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cRPGs with useful non-combat skills

Kliwer

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Oct 19, 2018
Messages
215
Inspired by another thread on this forum (https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/thieves-dont-let-them-get-away-with-it.202/page-3), I would like to create a list of cRPGs in which non-combat skills play a vital role.

Criteria:
- The game mechanics must include non-combat skills;
- There must be at least a few of these non-combat skills. Ideally, one character/team cannot have all of them during one game.
- Non-combat skills must play an important role in the game. This very general criterion can be understood as:
a) non-combat skills allow for alternative quest solutions (not worse or even better than combat);
b) certain non-combat skills allow access to new content (quests, locations, loot etc.);
c) the lack of certain non-combat skills makes the game much more difficult or impossible to finish;
d) having/not having certain non-combat skills significantly changes the nature of the game.

When choosing, you should also consider the following factors:
- The use of non-combat skills should not be just a flavor;
- Alternative quest solutions that don't depend on skills don't count;
- Non-combat spells can count;
- Pure attribute checks are a bit different thing and doesn't really count.

I arbitrarily divide the mentioned games into three categories:
a) GOLD - high impact. Non-combat skills are practically essential in the game.
b) SILVER - moderate impact. Non-combat skills are used a lot, but you can manage without them.
c) BROWN (ye, brown, not bronze). Rejected. Games only seemingly meeting the criteria.

Please - spend a few words to justify your opinions and polemics with the opinions of others. Don't shoot your title lists without justification.

EDIT: Upon reflection, I think that one more distinction needs to be added to the list:
a) player's initiative (PI)
b) developer initiative (DI)

When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the developer (DI), there is no system behind these skills. The player simply has the possibility to select an option from a list from time to time. Example: the Speech skill in Fallout can only be used when the creators anticipated it (selecting the appropriate dialogue line).

When non-combat skills are used on the initiative of the player (PI) - the player has the option to activate the skills at any time, or based on a systematic system. Example: Persuasion in Morrowin/Oblivion can be used on any character at any time.

Of course, many games have both. For example, pickpocketing in most games (like in BG) can be "used" at any time on any character. However, the point is to define the dominant method.

To start with something:


GOLD:
- Realms of Arkania 1-2 (possibly 3, I didn't play - could someone comment this?).
The only games I know where non-combat skills are essential and as important as combat skills. These games have a huge amount of non-combat skills. It is true that only about 30% of them really have some meaning and are used often. Survival skills (treat diseases, herb lore etc.) are essential to keep your team alive. Exploration skills (perception, danger sense, lockpicking) are very important in exploring dungeons. Skills related to obtaining money (pickpocketing, haggle, to a lesser extent, e.g. dancing) play an important role in the economy of the game. Some spells are used in plot events, but usually only in single cases (removing the poltergeist, disguising some characters in some locations). Social skills (streetwise, human nature etc.) are sometimes used in random encounters, mainly as a flavor.
[mostly PI]

SILVER:
- Arcanum.
On the one hand, the game is great in this respect. On the other - disappointing. Persuasion plays the biggest role in alternative quests solutions. Thieving skills can also influence our approach to quests (plus they unlock some special content). Many abilities that should be important are practically never used (healing, gambling, repair). You can almost never use spells as a quest solution, as well as tech skills (the game world does react to our preference for magic/technology - but these are mostly minor flavors.)
[DI, but also some PI]

- Fallout 1-2.
Non-combat skills are used quite often, although less often than we would like. As in Arcanum - persuasion reigns. I once played a character who had developed scientific and medical skills - and I didn't see many new possibilities versus the typical small-guns + persuasion build.
[DI, but also some minor PI]

- Drakensang: River of Time
Heir to the Realms of Arkania. There are many non-combat skills, and they also play a role in quests (mainly social skills). Pickpocketing is useful (it gives a lot of money), although it has no story use. Other skills have only apparent or minimal utility. Crafting is actually an element of the combat system, and it is supported by as many as 6 skills (alchemy, bowyery, blacksmithing; + animal lore, herbal lore and survival, which only provide crafting ingredients). It looks better on paper than it actually is.
[only DI]

- Might and Magic 2-5
They are on the list only due to huge impact of exploration skills (mountaineer, swimming etc.) and spells (teleportation, jump, levitation etc.). Maybe it’s not much, but it makes exploration aspect of this games unique and the best in this genre. In fact those exploration skills and spells are essential for gameplay, but are also too one-dimensional to qualify for GOLD category.
[PI]

BROWN:
- Gothic 1-2.
Yes, I love these games. They offer us some alternative paths. But neither of them pertains to skills. All of our character's skills relate to combat, crafting (for me it's part of the combat system) or gaining money (all hunting abilities). Only thieving abilities (in G2) unlock small additional content (quests, loot), but this is not enough.

-Baldur's Gate 1.
You can use the Charm spell on almost any character for a bit of flavor. Thieving skills have a niche use in quests (pickpocketing). Thieves' abilities give you access to several side quests (thieves guild). All this, however, has a negligible impact on the gameplay. There is even less of this in BG2.


So please - add your suggestions. And argue.
 
Last edited:
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Codex Year of the Donut
- Non-combat spells can count;
Charm in Baldur's Gate.
Essentially every NPC(and most named enemies) have charmed dialogue. Either giving you gifts, unlocking hidden dialogue, etc.,
Mostly missing from BG2.

Arcanum has speak with undead, but it's really underdeveloped.
Divinity 2 lets you mindread(which costs XP) during dialogue.
 

Kliwer

Savant
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
215
Charm in Baldur's Gate.
Essentially every NPC(and most named enemies) have charmed dialogue. Either giving you gifts, unlocking hidden dialogue, etc.,

Thanks for this statement. However, I think that these uses of one spell are not enough. To qualify, the game must have at least a few non-combat skills that are relevant. Plus the Charm spell in BG1 has marginal utility.

Divinity 2 lets you mindread(which costs XP) during dialogue.

Again - it's a cool mechanic, but only one. In addition, it is practically independent of the skill points distribution (yes, we can improve it, making it cost us less XP, but that's not enough). Similar to, for example, witcher senses in Witcher 3 - they are independent of our character development.
 

Marat

Arcane
Wumao
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SPACE WRECK doesn't quite fulfil all of your criteria, but it really did make me feel like non-combat skills are a significant part of the gameplay. Playing a high Science gadgeteer felt really cool, like you're not some terminator, with laser gun flavour, but an actual nerd that has to cleverly make use of resources available to him to succeed.
 

Kliwer

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Messages
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SPACE WRECK doesn't quite fulfil all of your criteria, but it really did make me feel like non-combat skills are a significant part of the gameplay. Playing a high Science gadgeteer felt really cool, like you're not some terminator, with laser gun flavour, but an actual nerd that has to cleverly make use of resources available to him to succeed.

I don't know this game, but I will add it to the list as per your recommendation. In which category: GOLD or SILVER?

gorasul gives you eyes of a dragon, allowing to see very far

I know this game by heart; it certainly does not qualify :)
 

lukaszek

the determinator
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underrail - all subterfuge stuff is noncombat, in many cases allows you to skip fighting. Due to oddity nature, you never feel that skipping it is an issue. Crafting skills open up cool interactions, not just improving your combat capabilities. Even mercantile opens up possibilities outside of getting cool equipment.
Then there are attributes that open passages, like PER and AGI. STR to force open jammed doors etc. In a way PER plays spot/search role, while AGI is acrobatics from dnd perspective.
Few feats give bonus dialogue options too.
Play your cards right and in the end there will be just 2 combat encounters forced on you
 

Dorateen

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GRIMOIRE

The list of utility spells is extensive, and there are numerous out of combat skills that are essential such as climbing and swimming. The game is primarily about exploration and the player has many tools available to assist in progressing through the adventure, including spiderclimb and featherfall and the all important Detect Secrets. There are also spells like Mindread that can be used to extract vital information from NPCs. The scribe skill is needed for characters to learn new spells from books.
 

Darth Canoli

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Wizardry 8 (PI, silver)

Not just spells, there is some adventure elements here and there, guessing some dialog keywords to advance the plot, for example, or tying two vines together to repair a bridge or the main plot would get stuck.
Stealth (chameleon) to avoid roaming monsters, divine traps and lock and trap skills because most important chests are trapped, which is a way better game design than traps on every other floor.
You can also rob shopkeepers blind, practice alchemy to make money, discover secrets (ranger or detect secrets).
Portals for traveling purpose, engineering to combine items, and not just gadgets.
There's also charm/mind read NPC, it's minor but overall, i think it deserves more than a bronze medal, mostly because of the small adventuring parts and the keywords, even if it's technically neither skills not spells.
Also, most of it are triggered by the player, which leads me to rate it silver.


KotC 2 (DI, minor)

Every class has some attached skills which are useful to detect traps and ambushes, summon some allies, persuade or intimidate NPC, get through some areas (forge, goblins arena) get the initiative


Might & Magic VI & VII (PI)

Extensive use of jump spell in dungeons (i liked teleport from earlier M&M better, still, better than nothing), feather weight as well, fly outside is sometimes useful to reach some NPC, invisibility in some areas or for some peaceful quest resolutions.
Mostly, you'll use them to navigate dungeons or explore.
I don't think you can complete the games without using jump and fly, possibly feather weight as well.


ToEE (DI)

A lot of skill checks for alternate quest resolutions, some even allowing you to recruit some no so secret anymore companions, even some very high skill checks (intimidation, for example during the fire temple quest)
You could have all the skills on multiple chars and if you know the game extremely well, could use them on the right NPC quests but it'd be busywork (playing with previous notes or forcing yourself to remember everything) or playing with a walkthrough, otherwise, you just can't.
 

FriendlyMerchant

Guest
Kenshi
Kingdom Come

A short justification please. And to which category?

Those are kind of fuzzy whether they go in Silver or Gold. In Kenshi, you could play the game without using many of the non-combat skills though you miss out on a lot of things you can do if you don't use the non-combat skills. In Kingdom Come, you get a lot in the experience from utilizing the non-combat skills like learning how to read. In my opinion, they should go into Gold.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall has centaurian, climbing, daedric, dragonish, etiquette, giantish, harpy, impish, jumping, lock-picking, mercantile, nymph, orcish, pickpocket, running, spriggan, stealth, streetwise, and swimming skills, as well as a variety of utility spells related to the six magic skills. These allow for alternative quest solutions and access to additional content.

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has acrobatics, athletics, enchant, mercantile, security, sneak, and speechcraft skills, as well as a variety of utility spells related to the six magic skills. These allow for alternative quest solutions and access to additional content, especially by raising NPC disposition via persuasion (speechcraft) or magic.

Both games should fall into the Gold category, in that non-combat skills collectively are almost essential to playing the game, although a focus on quests could reduce this to Silver. :M
 

JamesDixon

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut
I noticed a severe lack of Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. Almost every conversation has a persuasion option that utilizes intimidation, bluff, or persuasion skills. In most cases it increases the amount of gold and items from turning in quests. In other uses it's to gain access to areas with an alternate route. For example, in the Blacklake district of Neverwinter in the first game there is a woman named Milly. You talk to her and get a persuasion option. If you succeed in your persuasion check you find out that she and the big bad of the district were former lovers. Since the big bad is a mage he put in a portal from his mansion to Milly's house so they could see each other in secret. The big bad's dad didn't like the fact that Milly was a cleaning girl and thought his son deserved better.

I didn't even touch upon the thousands of modules made in the Aurora Toolset that allows modders to utilize those skills as well.
 

Funposter

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The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall has centaurian, climbing, daedric, dragonish, etiquette, giantish, harpy, impish, jumping, lock-picking, mercantile, nymph, orcish, pickpocket, running, spriggan, stealth, streetwise, and swimming skills, as well as a variety of utility spells related to the six magic skills. These allow for alternative quest solutions and access to additional content.

The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has acrobatics, athletics, enchant, mercantile, security, sneak, and speechcraft skills, as well as a variety of utility spells related to the six magic skills. These allow for alternative quest solutions and access to additional content, especially by raising NPC disposition via persuasion (speechcraft) or magic.

Both games should fall into the Gold category, in that non-combat skills collectively are almost essential to playing the game, although a focus on quests could reduce this to Silver. :M

They're both definitely in a weird position, especially because of utility magic. Playing Daggerfall without Recall, Water Walking/Breathing, Levitation, Slowfall etc. would be possible but also completely miserable. The language skills aren't all that useful since all they do is give you a chance of pacifying certain enemy types. I wouldn't say that they really give you the chance for alternative quest solutions, since pretty much every quest in Daggerfall amounts to "go here and kill this thing" or "go here and find this item". Etiquette and Streetwise are nice for getting information out of townsfolk and also have the benefit of you being able to talk your way out of crimes, but again, they're never particularly relevant to finishing quests or finding alternative solutions.

Morrowind is simultaneously better and worse in this regard. The ability to persuade NPCs is vital to certain quests, since while many of them can be completed with violence, there are actually a few which prohibit you from doing so. However, Morrowind has far more consumables and magical items easily available to the player which allow them to circumvent just about any skill. Persuading an NPC who hates your guts is still possible just by purchasing a basic Charm scroll and getting some Telvanni Bug Musk. Navigation of ruins or wizard towers that require Levitation doesn't necessitate the Alteration skill, due to the availability of potions, scrolls and enchanted items. Athletics is famously circumvented by a pair of boots and a 'Resist Magicka 100 pts for 1 second" spell. But if it comes down to the magical effects rather than the skills that govern them, Morrowind is definitely ahead of just about every game out there. Jump, Slowfall, Levitation, Fortify Attribute, Invisibility, Charm, Mark, Recall, Lock and Open, Divine and Almsivi Intervention, Constant Effect Restore Health/Fatigue are all spell effects/enchantments that allow you to essentially circumvent any challenge that the game puts in front of you if you're creative enough and give you access to loads of extra side content and goodies.
 

Tsubutai

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Age of Decadence probably qualifies for gold - there are multiple distinct game-spanning story arcs and questlines that can only be resolved using non-combat skills, and it is perfectly possible to complete the game without using violence at all. You can also slaughter your way across the game if you want, but that will give you a very different set of quests and outcomes.

Obviously Disco Elysium is a beast all unto itself in this respect.
 

Nortar

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Disco Elysium

I suspect why no one has mentioned it yet, but "what is an rpg" controversies aside, the game fits the bill to the letter.
The game is all about skills and all skills are non-combat skills!
Rating: Tequila Sunset Gold.

Divinity 2: Ego Draconis

Mind-reading skill is one of the most interesting and uncommon mechanics I've seen.
The character can read the mind of any NPC (even animals, coz Larian) but using it costs XP.
Mind-reading can provide info, often not obtainable by other means, and even iirc give/solve quests.
Rating: Silver.

Encased

Meets all the a-d criteria.
The skills are plentiful, useful and provide different solutions for quests.
Rating: Gold.

Edit: Oh, I've missed that Rusty has already mentioned Divinity 2.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The expeditions series ought be a silver at least. They don't exactly contribute alternate solutions if I recall correctly, but you do need them to ensure your party can actually camp and travel.
 

Fluent

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Hey guys. :) Surprised no one mentioned the Drakensang series. There are plenty of non-combat skills to develop, probably lands in the Gold category. There's negative conditions skills too, such as Claustrophobia and Fear Of Undead. Great games, those! :) (Edit - Those negative skills are in Realms Of Arkania - Blade Of Destiny, not Drakensang. My mistake. But ROA - BOD is another RPG with a bunch of non-combat stuff that also happens to be a very good game!)
 
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Marat

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I don't know this game, but I will add it to the list as per your recommendation. In which category: GOLD or SILVER?
Cautiously SILVER, right next to Arcanum. The game hasn't released yet, but there is a very good demo available on Steam as well as a thread on Codex.
 

Darth Canoli

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Age of Decadence probably qualifies for gold - there are multiple distinct game-spanning story arcs and questlines that can only be resolved using non-combat skills, and it is perfectly possible to complete the game without using violence at all. You can also slaughter your way across the game if you want, but that will give you a very different set of quests and outcomes.

Sure, using non-combat skills is essential for non-combat builds but they're not for combat builds so you could play without using non-combat skills at all and they're all at the dev's initiative and not at the player's initiative which leads me to think it'd fit in the silver category.


Hey guys. :) Surprised no one mentioned the Drakensang series. There are plenty of non-combat skills to develop, probably lands in the Gold category. There's negative conditions skills too, such as Claustrophobia and Fear Of Undead. Great games, those! :) (Edit - Those negative skills are in Realms Of Arkania - Blade Of Destiny, not Drakensang. My mistake. But ROA - BOD is another RPG with a bunch of non-combat stuff that also happens to be a very good game!)

I like TRoT, still, i don't remember non-combat skills and spells being essential, even if there is some interesting mechanism like few high pickpocket targets you can recognize because of their clothes quality.
Bronze or cautious silver, if you ask me.


a) GOLD - high impact. Non-combat skills are practically essential in the game.
 

NJClaw

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Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Pathfinder: Kingmaker?

Many items are locked behind various types of skill checks (mostly Trickery and Perception, but also Athletics and Mobility). Dialogues and quests can often branch out and offer different outcomes depending on your Perception, Persuasion, and Knowledge/Lore (Arcana, Nature, Religion, and World) skills. These different outcomes go from having to face fewer enemies in the next encounter to actually impacting boss fights. IIRC, there are also secret endings locked behind very difficult skill checks.

It definitely requires no initiative from the player (during exploration skill checks are automatic, while during dialogue and interactions you get different lines), but the game is full of checks with a noticeable impact. For example, before fighting one of the first bosses, you can debuff him poisoning his wine with a successful Lore (Nature) check. In that same encounter, you can tame a beast to fight for you with another Lore (Nature) check and convince some of the enemies to flee from you with Persuasion. Sadly, the number of skills is fairly limited and with a party of 6 characters you can easily max all of them (some checks require you to really maximize your bonuses, though).

I still haven't even finished it, but I'd say that Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous will probably be the same. At the beginning of the game you have to siege a city and can climb walls and buildings with Athletics and Mobility checks to avoid fighting waves of enemies at the city's doors.
 
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KateMicucci

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Example: Persuasion in Morrowin/Oblivion can be used on any character at any time.
Ok but it doesn't do anything unless the character needs their attitude at a certain value for a quest so its the same thing as speech tag it just takes longer.
 

buffalo bill

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Cataclysm DDA is probably the best possible example of non-combat skills implemented organically
NEO scavenger is pretty good too

I'd count the quest for glory series, but the various non-combat skills and spells are used in specific locations/events, and it feels more like an adventure game

I guess caves of qud and infra arcana also, but these abilities generally help with combat somehow or help avoid combat (e.g. stealth or teleportation in infra arcana, cooking/crafting/charming/wormhole-creating/sliming/gassing/holographic-projecting etc. in caves of qud)
 

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