CRPG's with the best combat engine/system?

[Carlos' Bitch1]

As the title implies, tell it all, or even just give the name of the game. Which games deliver in the combat department?

Although there are many games that have given me a good feeling in this area, a few automatically stand out. I give some vent to unique and particularly good games, though there are plenty of others out there.

Natuk: the Orcish RPG by Tom Proudfoot. Up to 8 player created Orcs/Trolls/Ogre's in your team, with great battles, plenty of tactics needed to win, excellent damage system (ever had an eye popped? a hand severed?) and brilliant text description of the battle as it unfolds.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/natuk

Knights of Legend: while the game itself starts very slowly, and the 'save at an Inn only' business would be very tiring for newfags, the combat was incredibly detailed. Full range of attack options, including swing, thrust, hack, berserk and so on. Mix in defensive options such as duck, jump, parry, etc and you have quite a deep system. There are plenty of other options involved as well.
http://www.mobygames.com/game/knights-of-legend

Knights of the Chalice: AI. AI. AI. So what if a bear knows that Magicians should be a target? If you were a bear, with four opponents near you, and one had a shiny purple cloak (possibly with rather large tits sticking out of it), with a tall, shiny, pointy cap on their head with stars and moons all over it, waving around a pointy stick and loudly chanting...wouldn't that get your attention? Plenty of options, plenty of tactics, rarely beaten at what it does.

Dwarf Fortress: Haven't tried the adventure mode? Well you should. This thing will, one day, overtake the builder mode. Why start a Moria when you could be hit, repeatedly, in the left arse cheek causing some slight pain? Just hit them back! Go for the thyroid, or possibly even the gall bladder. Hit them where it hurts. Throwing vomit is a legitimate way to win.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/slaves-to ... f-fortress

There are many others that wait just below these giants, but I won't clog it up with my opinions. Front up and have a go! Let everyone know which games you feel have the best combat engines, and why. You know the rest.

 

[zeitgeist]

Jagged Alliance 2 + 1.13

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Jagged Alliance 2 + 1.13

 

[Mastermind]

Knights of Legend: while the game itself starts very slowly, and the 'save at an Inn only' business would be very tiring for newfags, the combat was incredibly detailed. Full range of attack options, including swing, thrust, hack, berserk and so on. Mix in defensive options such as duck, jump, parry, etc and you have quite a deep system. There are plenty of other options involved as well.

That doesn't sound deep at all, it sounds like Fallout with swords.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I've overlooked Natuk before now, but this has brought it to my attention. Cheers, looks like a good game; is the rest of it on par with the combat?

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Knights of Legend: while the game itself starts very slowly, and the 'save at an Inn only' business would be very tiring for newfags, the combat was incredibly detailed. Full range of attack options, including swing, thrust, hack, berserk and so on. Mix in defensive options such as duck, jump, parry, etc and you have quite a deep system. There are plenty of other options involved as well.

That doesn't sound deep at all, it sounds like Fallout with swords.

Hey Drog, thanks for stopping by! Care to talk about what you believe has the best combat mechanics of a CRPG?

 

[nomask7]

Gothic 2: NotR in the category of single-character games.

Might and Magic 6 for party games.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I've overlooked Natuk before now, but this has brought it to my attention. Cheers, looks like a good game; is the rest of it on par with the combat?

It is a one man band operation, but it has its moments. The demo is free, just make sure you grab the latest patches which you may need to stop in to the forums to find.
http://www.proudft.com/natuk.html

There are other games there, with similar combat models.

Bit disappointing that nobody is actually willing to explain why they believe their games have the best combat systems. Perhaps I should not have let everyone off the hook by suggesting they could just name a game?

 

[Mastermind]

Knights of Legend: while the game itself starts very slowly, and the 'save at an Inn only' business would be very tiring for newfags, the combat was incredibly detailed. Full range of attack options, including swing, thrust, hack, berserk and so on. Mix in defensive options such as duck, jump, parry, etc and you have quite a deep system. There are plenty of other options involved as well.

That doesn't sound deep at all, it sounds like Fallout with swords.

Hey Drog, thanks for stopping by! Care to talk about what you believe has the best combat mechanics of a CRPG?

Sure thing Stalin,

Baldur's Gate 2. I liked the strategic options magic gave me thanks to the abundance of spells. Being able to ambush people setting an ambush for me with the aid of invisibility = massive . That said, even BG2 is "deep" only compared to other rpgs because combat is so frequently dumbed down in rpgs. Compare the combat in JA2 to the combat in Fallout or the combat in Ninja Gaiden to the combat in Oblivion to get a perfect idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[Unradscorpion]

No mention of TOEE?

 

[Sceptic]

Might and Magic 6 for party games.

As much as I love MM6, I don't think it's combat engine is the best. Even 3-5 had a better combat system.

No mention of TOEE?

If I'd seen this thread earlier, I would've mentioned it.

 

[PorkaMorka]

No mention of TOEE?

TOEE combat is strictly inferior to KoTC combat, so there really isn't much point.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

No mention of TOEE?

TOEE combat is strictly inferior to KoTC combat, so there really isn't much point.

Exactly why I didn't mention it.

 

[Saxon1974]

A couple that I think have good combat...

Betrayal at Krondor

The gold box games (But they take so long they get tedious)

And of course mount & blade but thats more of an army combat sim.

 

[Yeesh]

Jagged Alliance 2 + 1.13

 

[Nukester]

Wizardry 8 had a great combat system. If only each battle didnt take so fucking long

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

No mention of TOEE?

TOEE combat is strictly inferior to KoTC combat, so there really isn't much point.

The only thing that kotc does better is it goes to level 20. Toee is more complete in what it does, not to mention the engine itself being a million times better.

Just a few places it is better are.

* Buff spells
* AI people who are stupid seem to think kotc AI is good for some reason but it's crap
* multiclassing
* Larger party
* Backstab/thief
* More character classes and races
* overlapping area effects
* simultaneous action
* arrows of slaying not used as a gimmick for every single dungeon
* dungeons are balanced, provide challenge, and make sense

Really it's just better in every way, not to mention it's great to mod for

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Wizardry 8 had a great combat system. If only each battle didnt take so fucking long

Agreed. There was probably too much filler combat, although most battles were dangerous, at least.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

No mention of TOEE?

TOEE combat is strictly inferior to KoTC combat, so there really isn't much point.

The only thing that kotc does better is it goes to level 20. Toee is more complete in what it does, not to mention the engine itself being a million times better.

Just a few places it is better are.

* Buff spells
* AI people who are stupid seem to think kotc AI is good for some reason but it's crap
* multiclassing
* Larger party
* Backstab/thief
* More character classes and races
* overlapping area effects
* simultaneous action
* arrows of slaying not used as a gimmick for every single dungeon
* dungeons are balanced, provide challenge, and make sense

Really it's just better in every way, not to mention it's great to mod for

Apart from Larger party and backstab, nothing you say really makes any sense at all/is not explained in any detail. Even with the backstab, I could point to several mechanics that KotC contain that are not present in TOEE. I won't bother however until you actually say more than: I like it more, so it is better cos it is better in every way!!!

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

No mention of TOEE?

TOEE combat is strictly inferior to KoTC combat, so there really isn't much point.

The only thing that kotc does better is it goes to level 20. Toee is more complete in what it does, not to mention the engine itself being a million times better.

Just a few places it is better are.

* Buff spells
* AI people who are stupid seem to think kotc AI is good for some reason but it's crap
* multiclassing
* Larger party
* Backstab/thief
* More character classes and races
* overlapping area effects
* simultaneous action
* arrows of slaying not used as a gimmick for every single dungeon
* dungeons are balanced, provide challenge, and make sense

Really it's just better in every way, not to mention it's great to mod for

Apart from Larger party and backstab, nothing you say really makes any sense at all/is not explained in any detail. Even with the backstab, I could point to several mechanics that KotC contain that are not present in TOEE. I won't bother however until you actually say more than: I like it more, so it is better cos it is better in every way!!!

What needs to be explained?

There's no multiclassing in kotc, cutting out a huge amount of character build options.

You can't have buff spells cast outside of combat, making buffs nearly useless, about half the spells in dnd. In toee you can run through with enlarged characters the whole time.

more characters and races...more character classes and races.

in kotc you can't have an areas silenced and plagued at the same time, or have a web and silence or you get the idea. This makes it much less useful to use these spells and creates eploits.

toee baddies act all at once if they have same initiative. You also don't sit through endless lucky unlucky lucky unlucky bullshit every time someone casts prayer. Combat can be very tedious in kotc when there are spellcasters.

moathouse is a classic starter dungeon, much better than the ridiculous starter dungeon in kotc.

So yeah, basically you are a moron.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

What needs to be explained?
There's no multiclassing in kotc, cutting out a huge amount of character build options.

That has nothing to do with the combat system.

You can't have buff spells cast outside of combat, making buffs nearly useless, about half the spells in dnd. In toee you can run through with enlarged characters the whole time.

Awesome! That sounds like it leads to some seriously challenging combat encounters! Always running around with Stoneskin, Protection from Elements, Death Ward, AC buffs, Saving throw buffs up etc while the poor NPCs don't get that advantage. Sounds like something someone like you would find great.

more characters and races...more character classes and races.

Do you know what a combat system is, or do you really need even the most basic things explained to you?

in kotc you can't have an areas silenced and plagued at the same time, or have a web and silence or you get the idea. This makes it much less useful to use these spells and creates eploits.

You can't cast an AoE spell into an area already affected by another AoE spell in KotC, which is lame. One point for ToEE.

toee baddies act all at once if they have same initiative. You also don't sit through endless lucky unlucky lucky unlucky bullshit every time someone casts prayer. Combat can be very tedious in kotc when there are spellcasters.

The pacing in kotC is better than in most other RPGs which is a big part of its appeal. Only because *unlucky* pops up a couple of times the combat doesn't get tedious. That's quite an exaggeration, although I'm sure that no one would lament the removal of those status pop-ups for every single creature. I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention ToEE's tedious bugbear encounters, room after room after room. Ah I see, status pop-ups are more significant.

moathouse is a classic starter dungeon, much better than the ridiculous starter dungeon in kotc.

The "starter dungeon" in KotC is the village they send you to, not the cave. Deeper into the cave are babaus, mummies, a lvl30 vrock. Those encounters aren't there for lvl4 parties. The cave is a dungeon where you return to as soon as you feel you're up to the task. I'm not surprised you didn't figure that yet.

So yeah, basically you are a moron.

Predictable, a dipshit featuring an IQ of 3 meters country road absolutely has to use every opportunity to call others morons, if for nothing else than distraction purposes.

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

What needs to be explained?
There's no multiclassing in kotc, cutting out a huge amount of character build options.

That has nothing to do with the combat system.

You can't have buff spells cast outside of combat, making buffs nearly useless, about half the spells in dnd. In toee you can run through with enlarged characters the whole time.

Awesome! That sounds like it leads to some seriously challenging combat encounters! Always running around with Stoneskin, Protection from Elements, Death Ward, AC buffs, Saving throw buffs up etc while the poor NPCs don't get that advantage. Sounds like something someone like you would find great.

more characters and races...more character classes and races.

Do you know what a combat system is, or do you really need even the most basic things explained to you?

in kotc you can't have an areas silenced and plagued at the same time, or have a web and silence or you get the idea. This makes it much less useful to use these spells and creates eploits.

You can't cast an AoE spell into an area already affected by another AoE spell in KotC, which is lame. One point for ToEE.

toee baddies act all at once if they have same initiative. You also don't sit through endless lucky unlucky lucky unlucky bullshit every time someone casts prayer. Combat can be very tedious in kotc when there are spellcasters.

The pacing in kotC is better than in most other RPGs which is a big part of its appeal. Only because *unlucky* pops up a couple of times the combat doesn't get tedious. That's quite an exaggeration, although I'm sure that no one would lament the removal of those status pop-ups for every single creature. I'm a bit surprised you didn't mention ToEE's tedious bugbear encounters, room after room after room. Ah I see, status pop-ups are more significant.

moathouse is a classic starter dungeon, much better than the ridiculous starter dungeon in kotc.

The "starter dungeon" in KotC is the village they send you to, not the cave. Deeper into the cave are babaus, mummies, a lvl30 vrock. Those encounters aren't there for lvl4 parties. The cave is a dungeon where you return to as soon as you feel you're up to the task. I'm not surprised you didn't figure that yet.

So yeah, basically you are a moron.

Predictable, a dipshit featuring an IQ of 3 meters country road absolutely has to use every opportunity to call others morons, if for nothing else than distraction purposes.

So since you can't respond without chopping up my text like a normal person, I will break down your supposed points more logically. That is in a logical fashion you are incapable of employing yourself so I must employ for you to make some sense of your nonsense.

Here is what you said.

1. Multiclassing is nothing to do with combat system.
2. Gimping half the spells in the game is a GOOD thing.
3. The character classes and races have NOTHING to do with a combat system.
4. concede one somewhat weak point.
5. Irrelevant bullshit, but again combat system as you so glaringly pointed out, is the issue. Actually it's combat engine but it's pretty fucking ironic to hear you say I don't know what a combat system is. I found nothing tedious in toee, easy fights go very quick, and you accuse me of not talking about the right thing but you try to flail around against toee anyway.
6. Some arguable shit, I guess, but since the leader says 'level at the caves!' and every fight but one is incredibly easy there I'm thinking it's just bad dungeon design. You are supposed to use the arrows of animal slaying on them I guess, which is ok maybe once in a game but they use the device everywhere and it should never be there with a fight you otherwise couldn't reasonably do.
7. He who smelt it dealt it.



So really, do any of these need a response? Was there one point made that even makes sense? If you are that clueless, I can never explain to you what makes good and bad combat system or engine, but I assume to anyone with half a brain throwing out lots of rules and options and simplifying others to make them more easier doesn't make for a better combat system or engine.

I never got challenged by kotc where it made sense, but then there is one or two illogically difficult encounters placed in stupid locations. It makes less sense than any rpg game I have ever played. At least in old wizardries though arbitrarily punishing you had concepts like dungeons get harder lower/further in. Concepts like some kind of balance. Concepts like limiting access to things like mithril and adamantium so people can't craft adamantine items at first level, in the middle of combat if they want.

So who's moron now? Yes, it was you all along.

I especially love the attitude here, people don't call someone a moron due to them acting like a jackass and saying stupid shit. People do that because they are envious or insecure, or a crazy stalker who got pissed off five years ago and has made hundreds of internet accounts to torment you. That's what I like to call crazy talk. You/VD (I assume you are the same person, who spawned a new identity to distance yourself from rpgcodex so your self promotion is less obvious, and you are eerily similar in your massive mental retardation so if people like you come in pairs ITZ is on the way) might want to seek some psychiatric help.

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

Oh, a point I did not mention to blackadder about AI. I played through the whole kotc just to be extra spiteful about it later, and in the final battle the duke tries to grapple a red dragon.

Before that the lich walks up to my 18 level fighter who can dish out 200-400hp of melee damage per round for some reason.

In toee, the enemies did things like grapple, counterspell, ready for approach, and wait for spell casting AND THEY DID IT WHEN IT MADE SENSE. In kotc they just do random weird shit all the time.

Also, there is no reach in kotc, which makes a huge difference in the combat. Also, spell interruption works in popamole bullshit fashion that makes readying for spell pointless anyway.

In short, I have to say anyone who's played both but thinks kotc does a better job is not just a moron but a, well, I guess a new word needs to be coined. Codexian?

Or just plain liar, I suspect. Indie indie indie! Let's beat the drum on the thing we have a vested monetary interest in promoting. It's astounding it inspires such rage to point out obvious kotc flaws.

I did like the game, good job for an indie and worth the money. But better combat engine than toee? Like I said, a new super moron word needs to be coined for that.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

1. Multiclassing is nothing to do with combat system.

It concerns the character system.

2. Gimping half the spells in the game is a GOOD thing.

I didn't say it's a good thing. It might have been too subtle for you, but KotC doesn't allow for prebuffing to provide equal terms for the party as well as the enemies. It would also be possible to have the enemies fully buffed at all times, like your party could buff themselves, to achieve the same fair terms. But that would only lead to mutual dispelling attempts early in combat, so why not skip this altogether? Especially since the dispelling rules in KotC are pretty lame, depending on the will saves of the target, making the dispelling of high level enemies, outsiders or dragons, rather unlikely. As for *half the spells*, firstly the buffs in KotC aren't half the spellbook, it's basically only Mass Pro Evil ,Haste and later Mass Death Ward which are essential and you can cast them inside combat just fine, secondly I remember very well that for many DnD games where pre-buffing is necessary usually a whiner-crowd shows up lamenting the fact that they have to cast 10 buffing spells on all party members again and again and again, leading to such inventions like the rod of pre-buffing etc.

3. The character classes and races have NOTHING to do with a combat system.

Character classes, races primarily concern the character system.

5. Irrelevant bullshit, but again combat system as you so glaringly pointed out, is the issue. Actually it's combat engine but it's pretty fucking ironic to hear you say I don't know what a combat system is. I found nothing tedious in toee, easy fights go very quick, and you accuse me of not talking about the right thing but you try to flail around against toee anyway.

Easy fights in KotC go very quickly too. The difference is the encounter design is superior in kotC. There's more than just bugbears, bugbears, gnolls, gnolls, elite bugbears, elite gnolls and a few more bugbears thrown in for variety. Additionally, with the exception of a handful encounters (and only if you do those encounters as early as they become available) the combat in ToEE is a cakewalk compared to KotC.
As for *flail against ToEE*, that's nonsense. I love ToEE.

6. Some arguable shit, I guess, but since the leader says 'level at the caves!' and every fight but one is incredibly easy there I'm thinking it's just bad dungeon design. You are supposed to use the arrows of animal slaying on them I guess, which is ok maybe once in a game but they use the device everywhere and it should never be there with a fight you otherwise couldn't reasonably do.

I never used arrows of slaying for anything except for golems during the endfight because Golems don't have very high fort saves, and that just because my knight didn't have anything better to do. So we can conclude that slaying arrows aren't required to win ANY fight in the game. Especially since powerful opponents usually have very high saves, making attempts to kill them with slaying arrows a reload-fest until they roll a 1. Which is silly, so I don't do that anyways.
Since all the fights in the cave were INCREDIBLY easy for you, I wonder how the fight vs the spider queen could suddenly be impossible.

7. He who smelt it dealt it, moron.

fixed

I especially love the attitude here, people don't call someone a moron due to them acting like a jackass and saying stupid shit. People do that because they are envious or insecure, or a crazy stalker who got pissed off five years ago and has made hundreds of internet accounts to torment you. That's what I like to call crazy talk. You/VD (I assume you are the same person, who spawned a new identity to distance yourself from rpgcodex so your self promotion is less obvious, and you are eerily similar in your massive mental retardation so if people like you come in pairs ITZ is on the way) might want to seek some psychiatric help.

Hilarious.

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The irony.

 

[MadnessOfTheKwa]

Wow, if I were you I would hang myself now.

I also want to underline I had a nice post to start with, then blackadder comes off like the smarmy jackass/troll that he is and I call him on it.

So, it's not so much me making a fool of both of you due to vendetta, both of you acting like jackasses and making fools of yourselves.