was that everyone wanted to do something different and we were all kind of going in different directions in regards to what we wanted the end product to look like. One person tried to do all the work himself, which is admirable, but in the meantime I was kind of left twiddling my thumbs when I really wanted to assist. Eventually it all just sort of slowly vaporized into nothingness. Still respect all those guys, though, and I thought we really had something for a while.

Obviously, one experience was more positive than the others, but the end result was the same.

When I work on my own project, I get things done. I don't have to wait for other people, I just pursue things and make them happen. While I'd love to find a couple of like-minded individuals to join me (especially people who are good with art), I have yet to find people who are willing to do so. I imagine other developers have had similar experiences (I'd love to hear about them, actually, if only so I know I'm not alone).

 

[Moaning_Clock]

-No time to hype or advertise.

It's possible to do it while developing the game alone. It's the same with everything else (graphics, code, etc.), the only difference is that people tend to cut corners early at marketing but that's just a preference and not a rule.

 

[Dorateen]

I was approached a few years ago by codexer Islet who generously provided five tracks for Hearkenwold.

https://soundcloud.com/isletsound/hearkenwold-castle

To this day, I am still grateful for this music used as part of the IceBlink module. I think this is a good example of how a solo builder, whether working on a hobby project or something more professional, can collaborate with a talented individual on one specific aspect of that might be lacking, in order to enhance the larger design.

 

[d1nolore]

I was approached a few years ago by codexer Islet who generously provided five tracks for Hearkenwold.

https://soundcloud.com/isletsound/hearkenwold-castle

To this day, I am still grateful for this music used as part of the IceBlink module. I think this is a good example of how a solo builder, whether working on a hobby project or something more professional, can collaborate with a talented individual on one specific aspect of that might be lacking, in order to enhance the larger design.

That is a great example. Collaboration doesn’t need to be all encompassing it can be things like; music, art, dialogue, marketing, area or quest design etc.

 

[Krice]

This is true, but, these issues can be managed. Obviously it works and that’s why we have so many great games out there as a studio or team

Well of course it works in a company where the roles are defined. The project usually has one project leader etc. and everyone knows what they are supposed to do. However this isn't so simple in open source context. If you want to make it work everyone should take their role and stay in the project while not getting paid. Even then some teams that run open source projects are weird. For example some of them are extremely hostile to suggestions that would make the program/game better, they become strangely protective of their project. I guess it's just the basic stuff how we humans work, because most of us have ego problems and other issues with mental health. The only possible way to make teams work is money and strict roles, in other words commercial game development in a company.

 

[CancerUnlimited]

Other people are shit. Mostly that.