Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

[Dorateen]

Old school dungeon crawlers were defined by their problem solving approaches. Not only map making, but also puzzles and riddles and requiring players to figure things out for themselves, without developer hand holding. You don't find the type of navigation obstacles in modern cRPG design that the classics had to create challenging gameplay.

I will admit it might be the issue that I simply haven't played the games with the best puzzles in the genre. But in my experience, the puzzles in this type of game are of a much more limited sort. Stuff like finding levers, hidden secret buttons, understanding how levers affect each other, etc. Don't get me wrong, this can be a whole lot of fun! But it fall short of the stuff you might have even in a simple module like the B1: In Search of the Unknown.

The first dungeon the party can enter in Might & Magic II introduces the player to scrambled messages that need to be decoded. This is done by finding various interleave messages, scattered throughout a sprawling gameworld, that are used to unlock the proper sequence of letters.

Bradley's Wizardries were notorious for making the player stumble across inventory items and divine their use, often required for some other remote location or far away map; or track down NPCs to interact with through the keyword parser. The kind of things that makes the player pay attention and take notes, ponder their discoveries and engage in problem solving.

 

[Dyspaire]

Many older RPGs are highly overrated. They used to be great at the time but much better games coming out along the years have made them entirely obsolete.

I disagree. They offer much more than modern games. Comparing Morrowind to Skyrim for eg, no levitation, no spellmaking, no teleport, no jump, no mark/recall, no attributes, no classes, no polarms <<<insert more 50000 things>>>> and the unique thing that skyrim brought who worth is the vampire lord form and better graphics.

When I think of "older" games, I think of the games I played growing up (I guess I'm outing myself as middle aged now) -- ultima 4, ultima 5, darklands, might and magic, wizardry, bard's tale, etc. Or perhaps the games I played in college, like fallout, baldur's gate, etc. Everything these old games did (exception for torment, noted below), SOME modern games do better. No, I don't mean skyrim, and no I don't mean any JRPG.

I don't get the hate on modern games. It's like people on here just automatically hate anything that's newer. Ok, fallout and elder scrolls got kind of fucked up, but how blind do you have to be to not see games like PfK as being better than something like Baldur's gate in every conceivable way? PoE? DoS? What the fuck people? (exception being Planescape; flawed game because the combat and interface are dogshit, but I don't think ANY game has ever had a better plot, more memorable characters, and more true RP'ing decisions).

Baldur's Gate and the IE games in general came out during Peak Forgotten Realms.

It was a different time. The airwaves were filled with news of Elminster and his exploits. The kids were busy playing with their Drizzt Do'Urden action figures in the backyard.

Those games were unique, playable stories, set in a very,very familiar setting to many. Nostalgia goes a long way.

No doubt some modern games are mechanically better at being games than the poor old Infinity Engine. If I were to confess my own controversial opinion, Deadfire 5.0 with turn-based combat enabled is the most fun I've had with an isometric since Baldur's Gate 2.

By far the prettiest isometric engine ever. Some really incredible art that stands up with the best the Infinity Engine games had to offer, in my opinion. A musical score that to me ranks up there with the greats like Jeremy Soules' work on Icewind Dale. A fairly unique (tropical islands and pirates!) setting that feels like an underused region of the Forgotten Realms at its best. Aesthetically it's a beautiful game, top to bottom.

The writing is adequate to quite good. Again, set Deadfire in the actual Forgotten Realms with all that vast lore to draw upon, and you got yourself a stew goin'.

And the turn-based combat is very sound and really quite a bit of fun. What made it the most fun I've had with an isometric in almost 20 years is in fact some really nice turn-based combat. Most unexpected from Obsidian in our current year.

Over the course of the game, dozens of times I found myself a half-hour into an intricate battle set-piece, having to use every trick I had in the book to pull out a narrow victory over seemingly insurmountable odds, grinning to myself.

Great game in its final form.


Cheers.

 

[Lilura]

By far the prettiest isometric engine ever.

Temple of Elemental Evil is prettier.



And so is this:

That's a roofs-off map extraction and shadows aren't on. It's also been downsized by half. Nothing beats that projection angle. Also note that environments are destructible, that there is seamless transition from indoors to outdoors, that roofs can be climbed upon, and that Jagged Alliance 2 came out in 1999.

ToEE, Fallout and Jagged Alliance 2 animations are still the best ever, too.

And the turn-based combat is very sound and really quite a bit of fun.

Jagged Alliance 2 and ToEE destroy it. So does Silent Storm.

 

[Alex]

Old school dungeon crawlers were defined by their problem solving approaches. Not only map making, but also puzzles and riddles and requiring players to figure things out for themselves, without developer hand holding. You don't find the type of navigation obstacles in modern cRPG design that the classics had to create challenging gameplay.

I will admit it might be the issue that I simply haven't played the games with the best puzzles in the genre. But in my experience, the puzzles in this type of game are of a much more limited sort. Stuff like finding levers, hidden secret buttons, understanding how levers affect each other, etc. Don't get me wrong, this can be a whole lot of fun! But it fall short of the stuff you might have even in a simple module like the B1: In Search of the Unknown.

The first dungeon the party can enter in Might & Magic II introduces the player to scrambled messages that need to be decoded. This is done by finding various interleave messages, scattered throughout a sprawling gameworld, that are used to unlock the proper sequence of letters.

Actually, this helps me explain better what I mean by saying that problem solving is limited in these games, so thanks!

See, the issue here is that we are talking of a specific kind of problem, which I think could be rightfully called a riddle. The difference here is that it is a pre-fabricated problems, one that is made specifically to be solved one way. This kind of stuff, doors that open to the solving of a riddle, levers that need to be adjusted so the bridge has no holes in it, etc, they have their logic inside themselves rather than in the external world.

Now take B1 like I mentioned earlier. It had a particularly nasty trap where

B1 - In Search of the Unknown spoiler

a gate would fall down, if I am not mistaken, after a pressure plate was stepped on.

Now, this is a different kind of problem because, the solution doesn't depend on understanding a specific logic. It requires creative problem solving. What could a party that fell in the trap do? There are a few things that might work, including trying to attract a wandering monster, using some spell (reduce from a 3rd level m.u. should do the trick), etc. Now, like I said, computer games are rather limited in how well they can deal with this stuff, but I think a game like fallout attempted to emulate this kind of problem solving somewhat well.

Bradley's Wizardries were notorious for making the player stumble across inventory items and divine their use, often required for some other remote location or far away map; or track down NPCs to interact with through the keyword parser. The kind of things that makes the player pay attention and take notes, ponder their discoveries and engage in problem solving.

Fair points, although I think this is more of an exception. First, I would say that other games used the keyword system somewhat better, like the Neuromancer game. I do, however, think modern RPGs throwing away keywords in favour of dialogue trees were a huge mistake. I get that the trees can make for good and more fluid dialogue, and maybe they have their uses. But it made conversations in RPGs almost as bad as those visual novel things. This was even worse than when adventure games threw away the parser.

 

[smaug]

A man can dream.

 

[Erebus]

Arcanum is not a good game with a few flaws, it's a bad game with a few good things.

 

[tindrli]

Dark Souls is overrated piece of garbage.

this

 

[Incendax]

I wanted to love Temple of Elemental Evil... but the UI was worse than fucking Grimoire.

 

[TodComod]

This is more of a guess from the few books I've read. Most good RPGs don't have as good of stories as a lot of people like to say. We choose to look past the problems with the stories because they're still entertaining enough to pass when paired with the rest of the gameplay.

Most of us aren't well read including me. Fight me on this I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[hello friend]

Crafting is a dumb timesink for autists.

Not a controversial opinion prolly, but I gotta say I miss riddles in RPGs.

 

[otsego]

Turn-based combat is not the be all and end all of a good RPG.

 

[Eirinjas]

Strictly turn-based RPGs are the refuge of the slow-witted and anal-retentive.

 

[smaug]

Turn-based combat is not the be all and end all of a good RPG.

Strictly turn-based RPGs are the refuge of the slow-witted and anal-retentive.

God these faggots justifying RTwP, fuck you

 

[FeelTheRads]

Strictly turn-based RPGs

A non strictly turn-based RPG would be what exactly?

How about not being a pathetic piece of shit passive aggressive going half way with your "controversial opinion" and just say what you wanted that "turn-based RPGs are the refuge of the slow-witted and anal-retentive."

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Puzzles are a more integral part of RPGs than either story-LARPing or CYOA&C. The disappearance of puzzles from CRPGs was part of the general decline in CRPG gameplay, sacrificed at the altar of narrative.

 

[Fairfax]

Turn-based combat is not the be all and end all of a good RPG.

It's also inferior to phase-based anyway.

 

[smaug]

Turn-based combat is not the be all and end all of a good RPG.

It's also inferior to phase-based anyway.

You mean inferior to AD&D. Spamming much

 

[rusty_shackleford]

RPGs are fun and I enjoy playing them

 

[Fairfax]

Turn-based combat is not the be all and end all of a good RPG.

It's also inferior to phase-based anyway.

You mean inferior to AD&D. Spamming much

The fact you don't know other examples shows how little you know about RPGs.

 

[smaug]

I know what phases based is and I’m not afraid to back why theoretically I prefer turn-based

I’m starting JA2 tonight as well

 

[Eirinjas]

A non strictly turn-based RPG would be what exactly?

How about not being a pathetic piece of shit passive aggressive going half way with your "controversial opinion" and just say what you wanted that "turn-based RPGs are the refuge of the slow-witted and anal-retentive."

And forego triggering pedantic sensitive Nancies in need of safe spaces? I think not, Nancy.

 

[RK47]

can't fight autism

 

[Lilura]

RPGs are fun and I enjoy playing them

Yet you know nothing about them.

 

[smaug]

Fairfax why do you believe Phase-based is more tactical than turn-based?

 

[Fairfax]

Fairfax why do you believe Phase-based is more tactical than turn-based?

Well, I didn't say that. Being 'more tactical' or not (whatever you mean by that) still depends on implementation, encounter design, etc. Anyway, PB x TB would be a long argument, but in short:

TB RPGs heavily encourage and reward metagaming, due to the large amount of meta knowledge that players have/acquire before making decisions. This is significantly worse in CRPGs, where there's no human on the other side to control the enemies, and the AI always sucks. In PB RPGs, player have much more limited information available. They can't rely on the turn order, don't get to see other actions being resolved before a character's turn, and don't have abundant time to reconsider their plans every time a PC's turn comes up.