Game News Cyclopean Canceled

[Lumpy]

Well, not AOD done, since my software actually works and I have a game system that wasn't designed by a ten year old.

AoD doesn't actually work? :/

 

[Forest Dweller]

In fact I am 'done'. Well, not AOD done, since my software actually works and I have a game system that wasn't designed by a ten year old. not actually done, either, but all the software is working and now I am 'polishing'. By polishing of course, I mean making the actual game, its content, the art, etc. Probably I won't be done in a making monies sense for 5 years but I still feel pretty fucking smug.

What's the name of your game?

Shadow Warrior.

For real?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

What's the name of your game?

Children of Megiddo

His game will be inspired by this indie RPG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufWoTC1C1_I
you assume the role of a ball of goo in this game

 

[Wang Lo]

He will react like a Sick Bum, with massiv butthurt as ususal.

Of course it's butthurt to be angered knowing that I will always be compared to incompetents and liars whose only redeeming factor is their game is 'indie'? Of course it's butthurt to get annoyed at the thousandth time some asshat lectures me, the great and terrible oz, on how to fucking make software? Usually from people who've never made any software to speak of let alone a full game. Even the socalled experts are mostly scripting pukes who couldn't do real coding to save their lives, they take a ride in a spaceship like some kind of nasa chimp and think they are space ace. It's butthurt to quietly slave away out of the limelight in my spare time instead of attention whoring day in and out for 8 years pimping vaporware that has the stability of a first pass prototype and will probably never see the light of day? It's butthurt to do all the work of a large team and get better results in a shorter time than any game I've ever even heard of? I'd love to prove you wrong, but of course it's hardly the best marketing or use of my time.

And no, I don't take criticism poorly. Unlike some other socalled developers I don't argue against critical points or come up with bullshit excuses every time a huge flaw is pointed out, I merely acknowledge them and file them away for detached analysis, and people critiquing my art have been amazed at how well I took criticism, and more amazed by how much I improved afterwards. You can't fucking get anywhere if you can't not only take criticism but analyse it intensely and find out exactly what they mean and why. Again this comes down to have you ever actually done anything, instead of are you a forum attention whore modder who has some groovy ideas to make the next coolest game evar.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I'm programing this awesum gaem that's way better than that POS Vinec Dweller is doign. I haev this awesum skills and I'm very competent, yet I will not show anything nor offer a proof or all the shit I'm spewin'

But beluieve me, I'm awesum and my gaem is awesum.

 

[Wang Lo]

Well, what game did vince ever make? As far as I can tell, he provides moral support and ESL as learned at a bustop dialog.

For every cringing crybaby with a double dose of the helpless gene making excuses on the internet behind a big scary mask there is also another guy behind another curtain, far away, actually doing something.

 

[Achilles]

Of course it's butthurt to be angered knowing that I will always be compared to incompetents

It's butthurt to do all the work of a large team and get better results in a shorter time than any game I've ever even heard of?

... Cleve? Is that you?

 

[Twinkle]

Burn baby burn, flames are gettin' higher!

You are so stupid! You cannot find ass with both hands!

 

[Wang Lo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCopQAVxeU0

 

[Forest Dweller]

My money's on Chefe.

 

[Lumpy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCopQAVxeU0

Ah. So he is a Cleve parody - genius game developer, everyone else is a moron, wall of text posts, posts youtube videos in place of arguments.

 

[zeitgeist]

An interesting thing about the indie "company" model (usually not an actual company) is that, since there is little to no money involved, there can never be an actual company hierarchy where people have some responsibility for what they do, not only to their superiors, but also to themselves, their peers, and their subordinates. Thus any hierarchy that is established, is established (and enforced) by social means, and almost inevitably leads to all kinds of crazy bickering between team members and leader(s), taking the focus away from the actual game, and bringing it closer to the obsession with this abstract idea of "being game developers" mixed with constant struggle over the team's ever-changing power structure.

I'm sure a lot of Codex posters who are into playing or modding Jagged Alliance 2 could say a thing or two about the 1.13 mod, and how it ended up in a state it currently is, and that's just a mod (though a relatively complex one). A mod that could - if a proper design document (mainly regarding the externalization of various hardcoded features) was written and its implementation properly enforced - be finished in a couple of months at most by serious modders, making the game fully moddable for hobbyist modders afterwards. But you just can't do this with a group of random internet people.

One solution to the hierarchy problem is developing a cult of personality. However, this is probably one of the worst solutions, because even if the game in question gets made, if the cult leader is a horrible designer (which is the role they usually take - sometimes with writing or programming/scripting involved), who among the team members will risk getting ostracized from the cult by telling them that a particular feature is horrible? Or if they recruit people who don't know anything about the job they're supposed to do, and bring the team down, will anyone dare to speak up?

This is one of the reasons why people usually say "learn to program, learn to do basic graphics, make the game yourself" (note how "learn to write" or "learn to design a game" are conspicuously absent), but it is also one of the reasons why people this advice is directed at don't. Because if they did, they could blame no one but themselves for the final product.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The chance someone who's never made a game and never even made a large piece of software of any kind could make a design document that was worth even a dime is about a trillion to one.

Game designers are the game industry equivalent of an IT analyst. What is an analyst? Analysts are there because programmers' time is too expensive to waste on details that can be taken care of by an analyst. Usually it's someone who has some tech skills but not good enough to be the alpha coder, or knowledgable enough to be sys admin, hopefully with some domain knowledge but the reason they exist is not because they are so awesome at anything, it's just there's a million details to take care of in making software and if you waste your only good coder on deciding all these details you won't be done for 100 years.

And so it comes down to you can't make software without programmers. It's like trying to make ice without water. You can't expect a random person to design software with good results, it will never happen. As soon as people see what they asked for they realize just how idiotic and useless it was, to the point they don't believe it's what they asked for unless you provide documentation to that effect, which is the long and short of why milestones exist. It's like a contract between the client or boss and the programmer, even when it's not part of a legal document.

And how does that help things? A lot if you have 20 programmers and a client who is suehappy. Not at all if you are making an indie game.

So even if you suspend disbelief and think somehow everyone on codex will fork over 10 bucks to make a game, and even if there's some way to ensure there's no theft of monies rendered, and even if you can all agree on who is best to run this, and even if you can all agree on what the perfect game is then it's still a giant waste of time. That is like a blueprint of how every piece of bad software ever made came into existence.

And without this money, how do you get people to do something they have no input in? Even from big name guy like brian mitsoda if I read about a "morale skill" in a design document I would start to think twice about working for him. The fact is as a hobby no one will every put out years of effort to complete a major game. As a business, it is hard to justify because anyone genuinely capable of doing this can already make a good living as a programmer anyway, far better than what even a 'pro' gamer will make. But if someone ever did do it they have all the power, because only they can make it happen.

And while not everyone is a great artist, you will become a good artist a lot faster than you'll become a good programmer. I'm sure there's an issue of talent involved in both, but I was surprised to find it easier to learn how to be an artist than I thought.

In fact I only learned in order to be good enough to know how things work for my own secret project, but it turned out to be relatively easy if somewhat time consuming. If you have gravitas, gird up your loins and really set down to work, you can learn everything about zbrush and maya in 6 months. Being an artist is more than that but books on anatomy and art are easy to come by. So are books on animation.

In fact as a programmer, it makes everything ten times easier. Sick of skinning? Make a plugin that does it in one click, like I did. Sick of how maya smooth works? Make your own smoothing for meshes like I did. You have the power to do whatever you want. For animation, it is ever more useful. It's just fucking joke to try to animate things today if you don't know how to program, you are at the mercy of someone who can make a rig for you to operate. But ultimately rigs suck anyway, if you are a programmer you can control things any way you want.

So, can one guy do everything to make a game? Well, I can. Not sure about anyone else. In fact I am 'done'. Well, not AOD done, since my software actually works and I have a game system that wasn't designed by a ten year old. not actually done, either, but all the software is working and now I am 'polishing'. By polishing of course, I mean making the actual game, its content, the art, etc. Probably I won't be done in a making monies sense for 5 years but I still feel pretty fucking smug.

So you're saying you'll help Scotty make Cyclopean?

Great!

 

[Wang Lo]

I guess my main point is why would I or anyone else make a game for someone else, this is the mindboggling question that I cannot fathom. You can be part time artist or writer but there's nothing part time to the programming burden of making a game, which for anything but a FPS with swords like oblivion is a huge fucking task. Which incidentally is why all games are so simple like oblivion or gothic in case no one figured that out. It's not people are stupider or demand minigames and popamole it's that making a complex game that makes some fucking sense is hard work.

When I finally get my game done, you and scotty and FIFE team and ITS can team up and make mods together and eventually stab each other to death over what font to use in opening screen, while I try to justify cutting my salary in fifth for rest of my life by getting to say I told you so.

EDIT: I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

 

[Roguey]

I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

Self-awareness or understatement. What was your original screen name here? Why do you go through alts faster than Drog? You're like his verbose eviler twin. Have you ever thought about exchanging ideas with him or is he too much of a modder for you?

 

[Sceptic]

This guy is like a bad version of Cleve, Bryce and everyone VD has ever made butthurt over the years, all mashed into one.

If he had posted one unrelated anime image in there I would've said Jim Profit as well.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

He should include unrelated images in his post. I think that the unrelated images in an angry rant are quite cool.

 

[Silellak]

This guy is like a bad version of Cleve, Bryce and everyone VD has ever made butthurt over the years, all mashed into one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

An interesting thing about the indie "company" model (usually not an actual company) is that, since there is little to no money involved, there can never be an actual company hierarchy where people have some responsibility for what they do, not only to their superiors, but also to themselves, their peers, and their subordinates.

Why?

Responsibilities and duties don't depend on money (otherwise businesses wouldn't struggle to find people who are actually willing to work for money, not just get paid), but on people's qualities (passion, dedication, maturity, drive, commitment, being able to work with others and accept criticism, etc). Look at the Codex staff, for example. There is both a hierarchy and responsibilities. Everyone knows what needs to be done and they do it because it's their "job" and it has to be done.

Thus any hierarchy that is established, is established (and enforced) by social means, and almost inevitably leads to all kinds of crazy bickering between team members and leader(s), taking the focus away from the actual game, and bringing it closer to the obsession with this abstract idea of "being game developers" mixed with constant struggle over the team's ever-changing power structure.

Not really.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I guess my main point is why would I or anyone else make a game for someone else, this is the mindboggling question that I cannot fathom. You can be part time artist or writer but there's nothing part time to the programming burden of making a game, which for anything but a FPS with swords like oblivion is a huge fucking task. Which incidentally is why all games are so simple like oblivion or gothic in case no one figured that out. It's not people are stupider or demand minigames and popamole it's that making a complex game that makes some fucking sense is hard work.

When I finally get my game done, you and scotty and FIFE team and ITS can team up and make mods together and eventually stab each other to death over what font to use in opening screen, while I try to justify cutting my salary in fifth for rest of my life by getting to say I told you so.

EDIT: I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

You didn't finished American Hare chefe/bryce, with what moral authority you spill all your bulshit?

 

[soggie]

Corpse Crew... now that sounds familiar...

 

[Lumpy]

Corpse Crew... now that sounds familiar...

That was the joke.

 

[Wang Lo]

Corpse Crew... now that sounds familiar...

That was the joke.

You're on a site where I registered as ALT due to troll paranoia by the mentally ill modder bitches on this site knowing full well the admins can see my IP address and even said who I was yet the dumbfuck still crowed as he 'revealed' me.

But still you'd think the actual sarcasm tag would be enough hint. Apparently not. Man even a good kingcomrade thread would make this place seem wittier these days.

 

[Wang Lo]

I guess my main point is why would I or anyone else make a game for someone else, this is the mindboggling question that I cannot fathom. You can be part time artist or writer but there's nothing part time to the programming burden of making a game, which for anything but a FPS with swords like oblivion is a huge fucking task. Which incidentally is why all games are so simple like oblivion or gothic in case no one figured that out. It's not people are stupider or demand minigames and popamole it's that making a complex game that makes some fucking sense is hard work.

When I finally get my game done, you and scotty and FIFE team and ITS can team up and make mods together and eventually stab each other to death over what font to use in opening screen, while I try to justify cutting my salary in fifth for rest of my life by getting to say I told you so.

EDIT: I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

You didn't finished American Hare chefe/bryce, with what moral authority you spill all your bulshit?

Jealousy eating you up just at the hint of my success? It will get worse, much much worse for you in the fullness of time.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I guess my main point is why would I or anyone else make a game for someone else, this is the mindboggling question that I cannot fathom. You can be part time artist or writer but there's nothing part time to the programming burden of making a game, which for anything but a FPS with swords like oblivion is a huge fucking task. Which incidentally is why all games are so simple like oblivion or gothic in case no one figured that out. It's not people are stupider or demand minigames and popamole it's that making a complex game that makes some fucking sense is hard work.

When I finally get my game done, you and scotty and FIFE team and ITS can team up and make mods together and eventually stab each other to death over what font to use in opening screen, while I try to justify cutting my salary in fifth for rest of my life by getting to say I told you so.

EDIT: I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

You didn't finished American Hare chefe/bryce, with what moral authority you spill all your bulshit?

Jealousy eating you up just at the hint of my success? It will get worse, much much worse for you in the fullness of time.

Ok. Carry on Chefe.