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Jasede

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Bullshit, Diablo was an action roguelike, which was a ground-breaking new genre at the time. Was it simplified? Sure. Was it fun? Indubitably.
Who gives a shit if it was a 'good RPG' if it was a fun game?

And you fuckboy, we all remembered when Diablo 1 came out, and we even remember when we went on RPG Codex to call Baldur's Gate newshit faggot decline popamole... wild days.
 

CryptRat

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My opinion :

- I didn't play Diablo with permadeath. So maybe I simply missed the point. But therefore it only felt limited compared with the other big random RPG that was Elder Scrolls : The Arena (note that I played Dungeon Hack with permadeath and it felt limited too) by removing the campaign, the somewhat mysterious dungeons (not saying dungeons in Arena are amazing), by comparison world interactivity, and the spell creation system which is probably the most fun thing in this game. And I already thought Arena removed a lot of things I liked in RPGs, it's already really not my favourite kind of games, don't misinterpret I'm not really talking about action and item gain randomness but mostly about party management and party-based combat and complex dungeons or worlds with cool layouts and puzzles.

- I did not play roguelikes at that time, but these days I play roguelikes and Diablo is nothing like the roguelikes I like the most. For example none of my favourite rogue-likes is one where you buy and spam potions. I think there are a lot of things which work better with permadeath than without permadeath which is why I would play roguelikes, I really don't consider randomness as an end in itself, it's, in my opinion, a requirement for a game which you keep replaying from the start and which is fun anyway. An example of good use of randomness without permadeath is possible random encounters between two maps in Baldur's Gate, while random layouts are rarely a good sign. With permadeath it's different, better having random layouts than always the same. Two examples or rogue-likes I like : Castle of Xarskazien II has the best non-combat skill-check gameplay in any game, period, or if I'm wrong, since there are tons of things I have not played, then it's cool because I'll have more games to play. That justifies permadeath (which justifies single character, permadeath means character dies = game over or it's something else), the game is not like playing Natuk except with very simple combat, it's something else. Second example : Brogue (I played Rogue but not much so I know Brogue better) is a good example of how rogue-likes can be fun, I know it's obvious but it's simply tight resource management. A very important part of the game is identifying items one way. Food management is tense (while in Dungeon Master or Eye of the beholder it does not add much). The game is very good, while with unlimited cheap identifying or buying cheap consumables in a town it would be very bad, meaningless. Once again it's something which works because permadeath, so I accept the permadeath and single character gameplay.

I see Brogue as a its own good game while I have difficulties seeing Diablo as anything else than bad Icewind Dale.
 

Jasede

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You're comparing Diablo, an attempt at creating a new genre, a real-time roguelike suitable for casual play (with optional permadeath mode,) with the old roguelike genre when I've explicitly stated that Diablo was intentionally developed as a stripped-down version so as to focus on player reactivity (action) instead of planning.

Like, who in their right mind compares Diablo (an action-RPG or a unique modern action real-time Roguelike-inspired game) with a rogue-like or Rtwp RPG? They're apples and oranges.

I don't go into the cinema to watch Infinity War and then compare it to Tarkovsky's Stalker; they couldn't be any more different and try to do different things.
 

V_K

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The problem with Diablo is that it barely qualifies as RPG - there's next to zero build variety, and what little variety there is only affects whether it'll be your left or right mouse button that breaks off first. Sure, it might still be a good action game, I have no idea about that, it's not my jam. But the fact is that every two out of three RPGs in the decade following Diablo's release were Diablo clones - that is to say, repetitive action games sprinkled with a few stats. If that's not the definition of decline, I don't know what is.
 

V_K

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The problem with Diablo is that it barely qualifies as RPG - there's next to zero build variety, and what little variety there is only affects whether it'll be your left or right mouse button that breaks off first. Sure, it might still be a good action game, I have no idea about that, it's not my jam. But the fact is that every two out of three RPGs in the decade following Diablo's release were Diablo clones - that is to say, repetitive action games sprinkled with a few stats. If that's not the definition of decline, I don't know what is.

Diablo 1 to Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 has mood/visuals-decline, Dragon Age 1 to 2 to 3 shows clear mechanics decline, but just because a genre of simplified action RPGs has evolved out of the core RPG genre isn't per se decline, they didn't replace normal RPGs, they just offered more variety on top of it
Tell that to publishers that started demanding every RPG to have real-time combat, making TB virtually extinct for over a decade, until nu-XCOM showed it was in fact commercially viable.
 

V_K

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The problem with Diablo is that it barely qualifies as RPG - there's next to zero build variety, and what little variety there is only affects whether it'll be your left or right mouse button that breaks off first. Sure, it might still be a good action game, I have no idea about that, it's not my jam. But the fact is that every two out of three RPGs in the decade following Diablo's release were Diablo clones - that is to say, repetitive action games sprinkled with a few stats. If that's not the definition of decline, I don't know what is.

Diablo 1 to Diablo 2 to Diablo 3 has mood/visuals-decline, Dragon Age 1 to 2 to 3 shows clear mechanics decline, but just because a genre of simplified action RPGs has evolved out of the core RPG genre isn't per se decline, they didn't replace normal RPGs, they just offered more variety on top of it
Tell that to publishers that started demanding every RPG to have real-time combat, making TB virtually extinct for over a decade, until nu-XCOM showed it was in fact commercially viable.

You should have played Japanese games at the time, there was no lack of TB games
1) Not the point. It's not about what I played at the time (I had found abandonware sites thankfully) but about what (disastrous) effect Diablo had on the RPG industry.
2) JRPGs are a different breed of decline.
 

Jasede

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Doesn't matter if it's "dumbed down decline" if it's fun to play. A game doesn't get better because it's more or less complex. It doesn't matter how casual a game is when it comes to rating it. Most arcade games have very simple mechanics and yet no connoisseur would consider them bad games. Tight mechanics > meaningless complexity.

It's not Diablo's fault if other companies dumb down the RPG genre further, it's the consumer's fault for voting with their wallet.

Like, railing on Fallout 3 or Oblivion makes sense because there, they're declining, at it were, an established series with a certain complexity. Complaining about decide in a brand new series is insanity. You want a real example of rogue-like decline? Look no further than dungeon crawl stone soup. Autoexplore, autofight, all wands and potions are identified, most of the interesting spells and races have been removed over time, no more complex food system. That's decline.
 

Jasede

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I don't know why I bother sometimes, you're fucking retarded. Even a goddamn mongoloid would realize that "A invents new genre B" is not to blame for "Everyone else insists on genre R becoming more like genre B because A sold well."
And even if it did, so what? Realtime shit gave us Gothic, Gothic 2, Elex, Witcher 3 for you Polacks, etc. Not ever realtime game, RPG or not, is bad, and not every TB game is good. In fact, there was a lot of garbage shovelware you're too young to have experienced.
 

CryptRat

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So it's inconceivable to you that maybe I didn't like Diablo that much because I generally prefer more complex games? I really don't think it's some hyper controversial thing.
 

V_K

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It's not Diablo's fault if other companies dumb down the RPG genre further, it's the consumer's fault for voting with their wallet.
No, that's bullshit. It wasn't by chance that Blizzard stumbled on a dumbed-down RPG design that would appeal to casual crowds, they invented it on purpose. It's absolutely fair to blame them for what came next; they couldn't not have foreseen it.
 

Jasede

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No, that's perfectly fine; not everyone has to like Diablo or that style of game. The issue is when someone (not you) states that because they made a less complex RT rogue-like, this somehow 'started the decline.'
Look at George Duroy posting his pseudo-intellectual vapid shit.

I am defending Diablo because it's a good game and I attack Oblivion because it's a bad game. It's not decline to invent a new, simple genre. Oblivion didn't invent a new genre; it merely stripped down Daggerfall even more than Morrowind already had.
You're absolutely, 100% retarded if you thnk 'Diablo' started 'the decline' you fucking newfag. Nobody even considered Diablo an RPG in the vein of other RPG here, we always considered it an action-RPG at best, and it sits comfortably in that genre.

Why you are expecting an apple to behave like an orange I will never understand.
Nor will I ever get you idiotic belief that "hey, Diablo simplified the genre, and others copied it, so Diablo is the father of decline" argument because the market Diablo appeals to is NOT the market standard RPGs appeal to.

V_K
I get your point that "Blizzard invented a dumbed down genre." I don't think it's a big deal because in my eyes Diablo isn't even a proper RPG, but an action-RPG, but that aside, I get your point.
I don't understand how you leap from that to 'it started the decline.' If there always was a market for simpler action-focused games like that, why is it wrong to tap into that market? There are good and bad action-focused RPG-like games. It's not like our style of RPGs ever died out. Hell fucking Fallout released after Diablo.
 

V_K

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Market has two sides: consumers and suppliers. Sure, the consumers of Diablo and TB RPGs might not intersect much - but suppliers absolutely do. Companies that could have produced classic RPGs saw Diablo's success and started churning out Diablo clones instead. Just look at Lionheart, for fuck's sake. Or at Sacred, which was originally envisioned as a TDE game.
 

Jasede

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Maybe you have a point there; just trying to point out that, isolated, Diablo is in no way a bad game, even if it may not be everyone's cup of tea.
 

Duralux for Durabux

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You attack Oblivion because it's the norm in this site but if the norm was to attack Diablo, you would attack it.
 

felipepepe

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Ultima 8 came out BEFORE Diablo, as did many other Action-RPGs. It was bound to happen, companies were already targeting a different audience, just look at M&M6's jump to real-time combat. Diablo II just did it better, like WoW did with MMOs.

Regardless, this is like saying "Ultima is decline because it led to a bunch of shitty Ultima clones".
 

Jasede

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You attack Oblivion because it's the norm in this site but if the norm was to attack Diablo, you would attack it.
Are you fucking retarded? I was attacking Oblivion before you were fucking born and I was defending Diablo even the what, 15 years ago when I registered here you goddamn moron; not because of any peer pressure but because it was my genuine opinion.
If you think I am afraid of going against the forum consensus you're a fucking idiot, as you can see by this thread where most people are attacking Diablo, and if I had any interest in being in the 'in-group' I'd be attacking it, too. People have been attacking me for who I am and what I believe here for 15 years and some fucking goddamn newfag is telling me I am 'going with the norm on this site.' You absolute cunt, GTFO.

I like a ton of shit RPG Codex hates, and hate a lot of shit they love. Like goddamn Homo Elysium, that piece of shit.
 

Fishy

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Diablo, an attempt at creating a new genre

Gauntlet 2 with a save functionality isn't a new genre, and the 2 in Gauntlet 2 should be a hint that it wasn't even new back then. Heck, Gauntlet 2 even feels like it has more monster types and colours than Diablo.

You may have a point however in that its success likely contributed to more and more loot/gear treadmill games which imho is a dreadful development, but to each their own. Irrespective of my own feelings, it certainly is a popular style.
 

Jasede

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Also you can't save in Diablo if you play in multiplayer, which can be played solo for permadeath.
 

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