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Colony Ship factions & you

Discussion in 'Iron Tower Studio' started by Binky, Jul 3, 2019.

  1. Binky Savant

    Binky
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    Haven't been able to find any info thus far. What'll be the pros and cons of allying or pissing off a faction on the ship?

    • Say you piss of the Church of the Elect. Are they going to burst through your shack door yelling, "Repent, sinner!" or "God always has an appointment!" An ambush like in AoD? Dedicated groups hunting you down?
    • Or say you befriend the Church. Do they let you waltz through otherwise off limits areas? Do they back you up in a fight or two? Training & tech?
    • What if you piss off ALL of them? Constantly fending off attacks?
     
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  2. thesecret1 Prophet

    thesecret1
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    Well, for starters, if you go against the Church, your character won't go to heaven.
     
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  3. Jimmious Arcane Patron

    Jimmious
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    So stay still and enjoy
     
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  4. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    From one of the updates;

    Before we talk about the CSG’s main quest design, let’s talk about the AoD’s main quest to illustrate some points without spoiling anything.

    The main quest started vague – "go I know not where, bring back I know not what", and then the faction quests took over as the meat of the game. Essentially, the game wasn’t about finding the temple but instead working for the factions and slowly uncovering what happened in the past. By the time you’ve visited all 3 cities and learned what you can about the factions, the war, and the gods, you know where the temple is and you're ready to make your choice. That fairly important choice affects the ending slides, but not gameplay because the game is almost over at this point.

    Naturally, we want to do better. So in the CSG we’ll get rid of the vagueness, move the main quest to the center stage, push the factions’ quests back, and allow you to make key choices earlier and thus enjoy the consequences earlier.

    It will start simple – while scavenging you stumble upon something clearly valuable, a long-forgotten device that wasn’t meant to be used until the ship landed (but can be used in-flight). Not being an expert on such things, you need to know exactly what this thing is to figure out what one of the factions will pay for it, which is a good way to introduce you to the three main factions in Act 1, whereas in AoD the Noble Houses were introduced one Act at a time for storytelling reasons (escalating events: acting on his own, Carrinas seizes or attempts to seize power in Teron; misreading the situation, Gaelius decides to strengthen his domain against the Imperial Guards and makes a deal with the Ordu; thinking that Gaelius is about to start a war, Meru throws caution to the wind and accelerates his plans, thus triggering the very war he feared.

    Once you know what that device is (at about 30% of the game), you’ll offer it to the faction of your choice, at which point your relationship with the other factions will go down, introducing an aspect we didn’t really touch in AoD – factions acting against you, attacking your base of operations, and turning locations under their influence against you, which will boost replayability.

    At about 70% of the game, you might realize (via learning more about the ship if you’re smart enough) that what you’re doing might not necessary be what’s best for the ship (or you personally) and get an option to do things in a very different, "fuck all factions" way. The remaining 30% of the game will be dedicated to each path within this fork, presenting different challenges and choices. So far, that’s 3 'working for a faction' paths, 3 'fuck 'em' paths, and 7 different endings without counting permutations.

    This way you’ll get to play through your key decisions, instead of being told about what happened next in the slides. Obviously, the slides will still be there but gameplay-to-slides ratio will be different.
    In other words, you start working for a faction of your choice as part of the main quest, which gradually piss off other factions. At first they will refuse entry (no access to NPCs which will affect some quests), then send bounty hunters after you, then attack your base. Your allies will help you defending the base, so going against all factions will be an extreme choice with extreme consequences.
     
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  5. Binky Savant

    Binky
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    In other words, tough fights ahead. Beautiful. Absolutely fucking beautiful. Thank you for the info, kind sir.
     
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  6. razvedchiki Liturgist

    razvedchiki
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    on the back of a T34.
    i will befriend the communist faction and strive to bring equality to all colonists,spacing the counterevolutionary elements in the procerss.
     
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  7. Joni Odin von Hassenstein Arcane Patron

    Joni Odin von Hassenstein
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    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Will it be possible to be friends with one faction but not automatically having to fight all the others? So, if I decide to ally with faction a), can I still maintain a somewhat neutral relationship with faction b) and only really fight faction c)?
     
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  8. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    The main quest affects all three factions, so working for faction A means acting against the long term interests of faction B and C by default. The relationship will worsen gradually (i.e. the other factions won't become hostile the moment you join a faction) and you'll be given a chance to change sides before reaching the point of no return.
     
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  9. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    One thing that always surprised me about RPGs is how unwilling RPG devs have been to take lessons about factions from the early Gothic games. While Fallout 1/2/New Vegas have done well with faction C&C, the factions in those games never felt like true factions the same way that factions in Gothic 1 and 2 did. Is Colony Ship going to change that? Here are some things in particular that Gothics nailed, that would be great to see in other games:

    1. Faction clothes: When everyone in a faction (including the player) wears the same type of clothes/gear (with different ranks of course), it really gives that faction a sense of cohesiveness and camaraderie. New Vegas had this a bit, with NCR and Legion armors, but the player was not incentivized to wear them the same way as in Gothics.

    2. Faction base: there was something really special about running into the Old Camp to escape the dangerous world of Gothic 1. Its walls, gates and guards felt like a safe heaven. If you think about it, the main reason anyone would belong to a faction in the first place, in dangerous RPG worlds, would be for that safe base, and yet most RPGs don't have anything like this.

    In addition to this, in a game heavy with C&C, it would be great if there were in-depth faction ranks, with consequences to them. You begin as a faction neutral, but slowly rise up in rank: e.g. Newcomer > Member > Productive Member > Beloved Member > Authority Figure > Pillar > etc, as you perform faction missions successfully and/or make choices that benefit that faction. The world would react to this rank. For instance, the higher the rank, the more likely the other faction members would be to agree with you, or do as asked, and at higher levels, entirely new options would become available.
     
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  10. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Well, the clothes thing (kinda) made sense in that prison/fantasy setting where there were no stores or supply from the outside and each faction made its own armor. You couldn't loot armor iirc, which ensured that the only armor you could wear was your faction's armor, which was a powerful incentive to act the part. Overall, it was a very minimalist and restrictive design, and to PB's credit, they made it work very well, but it's not something that can be easily replicated despite the simplicity of such design.
     
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  11. vota DC Arbiter

    vota DC
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    Sounds interesting. But what is the difference between been hostile to every faction or do the solo path after you reach 70%? I mean in term of story, I guess gameplay wise will be more difficult being a lone wolf from the beginning to the end. There are 3 ending for solo but they count what you will do as solo or it counts what you did before going alone?
     
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  12. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    I think it makes sense in a lot of settings. Factions being a lot wealthier than individuals (or they should be anyway), they should be able to provide much better equipment to their members than should be scavengable. If you think in historical terms for example, typically a Roman soldier would be much better equipped than some mercenary scavenging pieces of armor here and there. And it's a matter of status, tying your character's appearance to the rest of the game. Whereas most armor is just aesthetic, faction armor would connect you to the rest of the world, and have the game respond to that. Anyways, I get it that it's not for every game, and it's a lot of extra work to implement, but I think the payoff can be quite good.
     
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  13. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    Going solo means acting against the interests of the factions directly or indirectly so all three main factions will be hostile to you.

    What you do as solo.

    Edit:

    Not if that merc kills an officer or makes enough people looting and pillaging (everyone's favorite pastime in RPGs) to buy expensive armor. In Gothic this dilemma had a simple solution: can neither loot armor nor buy the next rank's armor or 'third party' armor. This setup fits Gothic's unique atmosphere like a glove but won't work for most RPGs.
     
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  14. Binky Savant

    Binky
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    If I remember correctly, you said the player will be able to fight, sneak, or talk through the game. Reading all this, it would appear that no matter what you do, you'll be pissing off at least two of the factions - and they'll be gunning for you. How would a talker playthrough look like? You weasel your way out of trouble every time?
     
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  15. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    I think we all agree that without people wanting you dead a talker playthrough would be pretty boring.
     
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  16. vota DC Arbiter

    vota DC
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    A talker have henchmen too, don't remember if talking skill means more followers like charisma in Fallout 2 but a talker will be less punishing in combat this time since your talker will do 100% combat in Aod and will surely die while the talker here is just one member of the party.
     
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  17. Daedalos Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Daedalos
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    Being able to talk your way out of every situation without ever making enemies or angering people in the process is very shit and unrealistic manner to portray in an RPG imo.

    Some people will always find a way to hate you, no matter how silvertongued you are. And sometimes, no matter what you say, the situation is gonna go nuclear because of the people u deal with. (can't be reasoned with).
     
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  18. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    While it's true that a talker might have murderous henchmen, we need to make solo paths viable as well.

    Who said anything about not making enemies or angering people? It's not like a talker in AoD had no enemies and was beloved by all factions.
     
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  19. Shadenuat Arcane

    Shadenuat
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    Yeah knowing AoD I wouldn't fear the invulnerable diplomacy man, the best thing about that game's writing was that sometimes, regardless of how good you are you're just fucked because you made wrong choice or/at wrong place.
     
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  20. Black Angel Arcane

    Black Angel
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    Thankfully, this game is planned to have such things as 'too-much reputation', where the more you gain reputation in, say, being a silver tongue, pass certain threshold you'll only generate paranoia among people https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/tnw-reputation-ranks-reasoning.119229/
     
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  21. Daedalos Arcane The Real Fanboy

    Daedalos
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    No no I think you misunderstood me, I was actually supporting your argument. I don't believe AoD or Colony Ship would have non-agressive talker playthroughts, and thats a good thing. I was just saying, rpgs that have talker playthroughts that dont have any enemies or negative consequences, were unrealistic and not for me, and theres plenty of examples of that.
     
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  22. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    We're in agreement then and the new dialogue system forcing you to pay attention to what you say and figure out what would work better on the person you're talking to (instead of relying on your skill levels exclusively) would make the encounters more interesting.
     
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  23. Binky Savant

    Binky
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    Naturally. I was more curious about how it would work in the game. Pay a lot more attention to what you do or say, things coming to bite you in the ass later in a way that never quite did in AoD (deal with Carbo comes to mind), miss out on more stuff than a combat playthrough, etc.
    The only time I remember being fucked in AoD as a talker was when I convinced Gaelius to kill Paullus - a squad of very unhappy Guards was waiting for my turbaned gentleman later. Other than that, smooth sailing.
     
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  24. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
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    All three. We were reluctant to do long-term consequences for talkers in AoD because it meant death (and rage-quitting) in most cases but the party system would give us more flexibility and the solo represents extreme challenge anyway.
     
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  25. thesecret1 Prophet

    thesecret1
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    Making a talker and getting killed during an unavoidable fight is among the most frequent points whenever people whine about AoD. They ought to realise that when they specialise in one thing and neglect the other, they WILL needs to bear the negatives of their choice, not just the positives. If they want to have their cake and eat it too, they need to learn how to make a good hybrid (which is admittedly a bit tricky in AoD, but very satisfying when it works out)
     
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