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Could any of you morons...

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^Yeah, it doesn't take into account someone betraying them from the inside. Then again, they're still doing something to keep the secret. And it's not a huge sacrifice, killing unfit grunt guys is a lot easier and faster than keeping an eye on every member that may spill it out, 24/7.
 

Trash

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Hamster said:
Well, sorry, english is not my first language and stuff. But i don't see anything so unclear in my quote. You see, not all storydriven games are equal, because players react differently to various story elements. So two story-driven games with the same ammount of railroading can generate radically different reactions from players due to nuances in their stories.

Then you probably missed or misread the entire point I tried to make earlier. Let me try to be more clear then. I reacted to your comment that having only one joinable faction wasn't a good design choice. My reaction was that DA:O has no plethora of joinable factions because that's not something Bioware does. They build storydriven rpg's that indeed railroad the player amongst a certain path. This game has surprisingly quite some divergence from that path according to how you play it but it still follows a very set course. Good or bad it is just how they design their games and Duncan killing the recruit made perfect sense within that framework.

For example, joining a Jedi Order and joining Gray Wardens. It's the same railroading but we won't see many complaints about the first variant, would we?

Don't really get what's so different that would make joining the Jedi order not make codexers complain. Unless you're trying to imply they are all fucked up nerds that secretly want to fuck Leia and swing a lightsaber around. You're probably right.
 

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Trash said:
Then you probably missed or misread the entire point I tried to make earlier. Let me try to be more clear then. I reacted to your comment that having only one joinable faction wasn't a good design choice. My reaction was that DA:O has no plethora of joinable factions because that's not something Bioware does.
I just didn't take into account that i did not fully explain my position as i did on ITS.

I don't think that different factions are the only thing that can help here, just a less controversial story, even if equaly railroaded, would do.
Thats why i don't take "all bioware game were like this" argument. I don't remember NWN, Kotor or BG having railroading in such controversial events, even if all those games were storydriven.
 

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Trash said:
Unless you're trying to imply they are all fucked up nerds that secretly want to fuck Leia and swing a lightsaber around. You're probably right.
Well, something like this. Fucked up nerds secrently wanting to fuck Leia outnumber Gray Warden fans by multi-digit numbers, and thats happening for a good reason.
If they want to force players into a faction, Bioware should first come up with awesome organisation that can generate so many nerds before railroading players into joining it.
Some cheap order fighting ancient evil won't do.
 

Darth Roxor

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Clockwork Knight said:
^Yeah, it doesn't take into account someone betraying them from the inside. Then again, they're still doing something to keep the secret. And it's not a huge sacrifice, killing unfit grunt guys is a lot easier and faster than keeping an eye on every member that may spill it out, 24/7.

There could actually be a very good way to keep it secret and believable. Just don't tell the recruits that it's tainted blood. Tell everyone that it's a very potent magic potion that makes people sense the darkspawn, and give the truth only to the highest ranking members, case closed.

It could even open the way to a Biowarian Twist (TM) or at the very least to some side quest.
 

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Hamster said:
I don't think that different factions are the only thing that can help here, just a less controversial story, even if equaly railroaded, would do.
Thats why i don't take "all bioware game were like this" argument. I don't remember NWN, Kotor or BG having railroading in such controversial events, even if all those games were storydriven.

Guess they decided to go for "gritty" and "mature" instead of going for a less controversial approach. All previous Bioware rpg's had dramatic events that played out no matter what the player's own input in them. They just drove the point home a bit more firm with this one.

Hamster said:
Well, something like this. Fucked up nerds secrently wanting to fuck Leia outnumber Gray Warden fans by multi-digit numbers, and thats happening for a good reason.
If they want to force players into a faction, Bioware should first come up with awesome organisation that can generate so many nerds before railroading players into joining it.
Some cheap order fighting ancient evil won't do.

The grey wardens work perfectly within the setting and I have absolutely no problem with them. The game is already trying to be more than epic enough for me without Bio going all out on teh awzum heroic uberdoodz.

And just you wait for the first fanfics to appear. :wink:
 
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Clockwork Knight said:
Overweight Manatee said:
[How so? Thats the only possible reason that the initiation isn't widely known. If you have another idea of how the secret is kept, please tell. He clearly is warden material insofar as he hits bad guys with pointy sticks.

I'm guessing it takes more than hitting bad guys. For starters, not pussying out during the ritual.

Because drinking poison defeats the darkspawns, right? I thought hitting them with pointy sticks does that.

If I wanted to join the military, I would be fine with shooting people. Would I be fine with drinking poison just to prove I am recklessly stupid? No. Does this make me somehow unfit to shoot people then?
 
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Darth Roxor said:
There could actually be a very good way to keep it secret and believable. Just don't tell the recruits that it's tainted blood. Tell everyone that it's a very potent magic potion that makes people sense the darkspawn, and give the truth only to the highest ranking members, case closed.

Yes, but that generates the problem of not weeding out pussies at the ritual. If you get in by luck, it's no different than letting in guys that would back out if they knew the truth.

Because drinking poison defeats the darkspawns, right? I thought hitting them with pointy sticks does that.

If I wanted to join the military, I would be fine with shooting people. Would I be fine with drinking poison just to prove I am recklessly stupid? No. Does this make me somehow unfit to shoot people then?

No, but it proves you have the balls for the job, or something. Otherwise, they could just recruit random soldiers. Any fagget can pull a trigger, but the military isn't letting every psycho with functional index fingers in.
 

Darth Roxor

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Clockwork Knight said:
Yes, but that generates the problem of not weeding out pussies at the ritual.

Why? The fact that it might be fatal after consumption would still stand.
 
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Clockwork Knight said:
Darth Roxor said:
There could actually be a very good way to keep it secret and believable. Just don't tell the recruits that it's tainted blood. Tell everyone that it's a very potent magic potion that makes people sense the darkspawn, and give the truth only to the highest ranking members, case closed.

Yes, but that generates the problem of not weeding out pussies at the ritual. If you get in by luck, it's no different than letting in guys that would back out if they knew the truth.

How does it weed out pussies now? The first person died by luck. Had the second guy not seen the first person die infront of him, he may have taken the poison and survived just fine. It's a matter of luck as it is.
 
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Why? The fact that it might be fatal after consumption would still stand.

Keyword, might. You're risking letting useless faggots joining your extreme organization because they lucked out on the test.

How does it weed out pussies now? The first person died by luck. Had the second guy not seen the first person die infront of him, he may have taken the poison and survived just fine. It's a matter of luck as it is.

You have a point. But then, only the first guy depended on luck. The second had to deal with the question. If he hadn't seen the first guy diying, then we would have two guys being ignorant, instead of one.

Well, maybe they could take the thing all at the same time, guess it would be better then.
 

Darth Roxor

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Clockwork Knight said:
Keyword, might. You're risking letting useless faggots joining your extreme organization because they lucked out on the test.

Except that it wouldn't be any different than it is now.
 
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Maybe every initiation should have the first person drink real 100% fatal poison, just to use them as an example to scare the rest of the group so that they have to prove themselves. Yeah, thats totally extreme, bioware should hire me to make their plot more extreme.
 
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Bah, every RPG where you don't get to attack anyone at sight suck. Even relatively good RPG's like Bloodlines and MOTB are so much less because you can't murder everyone. Also, the lack of jumping.
 

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There is nothing wrong with the Joining as such. It's obvious that it's there as a plot device to drive home the point that Wardens are grim and determined, only the strongest are fit to join, the weak must be weeded out as they stand no chance against the orcs anyway.

It's just the amateurish acting/writing and lack of exposition for any of the involved NPCs (unless you read the equally amateurish books, I assume) that fail to build any suspense in the scene and it's just like " Yeah ok I see what you did there".
 

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Much shit from ado. Despite lame writing the whole idea behind this scene was okay. Were my PC at Duncan's place, he'd do the same thing.
 

Hamster

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On ITS Gray Warden fans have gone into full fanboy <i will not listen to any of your arguments, evil whiner, and will just troll with "you will also want to talk with monster in Doom" level posts> defense strategy.
 

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