Game News Cyclopean Canceled

[mondblut]

They aren't comparable at all. Vogel might as well have made only 2 or 3 games because a lot of them seem to be rehashed versions of older things

2 or 20, point being, he did made them.

Dominions, don't make me laugh.

It's quite different today to develop a 3D indie RPG

Don't bite what you can't chew, they say?

When the dev feels like there ain't any air blowing in his sails, he will obviously lose confidence in the project and give up.

Now, *this* is perfectly understandable.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If that's the case, it would certainly make a lot of people feel better if he made another post saying the game was not "cancelled" but "on hold." Would definitely put my mind at rest.

Is there a difference?

Of course there is, what kind of a retarded question is that? "On hold" means just that, it will be revisted at a later time; while "cancelled" means it's never coming back. All the difference in the world.

On hold is usually a fancy way of saying "the game is no longer in development". If memory serves me right, very few games that were put on hold, like Van Buren and Jefferson, for example, have managed to leave this state.

So it's not the same thing at all. You're guaranteed a team eventually...

Eventually would be the key word here. First, AoD isn't done yet and the release date isn't announced. Second, AoD may sell fuck all or less, in which case, there won't be any team.

I think it would be better to continue this conversation after AoD is out.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Fair enough. It just sounds to me like Scott wouldn't be on board even if those two conditions are met. Which would be a shame.

I personally think AOD will exceed expectations. There's definitely a market for it. Pretty sure most if not all of the posters here will buy it, and then there's no telling how many people who lurk on this site as well, and those who visit for news. Also there's that poll that they did on RPGWatch (I think) where AOD got second place on most anticipated rpg next to Diablo 3. Not too bad, I must say. But I guess it's always a good thing to be cautious.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Because it's that easy, right?

Yes, when you're willing to invest into your pet project.

Bullshit.

Finding good people is never, ever easy, even if you are willing to pay proper salaries. The company I work for hires a lot of people every year. Only 1 out of 10 is motivated enough and dedicated enough to put in an honest effort into a job who's getting paid good money for.

Finding people to work on some online projects is 10 times harder, even if you're willing to invest something. The list of issues is miles long.

Modders are such modders, indeed.

It wasn't that funny the first you said it.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

As for Vogel, the man is a machine. Even with a completed engine and working full time, it would require enormous discipline to make an area per day, until your game is done. Most people even if they work hard, give in to perfectionism.

I believe it's called professionalism. He just treats it as his job. And he gets his job done like any reasonable worker.

 

[Vidder]

I hoped that AoD would be shipped by now and we would be able to help, but unfortunately the game isn't ready yet.

old:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5871;image

new:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5873;image

Obviously...


On Cyclopean: You have lots of text, and a very good graphic artist. Why not use that and do some kind of interactive graphical story. Maybe a playable rpg book even. You know with some rpg stats, choices, die roles, but gameplay wise very simple.

 

[Talby]

Top secret inside scoop: I spoke to one of the people who worked on Cyclopean, and according to them Scott was a talented writer, but a poor director who was very difficult to work with and made a lot of unreasonable demands.

Now the game is cancelled or "on hold," due to lack of a team. Read into that what you will.

 

[Davaris]

Top secret inside scoop: I spoke to one of the people who worked on Cyclopean, and according to them Scott was a talented writer, but a poor director who was very difficult to work with and made a lot of unreasonable demands.

Now the game is cancelled or "on hold," due to lack of a team. Read into that what you will.

Oh here we go... Once people go down that road, it turns into a he said, she said and things get ugly real fast. Its fun for the gossips, but is destructive for people's careers. I hope someone explains this to both sides.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I hoped that AoD would be shipped by now and we would be able to help, but unfortunately the game isn't ready yet.

old:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5871;image

new:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5873;image

Obviously...

Good work. Taking one single image and showing how it hasn't changed is a sure way to show that no work is being done.

 

[Vidder]

I hoped that AoD would be shipped by now and we would be able to help, but unfortunately the game isn't ready yet.

old:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5871;image

new:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1672.0;attach=5873;image

Obviously...

Good work. Taking one single image and showing how it hasn't changed is a sure way to show that no work is being done.

No, the thing i wanted to note is, that such small improvements doesn´t seem to be worth pushing the release date further and further. Of course i know that this isn´t the whole picture. Excuse my exaggeration...

 

[Forest Dweller]

It's not an exaggeration so much as a blatant omission of certain key elements. Like not being a douche.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I personally think AOD will exceed expectations. There's definitely a market for it. Pretty sure most if not all of the posters here will buy it, and then there's no telling how many people who lurk on this site as well, and those who visit for news. Also there's that poll that they did on RPGWatch (I think) where AOD got second place on most anticipated rpg next to Diablo 3. Not too bad, I must say. But I guess it's always a good thing to be cautious.

Codex and Watch posters/lurkers, you mean like all 500 of them? Looks as if VD is going to be very rich.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Maybe DU needs to post that site visitation picture again in order to jog your memory.

 

[mondblut]

Bullshit.

Finding good people is never, ever easy, even if you are willing to pay proper salaries. The company I work for hires a lot of people every year. Only 1 out of 10 is motivated enough and dedicated enough to put in an honest effort into a job who's getting paid good money for.

Yet, I don't know of any professional game project that folded due to unability to find employees. Worst case scenario is that project ends up less than stellar due to subpar execution, or eats up more investments than it could possibly recoup.

Finding people to work on some online projects is 10 times harder, even if you're willing to invest something. The list of issues is miles long.

Perhaps that's because "online projects" are a failure by nature? If you are not living in the middle of Sahara, you would be better off hiring people closer to home, not hounding random forums for "volunteers".

 

[Davaris]

Perhaps that's because "online projects" are a failure by nature? If you are not living in the middle of Sahara, you would be better off hiring people closer to home, not hounding random forums for "volunteers".

If you don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend, you have no other choice, other than learning all three skills and then turning out something that is mediocre at best.

As for these kinds of projects, no one should do any art or coding, until the design docs are fully complete. A designer should complete the design and then go away and let the programmers and artists do their job. If they don't meet the milestones, then the designer can take his work elsewhere. Far less dramas that way.

 

[mondblut]

If you don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend, you have no other choice, other than learning all three skills and then turning out something that is mediocre at best.

If you don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend and don't possess "all three skills" yourself, you shouldn't waste the people's time with "hai forum let's make the bestest RPG evar I have lotsa great ideas somebody pls code for me".

 

[Archibald]

Codex and Watch posters/lurkers, you mean like all 500 of them? Looks as if VD is going to be very rich.

I bet it`ll cost like $300

 

[Davaris]

If you don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend and don't possess "all three skills" yourself, you shouldn't waste the people's time with "hai forum let's make the bestest RPG evar I have lotsa great ideas somebody pls code for me".

In your opinion it shouldn't be done that way. VD had a different opinion and it has created Age of Decadence. Unfortunately Cyclopean didn't pan out.


As for other possibilities, he could fiance his games through donations, per milestone and release it as he goes. I'm sure that has already been discussed here a lot.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

let's assume 50.000$ per year per person for such a project to be worth your while, and let's assume they have 5 full team members (nick, vd, oscar and some more bros I don't remember who contributed a bit like portraits, music etc), that's 50.000 x 5 = 250.000$ x 5 years = 1.250000 $.
So if the game costs 25$, they need to sell 50.000 copies. Oh well, that's far less than Alphaturd sold and that game tanked, so yeah they can make it!
Let's see if all the bots/search engine crawlers Dicksmoker mentioned earlier will come up with 25 bucks. Or all the filthy pirates on this site for that matter.

 

[Davaris]

So if the game costs 25$, they need to sell 50.000 copies.

Its not about the money, its about the art!

All business make a loss at first. If the game sells well, it will lead to bigger and better things. If it tanks and the group breaks up, the people involved have learned marketable skills and have proven they can work in a team. And so far I haven't heard of anyone getting paid 50 grand PA to learn.

I'm sure everyone involved knows what they are getting into by now and no one would work on it voluntarily, if they weren't enjoying it.

Anyway, I'm going to stop defending these guys now. They can take care of themselves.

 

[Lesifoere]

So if the game costs 25$, they need to sell 50.000 copies.

Its not about the money, its about the art!

All business make a loss at first. If the game sells well, it will lead to bigger and better things.

This is actually true: when you're new to the game (in the sense of releasing your product, or opening your whatever), you're going to make a loss. The only difference is how much you can minimize that loss.

The Witcher was expected to make a loss/barely break even, IIRC.

 

[Achilles]

Codex and Watch posters/lurkers, you mean like all 500 of them? Looks as if VD is going to be very rich.

Maybe the alts will buy it too.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Because it's that easy, right?

Yes, when you're willing to invest into your pet project.

Bullshit.

Finding good people is never, ever easy, even if you are willing to pay proper salaries. The company I work for hires a lot of people every year. Only 1 out of 10 is motivated enough and dedicated enough to put in an honest effort into a job who's getting paid good money for.

Finding people to work on some online projects is 10 times harder, even if you're willing to invest something. The list of issues is miles long.

Modders are such modders, indeed.

It wasn't that funny the first you said it.

Not to mention that there are a lot of things other than salary that a small indie developer simply can't offer, even if they can pay full salary. Most importantly: career advancement and status. Pro-level coders/artists/desingers aren't going to want to work for some random guy who happens to have a good idea, when they can get a job for the same money at an established company. The reason is that they're worried about what will happen to their job once the game ships. The indie could go under at any time and suddenly they are unemployed. They might not even have a finished game from it, to put on their cv. And when they then go apply to a major company afterwards, the HR guy (or whoever is interviewing them) will ask where they've been working and go 'who are they? Never heard of them. Mustn't have been able to get a job at a real firm'.

When it comes to actually making a living, most folks want job security - they want to know that when they finish the current game they'll be shifted to another one, and another after that, so they can work permanently.

And then small indie teams are likely to be less flexible (out of necessity) when it comes to annual leave (remember that outside of the US folks get a lot more leave - in Australia we get a compulsory minimum 4 weeks/yr paid holiday, plus 2 weeks/yr paid sick leave, plus long service leave and public holidays, Europe gets a few more weeks than that). They won't have social functions or big christmas parties, etc (mind you, I hate work parties

And most importantly: career progression. What can a one-man-band offer his employees with regard to a career path? You're probably not going to be able to afford to give them annual raises. There's simply no structure for promotions. You're the sole owner, so it isn't like they can work towards 'making partner' one day. Again, if you're looking at getting employees good enough that they are doing this for a living, you need more than just an immediate salary.

It's difficult for any employer to find good staff. For a one-man-band in an industry of large firms, it's pretty much impossible to find folk other than those who can't get a job with a big firm (and then there's retaining them - if you DO get one with talent, chances are he'll leave for a big firm as soon as he gets enough material/training on his cv).

 

[mondblut]

VD had a different opinion

let's assume 50.000$ per year per person for such a project to be worth your while, and let's assume they have 5 full team members (nick, vd, oscar and some more bros I don't remember who contributed a bit like portraits, music etc)

Does not compute. The latter indicates VD has a team working professionally for money, not modders pretending to do something for KKKs.

and it has created

 

[Lumpy]

As for these kinds of projects, no one should do any art or coding, until the design docs are fully complete. A designer should complete the design and then go away and let the programmers and artists do their job. If they don't meet the milestones, then the designer can take his work elsewhere. Far less dramas that way.

I don't get it - what purpose would that serve?
First, it could mean a fuckton of wasted work for the designer, if nobody picks up the project. Second, design requirements and limitations could arise from the programming, meaning that a lot of design docs could become obsolete. And finally, it'd be a lot harder for the designer to stay involved in the project, without tangible results.

IMO, a good model could work like this: the designer creates a basic framework for the game (world, systems, etc.), and a proof of concept (one or two complete quests, to prove he can actually do his job*). Then, he finds a team, and they build the game in unison. The objective would be to get the game ASAP to a stage where, if they got bored or whatever, it could be released in a quasi-finished state within a month. Then, they'd drive the game to completion, keeping it in the aforementioned state all along.

*No, mondblut, the designer isn't just a guy who goes around writing stories and telling modellers what to do.