Could any of you morons...

[Trash]

You see, grandpa, thats why having different joinable factions is generally considered a good idea, so that if you liked Duncan so much, you will be free to join him, and we will be free to act some other way. So far you are just getting angry at everyone for not liking the story as much as you do. The fact that you liked the story does not make this a good design for RPG.

Weren't you defending Dungeon Cleaners as a good rpg?

 

[Hamster]

This is unlikely since i never got very far in Dungeon Cleaners to form a proper opinion.

 

[Darth Roxor]

I have no idea about anything concerning Dungeon Cleaners, but comrade Hamster actually brings up a very good point.

 

[Trash]

Well, it's a design decision that would make for a very different game. Bioware always go for storydriven rpg's like this instead of open world rpg like Risen. Both often do things very differently. In this game it makes perfect sense for Duncan to murder the poor recruit. That's pretty much all there is to it.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

Well, it's a design decision that would make for a very different game. Bioware always go for storydriven rpg's like this instead of open world rpg like Risen. Both often do things very differently. In this game it makes perfect sense for Duncan to murder the poor recruit. That's pretty much all there is to it.

No, it makes zero sense unless its purpose is to be there because someone at bioware came to the realization that 8 year old boys like to see blood.

 

[Trash]

Lame.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Why doesn't it make sense? People here have a hardon for persuading the shit out of everyone even if the circumstances don't allow for it.

Oh shit he fucked up the secret ritual, let's just hold hands and talk this over, shall we?

 

[Hamster]

Well, it's a design decision that would make for a very different game. Bioware always go for storydriven rpg's like this instead of open world rpg like Risen. .

I will copy my post concerning "but _insert game name_ was story driven/ rairoaded too" argument from ITS:

Once again, you make comparisons of various railroaded events as if all railroaded events were equal simple because railroading is present in all of them. They are not. There is a direct correlation between nature and scale of the event and reaction of the player when he is railroaded into it. There is absolutely no sense in comparing joining Gray Wardens with not being able to be non-vaultman, these events are too different.

Just replace "not being able to be non-vaultman" with "being baalspawn".


Btw, i wonder why everyone always remember baalspawn thing but forgets about "save Imoen" crap. Now that was a bad story element, not as bad as Gray Wardens thing, but still bad. The thing is, i, personally, wanted to save Imoen and BG2 is one of my favourite games evar, but somehow i am able to resist an urge to create a special thread on codex for calling everyone who disagrees morons and have no problems with condemning this story element.

 

[NOVD]

Duncan killed Jory in order to maintain the secret of the Joining. Though, given the number of Grey Wardens and how they're selected, you'd expect that the secret would have gotten out already.

The point is driven home a number of times that the Grey Wardens aren't good guys. Duncan sure as hell isn't going to chat it over with the guy.

 

[Vault Dweller]

This. It's completely unwarranted. He doesn't even try to talk some sense into him first. He just kills him outright. And you can't even object. Instead you just chuck the fucking cup and say nothing. Afterwards the only reply you have is "I still can't believe you killed that dude!" to which Duncan answers "Well, he had it coming!" On this, you can't disagree.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

You see, grandpa, thats why having different joinable factions is generally considered a good idea, so that if you liked Duncan so much, you will be free to join him, and we will be free to act some other way. So far you are just getting angry at everyone for not liking the story as much as you do. The fact that you liked the story does not make this a good design for RPG.

I'm not getting angry. I'm merely puzzled by posts like:

"Guy drinks from cup and dies and Duncan goes into T_T mode, mourning the red shirt with all his wickle heart... and then he guts the recruit who fails to show the proper grimdark reaction.

Answer: Dunkin' Donuts has split personality syndrome and should take medicine."

The Wardens play a large and very specific role in the game. To throw in another joinable faction (for the sake of having one or two) would have made absolutely no sense. I can't say that I like the story as I haven't experienced it yet. I'm just commenting on the criticism.

Children. You're stating the same shit over and over again without making any fucking sense. So far the "arguments" are:

- it's cheesy and I hated it
- it's not what I wanted
- I'M VERY ANGRY ABOUT VIDEO GAMES!!!
- Duncan didn't behave like a fatherly figure I wanted him to be
- Duncan isn't a nice person
- Duncan didn't do enough to save that man's life!
- Killing people is wrong
- Not enough action

:facepalm:

Guy drinks from cup and dies and Duncan goes into T_T mode, mourning the red shirt with all his wickle heart... and then he guts the recruit who fails to show the proper grimdark reaction.

Answer: Dunkin' Donuts has split personality syndrome and should take medicine... or perhaps it's just a poorly thought of scene which serves no other purpose but to show what A MATURE GAME THIS IS AND IF YOU THINK ANY HARDER ABOUT IT YOU SHOULDN'T BE PLAYING IT LOL WHAT DO YOU WANT DEEP DIALOGUE GO PLAY PS:T FAGGOT

Duncan needs Wardens. He doesn't give a damn about the non-Wardens. He is upset that a potential Warden recruit died after drinking the blood, but he doesn't care much about the guy who decided to refuse the ritual. I thought that this part was crystal fucking clear.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The mere fact that it was still a secret was stupid. Large numbers of Grey wardens have been in existence for a long time, the secret hasn't been let out yet?

Does the Vatican have secrets? They do. They did a good job keeping everything that should be kept from the public a secret. Same goes for pretty much every organization, from the Templars to the Masonic Orders. The fact is that important secrets are easier to keep than you think.

Killing the guy instead of just disarming him and forcing him to drink.

It's not a magic drink that turns him into a brainwashed zombie, so forcing him to drink it wouldn't have changed the fact that he isn't a Warden material.

I mean, if we are going to be extreme, then you realize his only choice is going to be to die by the sword, die by the blood, or live. Here I think Bioware lapsed, they should have had Duncan pin him and force it down as throat while he died. It would make more sense from Duncan's point of view as well, the man would at least have a chance of becoming a Grey Warden.

That wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The problem wasn't so much about buying the idea that a "secretive cult" would kill off people who tried to leave once being admitted to their initiation ceremony - the problem was that I'd never gotten the impression that the Grey Wardens were a secretive cult at all by that point - even with the ritual trappings at the Joining.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... l#msg36938

 

[Trash]

I will copy my post concerning "but _insert game name_ was story driven/ rairoaded too" argument from ITS:

Sorry, that makes little sense here in this particular discussion. Especially when I did not use the argument you reacted to there. I'm sure you felt it was clever there and wanted to be clever here as well but you kinda fail. Sorry.

but somehow i am able to resist an urge to create a special thread on codex for calling everyone who disagrees morons

True. You only go berserk when someone is believed to say something bad about your holy fatherland and its magnificent ruling class.

 

[Lesifoere]

So far you are just getting angry at everyone for not liking the story as much as you do. The fact that you liked the story does not make this a good design for RPG.

Quite. Is this what becoming a dev, even an indie one, does to you? Rid you of all perspective and sense of humor?

 

[Hamster]

you kinda fail. Sorry.

Well, how can i possible react to such intelligent and powerful comment?

Especially when I did not use the argument you reacted to there.

What, your cat typed this by incident?

Bioware always go for storydriven rpg's like this

 

[Trash]

And what has me calling DA a typical Bioware rpg got to do with this?

"Once again, you make comparisons of various railroaded events as if all railroaded events were equal simple because railroading is present in all of them. They are not. There is a direct correlation between nature and scale of the event and reaction of the player when he is railroaded into it. There is absolutely no sense in comparing joining Gray Wardens with not being able to be non-vaultman, these events are too different".

Absolutely nothing. Piss off.

 

[Hamster]

True. You only go berserk when someone is believed to say something bad about your holy fatherland and its magnificent ruling class.

That's exactly because fatherland is a serious buisness and "someone don't likes videogame story i like" is not :wink:

 

[Hamster]

And what has me calling DA a typical Bioware rpg got to do with this?

Are you trying to say that when you called typical Bioware rpgs "storydriven" you did not refer to various railroading events present in them? Then wtf where you talking about? How can RPG be storydriven without railroaded events?

 

[Overweight Manatee]

The mere fact that it was still a secret was stupid. Large numbers of Grey wardens have been in existence for a long time, the secret hasn't been let out yet?

Does the Vatican have secrets? They do. They did a good job keeping everything that should be kept from the public a secret. Same goes for pretty much every organization, from the Templars to the Masonic Orders. The fact is that important secrets are easier to keep than you think.

I think that if every single priest knew that 2/3rds of all priests are killed in their initiation, word would get out. Its not like its something just the pope would know and would simply not mention, everyone in the establishment would know it.

Killing the guy instead of just disarming him and forcing him to drink.

It's not a magic drink that turns him into a brainwashed zombie, so forcing him to drink it wouldn't have changed the fact that he isn't a Warden material.

How so? Thats the only possible reason that the initiation isn't widely known. If you have another idea of how the secret is kept, please tell. He clearly is warden material insofar as he hits bad guys with pointy sticks.

I mean, if we are going to be extreme, then you realize his only choice is going to be to die by the sword, die by the blood, or live. Here I think Bioware lapsed, they should have had Duncan pin him and force it down as throat while he died. It would make more sense from Duncan's point of view as well, the man would at least have a chance of becoming a Grey Warden.

That wouldn't have made any sense whatsoever.

Simply look at the ways it could play out:

A. Duncan kills him. He dies.

B.Duncan feeds him the poison. He dies.

C. Duncan feeds him the poison. He lives, becomes a warden, doesn't share the horrible secret for the exact same reason the player doesn't (IE because bioware says thats how it works).

How is slicing his head off a good choice now? Nevermind that doing such things only make it even more probable that outsiders will be warned about how fucked up joining the wardens is. "Oh look, we found the head of that guy who was supposed to take do the warden ritual last night. He's sliced into 10 pieces". Great way to leave evidence around, at least the poison is clean.

 

[Trash]

You make me want to read all sorts of stuff in a badly written and unclear quote that's totally out of context from some discussion you had on ITS. And you wonder why I fail to see its relevancy here?

 

[mediocrepoet]

The problem wasn't so much about buying the idea that a "secretive cult" would kill off people who tried to leave once being admitted to their initiation ceremony - the problem was that I'd never gotten the impression that the Grey Wardens were a secretive cult at all by that point - even with the ritual trappings at the Joining.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/in ... l#msg36938

Eh, I remember that. What I meant was less that I didn't get the idea that the initiation could be fatal and more that Duncan's voice acting + dialog at the Jory confrontation really didn't get me to buy into the situation. It basically felt arbitrary. I think that it could've been done better so that my reaction wasn't to immediately think that the scene was lame and instead think of it as powerful or interesting or tense or really anything that isn't, "Hey, this scene is really kind of stupid as is."

But you're right, my choice of the words "secret" seems to be ill-chosen though I was more trying to emphasize the "cult" aspect - that he'd turn around and kill the guy off. Again, I don't have an issue with the logic of the action so much as the portrayal - it's that that made me react to it as being inauthentic.

 

[Trash]

True. DA sure can get hammy.

 

[Hamster]

You make me want to read all sorts of stuff in a badly written and unclear quote that's totally out of context from some discussion you had on ITS. And you wonder why I fail to see its relevancy here?

Well, sorry, english is not my first language and stuff. But i don't see anything so unclear in my quote. You see, not all storydriven games are equal, because players react differently to various story elements. So two story-driven games with the same ammount of railroading can generate radically different reactions from players due to nuances in their stories.

For example, joining a Jedi Order and joining Gray Wardens. It's the same railroading but we won't see many complaints about the first variant, would we?

 

[Clockwork Knight]

[How so? Thats the only possible reason that the initiation isn't widely known. If you have another idea of how the secret is kept, please tell. He clearly is warden material insofar as he hits bad guys with pointy sticks.

I'm guessing it takes more than hitting bad guys. For starters, not pussying out during the ritual.

Simply look at the ways it could play out:

A. Duncan kills him. He dies.

B.Duncan feeds him the poison. He dies.

C. Duncan feeds him the poison. He lives, becomes a warden, doesn't share the horrible secret for the exact same reason the player doesn't (IE because bioware says thats how it works).

How is slicing his head off a good choice now?

That implies simply taking the poison and surviving is what takes to be a warden. Instead, one of the requisites is not pussying out when asked to drink it. Slicing his head is a good choice because he's obviously not joining, and they don't want the word to get out. Duncan force feeds him the poison, he may survive, but then we'd have the pussy as a warden. No different than a gang that takes any piece of shit they meet that can survive a initiation beating.

 

[Darth Roxor]

they don't want the word to get out.

This is still stupid. It would be valid if, I dunno, after drinking you'd get a mind-controlling device planted into your head that would explode right before you'd want to tell someone about how the initiation works.