Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,024
... explain why you think that the Joining scene is so utterly horrible and wrong? Inquiring mind wants to know.
Hümmelgümpf said:What I didn't get is why Duncan didn't even try to persuade the guy before killing him. For fuck's sake, a comrade died before his eyes, of course he'd be uneasy and start thinking whether he's doing the smart thing. I understand that the scene is meant to show that the Spectres are protecting the galaxy at any cost, but they could have illustrated the point a bit more subtly.
Vault Dweller said:Well, I don't think that most people would be ok with the fact that the Wardens drink the tainted blood. Some might even say that by doing that they become what they fight. I thought it was kind of obvious, no?
If you recall, the guy says that he changed his mind, Duncan says it's too late now, bro, the guy draws out his sword. Later when I asked Duncan if killing the guy was necessary, he says that once the guy reached for his weapon, it was too late, which kinda makes sense.Hümmelgümpf said:What I didn't get is why Duncan didn't even try to persuade the guy before killing him.
I think that it's a somewhat typical "we've reached the point of no return, now that you know what we are, you can't go back" situation. Anyway, same question is before, how would you have designed that scene?For fuck's sake, a comrade died before his eyes, of course he'd be uneasy and start thinking whether he's doing the smart thing. I understand that the scene is meant to show that the Spectres are protecting the galaxy at any cost, but they could have illustrated the point a bit more subtly.
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic ... 788#949788MetalCraze said:Vault Dweller said:Well, I don't think that most people would be ok with the fact that the Wardens drink the tainted blood. Some might even say that by doing that they become what they fight. I thought it was kind of obvious, no?
Of course - and Gaider is a talented writer who writes deep stories with hidden meanings.
Except it doesn't. While the man does draw out a sword, he obviously is in no condition to start waving it around.Vault Dweller said:If you recall, the guy says that he changed his mind, Duncan says it's too late now, bro, the guy draws out his sword. Later when I asked Duncan if killing the guy was necessary, he says that once the guy reached for his weapon, it was too late, which kinda makes sense.Hümmelgümpf said:What I didn't get is why Duncan didn't even try to persuade the guy before killing him.
Duncan talks the guy down, he calms down, lowers the sword. When he finally comes to his senses Duncan again asks him to drink the blood. He refuses and asks to be let go to his wife and child. He talks in a composed voice, showing that he really means every single word he says. Then Duncan kills him.I think that it's a somewhat typical "we've reached the point of no return, now that you know what we are, you can't go back" situation. Anyway, same question is before, how would you have designed that scene?
I don't see how. They both mean essentially the same thing.PS. Btw, "could have illustrated the point a bit more subtly" is already an improvement over "Does it outweigh cheese like the Joining?". You're a scholar and a gentleman, Humps.
The acting isn't very good (it's a game though), and after the guy is killed it just continues as normal. Hell, the scene seems more relaxed after the guy is killed than before the first guy dies.Vault Dweller said:Badly done? Ok. How would you have done it? I'm just trying to understand why so many people here seem to be stuck on that scene.
The guy already told everyone about his fears and his wife/family. Why restate it again? Duncan has already shown himself as a guy who is committed to the cause and who does what he thinks is right. As a guy who already passed the ritual and dedicated his life to the cause, he would have zero patience for guys who don't have the same commitment. I don't see him as a guy who would beg someone to reconsider and waste time just so he can kill him with a clean conscience.Hümmelgümpf said:Duncan talks the guy down, he calms down, lowers the sword. When he finally comes to his senses Duncan again asks him to drink the blood. He refuses and asks to be let go to his wife and child. He talks in a composed voice, showing that he really means every single word he says. Then Duncan kills him.I think that it's a somewhat typical "we've reached the point of no return, now that you know what we are, you can't go back" situation. Anyway, same question is before, how would you have designed that scene?
Does he have a cool fatherly side? Should he have it?This way the scene shows both Duncan's cool fatherly side...
And this is wrong because? Most people I've seen are massive jerks and people with cool fatherly sides are very, very rare (and are a massive cliche in fantasy games).The way it is in the game, the scene shows Duncan as a massive jerk who starts chopping people at the slightest provocation.
I understand. The cool facade must be maintained at all times.I don't see how. They both mean essentially the same thing.PS. Btw, "could have illustrated the point a bit more subtly" is already an improvement over "Does it outweigh cheese like the Joining?". You're a scholar and a gentleman, Humps.
opium fiend said:To preserve the secretness of the ritual, obviously. The thing I hated is that my character just picked up the fucking chalice calmly and drank the black blood like he didn't notice what happened to the sod before him.
No.Vault Dweller said:... explain why you think that the Joining scene is so utterly horrible and wrong? Inquiring mind wants to know.
It's either that or being gutted by Duncan. Good motivation.opium fiend said:Still, he took it like he couldn't wait for his turn. Enough of the fucking distractions, I want to drink some of the evil demon blood that will do who knows what to me, even if I don't die on the spot.
So you're disappointed because the story isn't what you wanted it to be? You aren't a beloved hero and you didn't join the respected elite?Chateaubryan said:I'll put aside the "why didn't Duncan try to persuade/force the guy to drink" and focus on the general awkwardness of the joining.
This is supposed to be the "consecration" of the hero, a sacred ritual by wich he'll become a part of one of the most feared or respected elite of Thedas.....
And it's wrong because?On one side, you got all the aspects of a ritual that make it sacred (consacred chalice, the quest for the blood of your ennemies, the memento of those who died on the ritual) and on the other, all those sordid aspects that makes it look like a dirty backstreet quickie (the former colleague that gets killed without reasoning : mafia-mob-level-killing, the chalice put on the border of the table like it's a beer leftover, the scenery).
If you say so. Of course, there is a middle ground, but who needs it, right? Maybe the Wardens are neither good nor evil. Neither ruthless nor compassionate. They are a small group that no longer commands the respect it once had and they are reduced to begging for recruits and getting them where they can. They can't force someone to be them, so if one refuses to drink the blood, there really isn't any fucking choice there but to kill them quickly before they give other recruits (you) ideas.If the writer's intent is to depict the ruthlessness, the unformal ways of the Gray Warden then he missed his goal by showing them caring, saying "sorry" instead of "you had your chance, trash". You don't make the Gray Warden seems compassionate when their ritual is about letting the weak die, and killing the coward without a second thought. It just seems schizophrenic, or dumb.
How is the scene "like Jedi but with blood"? Jedi don't kill the recruits and don't force them to join them.By making the choice of doing this scene in a median way, you get a median emotion from the viewer/player : nothing. Worse, you're making it seems amateurish.
"Let's make 'em Jedis, but with blood !"
Vault Dweller said:It's either that or being gutted by Duncan. Good motivation.opium fiend said:Still, he took it like he couldn't wait for his turn. Enough of the fucking distractions, I want to drink some of the evil demon blood that will do who knows what to me, even if I don't die on the spot.
Vibalist said:The only problem I had with it was when Duncan slew that apprentice guy who tried to back out, since I didn't really understand why he had to do that other than for the sake of making the scene dramatic and serious.