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CRPGAddict

Nifft Batuff

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I would like to play a game with perma-permadeath: when you die, it auto-uninstalls and deletes all your internet accounts. You need to create onother account and re-buy to play it again. But it won't accept your old credit card.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
stop.png
STOP! posting

My oldest is obsessed with stop signs. About gotten him killed twice.

Not going to stop positing on this topic - the braindead propaganda has made millions miserable.
 

Fowyr

Arcane
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I get your point that "Blizzard invented a dumbed down genre." I don't think it's a big deal because in my eyes Diablo isn't even a proper RPG, but an action-RPG, but that aside, I get your point.
You know that it's not a proper RPG, I know it. V_K and others know it. Sadly, every second normie with whom I talked about RPGs since fucking 1998 thought that Diablo is a best RPG ever.
I don't understand how you leap from that to 'it started the decline.' If there always was a market for simpler action-focused games like that, why is it wrong to tap into that market? There are good and bad action-focused RPG-like games. It's not like our style of RPGs ever died out. Hell fucking Fallout released after Diablo.
It wasn't harbinger of decline, no, CRPGs were already almost dead with some DM-clones now or then (and European titles like Albion thrown in) but it was the game that shown publishers that dumbed-down RT isometric RPGs could be sold well.
 

Morblot

Aberrant Member | Star Trek V Apologist
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
You want a real example of rogue-like decline? Look no further than dungeon crawl stone soup. Autoexplore, autofight, all wands and potions are identified, most of the interesting spells and races have been removed over time, no more complex food system. That's decline.

So true, and also very sad, as the original Dungeon Crawl (before Stone Soup even) was my favorite roguelike. They managed to streamline the baby out with the bathwater...
 

Fowyr

Arcane
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Is Rogue a RPG?
Yes. It's a seminal game for the entire RPG subgenre. Very insular subgenre, but RPG nevertheless. Now say me why do you think that RT clickity-clack with a dumbed down character system is a roguelike? Is Binding of Isaac or Spelunky a roguelike? Are you retarded? Questions, so many questions.
 

V_K

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at a Nowhere near you
Is Rogue a RPG?
Yes. It's a seminal game for the entire RPG subgenre. Very insular subgenre, but RPG nevertheless. Now say me why do you think that RT clickity-clack with a dumbed down character system is a roguelike? Is Binding of Isaac or Spelunky a roguelike? Are you retarded? Questions, so many questions.
I see where he's coming from - the original Rogue had exactly two stats and no character classes. However, what matters is the context. Rogue was written in 1980 - a time where there was no standard for what a CRPG should look like. Actually, CRPGAddict has been doing a damn good job of documenting all the odd experiments at translating RPG gameplay to PC that were going on in that era. And then the way the genre of roguelikes has been developing ever since is towards increasing complexity - from Rogue to Moria, Nethack, ADoM etc. I mean, you have only to look at the weekly changelogs of Caves of Qud to see how crazy complex roguelike systems have become.
None of these things apply to Diablo and Diablo-clones. The genre stated by dumbing down the existing RPG/roguelike formula, and the only reason its complexity hasn't declined further over the years is because there's nowhere to decline further.
 

Metronome

Learned
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Messages
277
Yes. It's a seminal game for the entire RPG subgenre. Very insular subgenre, but RPG nevertheless. Now say me why do you think that RT clickity-clack with a dumbed down character system is a roguelike? Is Binding of Isaac or Spelunky a roguelike?
Dumbing something down does not redefine it so long as the genre's features are maintained. One of the defining features of Rogue can not be a higher level of complexity than it's predecessor. All of the simplistic RPG mechanics in Rogue are basically lifted from Dungeons and Dragons and dumbed down for the early 80's computer. Now if turn-based gameplay defines a roguelike, Binding of Issac, Spelunky, and Diablo are not roguelikes. But regardless of it's status as a roguelike, Diablo is still a RPG. Nothing that a RPG is defined by is missing in Diablo. At least so long as Rogue is a RPG.

I see where he's coming from - the original Rogue had exactly two stats and no character classes. However, what matters is the context. Rogue was written in 1980 - a time where there was no standard for what a CRPG should look like.
Defining RPGs by notoriety or progress to begin with is obviously ignoring the vast majority of them. That's why I asked the initial question. If you've read this blog you should know exactly what I am talking about. There are plenty of simple and bad RPGs, but they are still obviously RPGs.
 

V_K

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I see where he's coming from - the original Rogue had exactly two stats and no character classes. However, what matters is the context. Rogue was written in 1980 - a time where there was no standard for what a CRPG should look like.
Defining RPGs by notoriety or progress to begin with is obviously ignoring the vast majority of them. That's why I asked the initial question. If you've read this blog you should know exactly what I am talking about. There are plenty of simple and bad RPGs, but they are still obviously RPGs.
You misconstrue my point. I don't give a rat's ass about defining RPGs. What I was saying in my original post is that Diablo simplified a core RPG mechanic - character builiding - to a point of near insignificance. And this particular trait got picked in the clones and successors, leading to a surge of very shallow RPGs - i.e. a decline.
 

Ol' Willy

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Even a goddamn mongoloid would realize that "A invents new genre B" is not to blame for "Everyone else insists on genre R becoming more like genre B because A sold well."
So I'm not a mongoloid then. Diablo was a hit. A bestseller, immensely popular. And of course it affected the marked. Interplay tried to convert Fallout 1 to RT and multiplayer exactly because of the Diablo. RTwP was born because of Diablo. Larian started making moderately popular Diablo clones and now is defined as one of the biggest players on isometric RPG market.

While I don't want to argue about the merits of Diablo, the damage it has done is significant. When suits have seen that game like Diablo sells better than the game like Fallout they started to insist on making more games like Diablo and less games like Fallout. And while Diablo is not bad in itself, it's clones are and other studios following in Blizzard steps led to the pure decline.

Disco Elysium may start a similar trend. While not being a bad game, Disco is immensely popular and may spark the wave of combatless Disco-clones with average and pretentious writing trying and failing to emulate Disco itself. Clam Man 2 is already here, the possible harbinger of a new decline
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
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Messages
3,561
I feel like I'm stating the obvious :) but :
If you want to go against the Codex hivemind, join me in my Holy Crusade against Baldurp Gay series and Inbred Engine games! We will make a lot of enemies and earn a few tags, but the truth will prevail!

Nah, Baldur's Gate is one of the more consensual in general, people generally think it's decent D&D campaign and it's decent party of pregens adventuring with story choices (and romances if we're talking about Baldur's Gate 2). This exact mix is what players who're vaguely into RPGs mostly like the most and otherwise they will at least vaguely like the game for only one of the two reasons.

Codex hivemind is different though'. Compared with other places, it's composed much more of players who really loves Fallout + some old-schoolers. Then, between real-time with pause, cringy, romanceable companions, finally few dialogs and related story choices if you compare Baldur's Gate 1 compared with Fallout or Arcanum and also overall limited interactions with the world compared to the same Fallout or Arcanum there's a non-neglictible part of the place who hates these games or think there are mediocre.

Fallout is more consensual compared with Baldur's Gate inside the Codex.

Codex is Fallout lovers's place. But there are at least two other ways to explain that.

I don't know if there's a game that more than Fallout is between old-school and modern : it's single character + companions but there are not cringy companions (some would say they have their own agenda), it has a heavy story but you uncover it through' active exploration and it's a story you're making yourself and it's much more of a cool than cringeworthy story, combat is turn-based but game is not a combat-heavy D&D campaign but rather a game with a big focus in proposing alternatives to combat, the game does not have complex party building but it does have game changing (not just fire arrows vs magical fire arrows) single character building, there's some handholding compared with games with no quest log for example but nothing which would make you bang your head against a wall ...

And I mean borderline feature(s?) such as lack of control of characters during fights, different players may think it's a good thing or a bad thing but all players understand both why it's there (because game focus on character interactions with the world based on its sheet) and why it makes combat less tactical (less control).

If we focus on the comparison with Baldur's Gate, the reason why Fallout is Codex's favourite is because it's the best game focused on exploration, dialogs and other fun interactions with the world which are not dialogs. The 3 parts are important. ... The two first points, or more precisely extensive use of skill check in dialogs and choices during dialogs is why modern devs (for example CD Projekt, from something which was linked here) and likely a lot of younger players or players which don't particularly care about deep RPG systems love the game, they think that this gives the game a strong P&P feel, which the game does have. Now in my opinion it's so much more than that which gives the game a strong P&P feel, the interactive environment, turn-based combat, the small text descriptions, story you make yourself and other things most players and devs at best don't give a shit about and at worst hate, but the fact is we both like the games.
 

Ol' Willy

Arcane
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CryptRat

Every bit of love for Fallout is well deserved. BG, though, is still revered quite high here and practically a holy cow. I'm somehow aware of some oldfag members who share my sentiment about BG, but they quit, ceased to care or just said whatever should be said, allowing for the current disposition to take place.
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,561
ceased to care or just said whatever should be said, allowing for the current disposition to take place.
Well, yes, I'd rather waste my time praising games I like. Lurking I & II are the anti-Baldur's Gate, full party creation, turn-based combat (although' not has good as Baldur's Gate anyway, the bestiary, combat spell set and I'd say even the engine at all don't come close), 0 handholding and very big quest to solve with tons of notes to take and occasionnal puzzles you solve via a song or a spell you need to learn first, which generally requires some work, a story about what your characters do and not about who they are, and there's ton of text and the text is not about some companions's mood, the story is not kitsch or I am not sure how to put that. These games are as niche as it can get (based on your taste I have no idea if you would like these games), but the only reason we're posting here is so that someone who could like a game would be aware it exists, then to each his own, it's not like the forum is spammed with so many topics that you could not talk about the games you like anymore or something, there's enough place for everything.
 

Bruma Hobo

Lurker
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
2,412
CryptRat

Every bit of love for Fallout is well deserved. BG, though, is still revered quite high here and practically a holy cow. I'm somehow aware of some oldfag members who share my sentiment about BG, but they quit, ceased to care or just said whatever should be said, allowing for the current disposition to take place.
Before Pillars of Eternity, Baldur's Gate was rightfully mocked around here (and before Oblivion, its name was synonymous with decline).

:majordecline:
 

octavius

Arcane
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Messages
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Bjørgvin
fireballSeptember 10, 2020 at 4:58 AM
Congrats for attracting the attention of THE John Romero. I'm very excited about the podcast!

CalthaerSeptember 10, 2020 at 9:54 AM
It's well-deserved; the CRPG Addict is well on the way towards becoming a legend in his own right...the world's foremost expert on RPGs by an indisputable margin.

I have to agree. I mean here on the RPG Codex our greatest minds can not even agree on a definition of RPG.
:troll:
 

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