Game News Cyclopean Canceled

[Davaris]

The Notorious P.I.G.: This Is Indie Games
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV8ARp1T ... r_embedded

 

[Wang Lo]

I guess my main point is why would I or anyone else make a game for someone else, this is the mindboggling question that I cannot fathom. You can be part time artist or writer but there's nothing part time to the programming burden of making a game, which for anything but a FPS with swords like oblivion is a huge fucking task. Which incidentally is why all games are so simple like oblivion or gothic in case no one figured that out. It's not people are stupider or demand minigames and popamole it's that making a complex game that makes some fucking sense is hard work.

When I finally get my game done, you and scotty and FIFE team and ITS can team up and make mods together and eventually stab each other to death over what font to use in opening screen, while I try to justify cutting my salary in fifth for rest of my life by getting to say I told you so.

EDIT: I have to admit, it's possible I lost my mind.

You didn't finished American Hare chefe/bryce, with what moral authority you spill all your bulshit?

Jealousy eating you up just at the hint of my success? It will get worse, much much worse for you in the fullness of time.

Ok. Carry on Chefe.

In all seriousness, it's funny how everyone fixated on my closing paragraph. I don't think I am some guy with secret of life and titanium bones, I was just pointing out I do have some knowledge in how to make software, and it turns out making a game is exactly like any other software I ever made. Even if someone is really into whatever the domain area is (like RPGs) doesn't mean they can design software without feedback of a working version to compare it to. If someone has never made a game, and never made software that took years to make before, they have no business writing a design document and it is a worthless waste of time. I know this from watching it play out over and over again.

But on the other hand, the cult of personality ( every post by oscar or nick seems to be you go girl!), plus the funny idea that this is an important place, we are making a difference. Through internet posts. Through inspiring and leading. By being a good community. All we need to do is clean up our acts a bit and the developers will come back and post again about how great minigames and popamole are and how far we should bend over today. This site is not about entertainment and having a last drink as the plane goes up in smoke, it's a beginning of a new era. Yuck yuck yuck. Because some people don't understand what work means, it's not organizing or making charts. Maybe VD should rename himself The Crimson Tape? Well, of course it seems like internet epenis but I suspect what I post is exactly what very many of those developers secretly think.

 

[Forest Dweller]

You are the biggest fucking faggot on the planet.

 

[Wang Lo]

You are the biggest fucking faggot on the planet.

And here it is, deep down in its faggoty core, the "mature" posters here think this really is a prestigious magazine. I'm fighting the good fight, with counter marketing! We'll storm the gates of washington and vietnam war will be over in no time. Just like how the vietnamese will just give up fighting if we maintain a defensive stance long enough and show our resolve and how the iraqis will stop fighting due to shock and awe. Nixon sat back and laughed at the protestors while ho chi minh sat back and laughed at ameriduh and 20 americans get blown away every day in vietraq as we sit here mentally masturbating.

I am not better than anyone else, the only answer I have is work is the answer to any problem. Work at anything and you will succeed, if you fail, apply more work. Applies to making money, making friends, getting in shape, being popular, anything you want or need to do. You don't need to be a genius, you certainly don't need a fucking design document, and most of all don't need a forum for people to stroke your ego unless you are a budding tranny of course. Too bad I didn't realize that sooner and wasted too much time in the worng directions but that's life I guess.

 

[Jaesun]

You are the biggest fucking faggot on the planet.

 

[Wang Lo]

All games need is heart, soul, and indie spirit!

 

[Kosmonaut]

But see, you'll get the exactly same answer whenever you go to a random forum and claim to be a fucking quality poster/programmer/designer/artist/tranny. Where's the proof? Why should I believe you, and more important, why should I care?

I'm not defending Nick or Oscar or Vince "Douchebag" Dweller, but with them, at least there's something that you can see, read and even play. At the end, if Nick is a bad programmer or the salsa dancer is a bad texturer or modeler, you still can see the work and watch the sheer effort of their continuous work on the game. I bet that most of the people that cheers at them whenever they post, do it just by that.

And fuck that "we are the world", "we are elite individuals" "fighting the good fight" mentality that you think everybody here have. I'm here for the lulz and because the alternative would be the TES or Beth forums.

Edit: Pertinent image, related with all this hairy affair.

 

[MasterSmithFandango]

Oh God...

 

[JarlFrank]

No img tags on NSFW images please. At least not outside of GD.

Nice chick though.

 

[Wang Lo]

Of course, and that's just one reason why you should never take anyone's words as the ultimate authority. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it. There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general. If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed. For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

 

[Kosmonaut]

Of course. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

And who claimed the contrary? That's common knowledge on this forums. And what relevance does it have? I mean, the game is being done right? The game is above VD ego and promotion. If the only thing that you can see is the latter. Then the problem is with you and your fixation with the douchebag.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it.

<vd>Proof? Please post some links where there's the claim that AoD is a fucking really good piece of software? Please post something that can substantiate your claim.</vd>

There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

I can picture one of those dudes from ITS getting annoyed with the constant nag, request for changes and generally brash personality of VD. But I think you are assuming a lot of things. First, you are assuming that Nick is just a mindless drone that piss code whenever is asked, and that the argentinian is just a zombie that shits models and textures at the speed of VD speeches. Oscar, according to the last interview in GameBitchy, has a lot of input in the art department, he's in charge in fact. Nick has been the programmer since forever. I don't think AoD could be what's now without them. Maybe they have their own goals, that sometimes overlap or are against the canadian asshole goals. But they have them nonetheless. Maybe VD used his smooth talk skills and sold them oil snake or something to keep them motivated, but I find it difficult to believe. You are just getting blinded by the most vocal member of that team. Maybe?

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general.

And nobody claimed the contrary. Yes I have read Peopleware too.

If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed.

But that's the nature of the trade, bitch. Programming is hard. Requeriments are a bitch (like you, LOL). And getting a complex project in track is difficult. You are making it sound like this was something that just happens to inexperienced people, like ITS.

For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

Hum... Refactoring? Iterative programming? Prototyping? Adjusting the design document? Documenting? Extreme programing (a shitty technique but has lots of good ideas).

 

[Kosmonaut]

No img tags on NSFW images please. At least not outside of GD.

Nice chick though.

Sorry Jarl. I forgot about the NSFW rule.

 

[Forest Dweller]

No img tags on NSFW images please. At least not outside of GD.

Nice chick though.

That's some A+ moderating right there.

 

[Melcar]

That shit should be a fucking ban, Bro. This shit should not be tolerated.

 

[Wang Lo]

Of course. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

And who claimed the contrary? That's common knowledge on this forums. And what relevance does it have? I mean, the game is being done right? The game is above VD ego and promotion. If the only thing that you can see is the latter. Then the problem is with you and your fixation with the douchebag.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it.

<vd>Proof? Please post some links where there's the claim that AoD is a fucking really good piece of software? Please post something that can substantiate your claim.</vd>

There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

I can picture one of those dudes from ITS getting annoyed with the constant nag, request for changes and generally brash personality of VD. But I think you are assuming a lot of things. First, you are assuming that Nick is just a mindless drone that piss code whenever is asked, and that the argentinian is just a zombie that shits models and textures at the speed of VD speeches. Oscar, according to the last interview in GameBitchy, has a lot of input in the art department, he's in charge in fact. Nick has been the programmer since forever. I don't think AoD could be what's now without them. Maybe they have their own goals, that sometimes overlap or are against the canadian asshole goals. But they have them nonetheless. Maybe VD used his smooth talk skills and sold them oil snake or something to keep them motivated, but I find it difficult to believe. You are just getting blinded by the most vocal member of that team. Maybe?

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general.

And nobody claimed the contrary. Yes I have read Peopleware too.

If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed.

But that's the nature of the trade, bitch. Programming is hard. Requeriments are a bitch (like you, LOL). And getting a complex project in track is difficult. You are making it sound like this was something that just happens to inexperienced people, like ITS.

For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

Hum... Refactoring? Iterative programming? Prototyping? Adjusting the design document? Documenting? Extreme programing (a shitty technique but has lots of good ideas).

Yeah no fucking kidding, because my post was not about cyclopean at all, and I never mention it at all.

My post was in response to mondblut's plan and some of the other comments about software engineering. All the things you come back with come down to learn to program. Yep, that's about all there is to it. If you don't you are just wasting your time. You don't need to be some genius but you can't make a game in word document. The whole idea of a game designer just won't work out too well for an indie game anyway, for reasons stated. And, why would someone work without input? I'll tell you flat out no one will work that way for at least practical reasons like there will be obvious mistakes everywhere.

So if you want to be a game designer, it's really like an IT analyst. You can also do that but again you have to learn how to program a bit to do this to any good degree.

As for AoD being done, I have played demo and it seems very incomplete to me. I have thought all along polishing meant you know, like fiddling with stats, changing functionality. But even a year after first demo I get crashes, and there's lots of little bugs with interface. Even a first prototype that unstable would worry the fuck out of me. This is like 8 years into development now, 6 years of which has been this polishing we hear about.

After playing demo, I am not sure this game will ever get released. That is my professional opinion as an outsider. The obvious bugs are the easy ones to sort out, this doesn't even count quest logic, the kind of bugs I expected there to be. That kind of crap is ahundred times harder to fix than some random lockups, depending on the cause. But when you have things in a rickety state, you are just fucked. It is not easy to figure out why shit is ALMOST working. ALMOST working code is the worst code you can have, it is like having gremlins on the plane tearing it apart in flight.

My opinion of torque in general is probably ricketiest product ever made, so maybe the use of torque is much of the problem? Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now and I was skeptical but even I thought by now it must be close but now I wonder if it is a doomed project.

Especially since torque is now abandoned. No one is going to make that crumbly engine work with directX 11 and with windows 8, I can port a game engine to linux i 4 days (have done so) but making it WORK would be a five year undertaking. It doesn't even work with windows ultimate and directx 9 properly, and probably never will. There's a fucking hoard of unresolved bugs in all versions of torque, and lots of other problems that have no real explanation or show the new programmers just don't know how to make correct rendering code.

So maybe they will move to torque3D? I don't know, seems likely and then the engine change will put the game out another 100 years. But after all the times of VD coming out like some fucking expert on software dev and then seeing that result it was pretty priceless.

If AoD is great, great. If AoD even comes out, I am maybe 50/50 at this point, but that's not easy to judge from outside. But if even the basics are rickety and buggy then the real playtesting is going to be a nightmare. Playtesting is not about DOES BASIC SOFTWARE WORK? It's assumed that is the case or no one would be releasing this product (or would go out of business soon after, and/or get sued). Playtesting is mostly there for the game logic and to make sure of things like correct content (or any content) shows up.

So will it come out? Hopefully but I am not holding my breath.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

You are the biggest fucking faggot on the planet.

And here it is, deep down in its faggoty core, the "mature" posters here think this really is a prestigious magazine. I'm fighting the good fight, with counter marketing! We'll storm the gates of washington and vietnam war will be over in no time. Just like how the vietnamese will just give up fighting if we maintain a defensive stance long enough and show our resolve and how the iraqis will stop fighting due to shock and awe. Nixon sat back and laughed at the protestors while ho chi minh sat back and laughed at ameriduh and 20 americans get blown away every day in vietraq as we sit here mentally masturbating.

I am not better than anyone else, the only answer I have is work is the answer to any problem. Work at anything and you will succeed, if you fail, apply more work. Applies to making money, making friends, getting in shape, being popular, anything you want or need to do. You don't need to be a genius, you certainly don't need a fucking design document, and most of all don't need a forum for people to stroke your ego unless you are a budding tranny of course. Too bad I didn't realize that sooner and wasted too much time in the worng directions but that's life I guess.

Edit: Pertinent image, related with all this hairy affair.

Oh God... Do you happen to have... more of them? I'd like to see them... for research purposes.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Of course, and that's just one reason why you should never take anyone's words as the ultimate authority. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it. There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general. If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed. For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

I hope your programming is better than your reading comprehension. There are plenty of posts - probably an easy majority of folks here - who are approaching AoD with cautious 'let's see it if/when it materialises' skepticism. We just don't see any reason to view you with even greater skepticism. As unpolished as the AoD demo was, it has the benefit of existing and being publically available for examination. Your game does not. So whatever skepticism is warranted for AoD (and I'm pretty skeptical of all indie projects given the extremely low ratio of quality:shite), ought to be multiplied for your game. After all, you haven't even been able to produce a buggy, unpolished demo for public viewing, and until you do produce something folks can actually examine there's no reason not to lump you in with the hundreds of other indie developers who have come here, boasted about how great their game is going to be, and then either never finished the game at all (mostly never even STARTED the game) or produced utter shite.

So yes, folks should be skeptical of indie projects until they actually materialse. That includes yours.

 

[Phelot]

Hey Wang Lo I have some ideas about video games lets get together some time and team up I'm thinking about this game were this guy uses a laser to destroy enemies, but in this game the player IS the laser gun why don't you draw up some concept art now

 

[Davaris]

Hey Wang Lo I have some ideas about video games lets get together some time and team up I'm thinking about this game were this guy uses a laser to destroy enemies, but in this game the player IS the laser gun why don't you draw up some concept art now

Lo Wang rather kick ass then solve stupid puzzle.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As for AoD being done, I have played demo and it seems very incomplete to me. ... But even a year after first demo I get crashes, and there's lots of little bugs with interface.

It's the same fucking demo. What did you expect? That it would magically get better? Or that we'd continue polishing the demo?

After playing demo, I am not sure this game will ever get released. That is my professional opinion as an outsider.
...
If AoD even comes out, I am maybe 50/50 at this point, but that's not easy to judge from outside.

So will it come out? Hopefully but I am not holding my breath.

Your professional opinion - as an outsider, whatever that is - is that you are not sure that the game will get released? That's your professional opinion as an outsider even though "it's not easy to judge from outside"? Makes sense.

Anyway, like 4 years ago people were saying it would be released any day now ...

We've started working with TGE 5 years ago. Do you really think it takes a year to make a game, especially considering the lack of experience (as you've noted) and the part-time nature of the project?

But after all the times of VD coming out like some fucking expert on software dev...

Like where?

...and then seeing that result it was pretty priceless.

I'm pleased with it too. Tons of positive feedback (see our front page, including the avault quote (but what do they know, right?), gaming magazine spreads, publishing inquires, etc.

Playtesting is not about DOES BASIC SOFTWARE WORK? It's assumed that is the case or no one would be releasing this product (or would go out of business soon after, and/or get sued). Playtesting is mostly there for the game logic and to make sure of things like correct content (or any content) shows up.

You should consider writing a book. This is good stuff. I wish I knew it when we started.

 

[Serious_Business]

Lulled. What is it with faggots comming out of the woodworks to challenge VD to a stupid quotes match? "A challenger appears". This isn't goddamn boxing, what the christ? What are they trying to prove here exactly? Must be more VD induced "butthurt" because I can offer no other coherent answer to conceptualise this need that they are expressing through this passive-aggressive woman bullshit

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Your professional opinion - as an outsider, whatever that is - is that you are not sure that the game will get released? That's your professional opinion as an outsider even though "it's not easy to judge from outside"? Makes sense.

Professional codexer?

 

[Wang Lo]

Of course, and that's just one reason why you should never take anyone's words as the ultimate authority. And even if I were John Carmack it's not like I'd come out and say that right? If you say word retarded anywhere but an anon forum you get 7 emails before you reload the page saying what an utter bastard you are. I got nothing against nick and oscar, and the only issue I have with vd is I can see the salesman perk image every fucking time he talks and I don't believe for a second he is on any side but his own self promotion.

But that is a red herring. My point was you can't just be really good at some random subject (if that's even the case, most projects are a joke) and make great software at one go about it. There's also just no fucking reason someone would ever put up with that sort of relationship, except in the one in a million case you agree with every word someone says or you have a charismatic leader able to manipulate others into going along with all his ideas or even beliving they are the ones who came up with them. But no war gets won by charismatic leaders, they get won with rifleman.

Nothing I say goes against what's taught about software engineering in school, or against popular opinion for software in general. If you made something like that it would be years of editing and bullshit to get it into line with something that can work at all, and in the end there's still be many things wrong, guaranteed. For a two or three year project often there is 10 years of fucking around before it even starts, and that's with analysts that at least kind of know something of programming and of the domain area. People just can't work without something to see, even when you have made similar software and have experience it is not easy to make a working design beforehand, but no one is going to do it without any knowledge or experience.

I hope your programming is better than your reading comprehension. There are plenty of posts - probably an easy majority of folks here - who are approaching AoD with cautious 'let's see it if/when it materialises' skepticism. We just don't see any reason to view you with even greater skepticism. As unpolished as the AoD demo was, it has the benefit of existing and being publically available for examination. Your game does not. So whatever skepticism is warranted for AoD (and I'm pretty skeptical of all indie projects given the extremely low ratio of quality:shite), ought to be multiplied for your game. After all, you haven't even been able to produce a buggy, unpolished demo for public viewing, and until you do produce something folks can actually examine there's no reason not to lump you in with the hundreds of other indie developers who have come here, boasted about how great their game is going to be, and then either never finished the game at all (mostly never even STARTED the game) or produced utter shite.

So yes, folks should be skeptical of indie projects until they actually materialse. That includes yours.

Hey genius, I already said this is not a marketing program I have started here. I also know just how done my game isn't, and just how done it is. It has much less content than AOD, especially if it's true it has as much text as torment (which seems hard to credit given the seeming simplicity of the factions and described texts unless it's mostly filler word porn).

I don't expect anyone to suck my cock, the whole point is the opposite. If I wanted attention I'd become a tranny like SMA and start up a game forum to trickle out details of how fucking great I am, and about how great some conversation is because you can get that troll's key in like 500 ways. I don't have supeiority complex like cleve, I am a normal guy and part of my point was to say you get places BY WORK, not by being smart or having special secret cleve powers. No doubt some here would bash on my lack of art direction, or the genericness of my characters, but I have results that are good enough for me and I have studied art and lighting extensively and do life studies half an hour a day to improve my eye so I may not be pablo picasso but I have results better than I thought I could ever do, and on programming side things are more solid than I ever hoped for. Also, for proportions and weight in animation it turns out having a computerlike brain makes things much easier.



VD, you are a professional bullshitter. I am a professional codebot, and all your bullshit is easy for me to spot because my codebot mind saves and analyzes past and present statements on the fly and no one in history has tripped that bullshit alarm more than you, aside from bethesda employees of course but when you read a press release it is their job to spice things up and put the best face on things but your bullshit and weasling and backpedalling on forums is another story, especially talking over your head all day long every day about subjects you have no fucking clue about. Well guess what? A real dev is posting here today, your fondest desire. Hope that clears things up.

And why I come from the woodwaork now? Because I am done. Well, 'done'. Now it's all content, and my stressful time is past so I have time to correct incorrect statements to my heart's content. And now that I am 'done' I see AoD and it's not any more 'done' than when I started! I have been working less than half the time for god's sake, also mostly in spare time.

 

[Forest Dweller]

 

[Jaesun]

Drog, Drog never changes...