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D&D 5E Class Discussion

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by S0rcererV1ct0r, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. Meredoth Arcane

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    Yep. One of the worst aspects of 5e is the tiers and the fact that the power gain is pretty small except in the 3 power spikes. Lv 5/11/17... Except in HP. Each lv up a class can gain d6/d8/d10+con hp but more damage, a fighter only gains at this 3 power spikes. It is awful as the "oblivion/faggout 3" hp bloat system but in a TT game. The necromancer which I soloed BG2:SoA was with about 45 hp on epic levels.
     
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  2. Mangoose Arcane Patron

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    They dug themselves out of the hole known as 4e. That's already tremendous.
     
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  3. Fedora Master Arcane Patron Edgy

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    I thought the entire point of 5E was not to have dead levels, yet here we are...
     
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  4. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

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    Listening to the opinion of someone who has exactly zero experience with the system doesn't sound like a great idea, but knock yourself out I guess.

    Our friendly neighborhood sorcerer read some random stuff about the edition on the internet, and then proceeded to make various baseless assumptions and to draw completely arbitrary conclusions. Trusting him on this topic is almost like trying to learn astrophysics from a drunk ten-year-old who read a couple of Wikipedia pages.
     
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  5. Takamori Learned

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    Ok instead of dick fencing lets get some arguments rolling explaining why the statement is wrong.

    Show Spoiler
    So I can learn about the 5e edition in the most efficient and lazy way possible :thumbsup:
     
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  6. Rinslin Merwind Arbiter

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    I haven't read much into last several pages, but D&D 5e DOES NOT have official tiers in terms of power/level, nor in terms of class performance in specific roles. All non-official tiers is based on how it feels for creator of this tier to play x class on x level and depends on DM.
     
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  7. Black Arcane

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    Haha, typical sorc, m i rite
     
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  8. Sergiu64 Arcane Sad Loser

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    Casters definitely get a lot more power spikes than that. Fighters get that thing that lets them act twice sometimes. A lot of those archtypes get stuff at random levels, Druid can morph into more powerful creatures with time for example. Abjurers start getting temp hp from casting Abjuration spells, etc.
     
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  9. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

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    What statement?

    This one? This simply doesn't make any sense. The difference between two characters of level x and x+2 is always very noticeable, and not only because the latter has more HP. Hell, sometimes even a single level of difference changes drastically the capabilities of a character. At level 2 a Druid (Moon) gains wild shape, a Fighter can act twice in the same turn, and a Wizard (Evoker) can exclude his allies from his AoE spells or use abilities such as this one (Diviner):

    Being able to arbitrarily change the rolls of your allies and enemies is the complete opposite of a "pretty small" power gain.

    At level 3 many characters gain their archetype, which usually gives strong and defining abilities. A Rogue (Assassin) always deals double damage against surprised enemies, a Barbarian (Bear Totem) gains resistance to all types of damage while raging (which means that he only takes half the damage), the Paladin gains his Oath.

    At level 5, casters gain their 3rd level spells and most martials gain their second attack.

    At level 6, a Wizard (Evoker) deals damage with his base spells even when enemies make their saves, a Wizard (Diviner) regains a spell slot every time he uses a divination spell, a Druid (Moon) overcomes enemies' magic resistance (which basically means doubling his damage output against any enemy that matters), and a Druid (Stars) gains this obscene thing:

    At level 7, casters gain their 4th level spells, which usually are completely game-changing. Stoneskin, Polymorph, Confusion, Banishment, and so on.

    What I just did for the first 7 levels could be easily done for the remaining 13. Every odd level, characters gain access to new spells, so basically you have "power spikes" at levels 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, and 17. But every even level they also gain a new class feature or improve their abilities, so there are also minor "power spikes" at levels 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20.

    Our necromancy fanatic just saw that fighters only gains new attacks at levels 5 and 11, and decided that that's the only thing that counts to determine the power level of every class in the game.
     
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  10. Nano Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

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    Why are they trying so hard to get people to play Diviner wizards?
     
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  11. Meredoth Arcane

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    My point is that going from lv 10 to 11 gives more power than from lv 5 to 10 and that everything on 5e has higher HP but less damage. When I was soloing BG2:EE on Legacy of Bhaal, I fingered the demon lord on the underdark like he was a succubus. How many finger of deaths would take to kill a demon lord on BG3?

    And note that on BG3 I entered in the freaking underdark on lv 4. On BG2 you only reach underdark on the chapter 5 of Shadows of Amn. There, you can get powerful scrolls and a shirrtton of XP.

    Nobody is saying that 5e has dead levels. Only that has huge power spikes and the awful tier idea from 4e.

    Disintegrate spell in lore is supposed to transform a thing into dust. HOW someone or something can survive being turned into dust??? On arcanum, it could be used even off combat to destroy heavy fortified doors. On 5e disintegrate just deals 10d6 + 40 force damage, or 75 damage on average. Too low for a 6th level spell IMO.
     
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  12. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

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    And my point is that this is false.

    The power difference between characters of level 10 and 5 is far greater than that between characters of level 11 and 10. And you would know it if only you had even the remote semblance of any experience whatsoever with the system. At level 7 you can learn Polymorph and turn into a giant ape, how do you fail to see how strong that is?

    Can you please help me understand the logical connection between "Finger of Death no longer instantly kills demon lords" and "characters only gain power at level 5, 11, and 17"?
     
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  13. Meredoth Arcane

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    No, because you are using a strawman and another strawman .

    1 - Finger of Death is ONE spell which no longer OHKills. All OHKill spells got removed which corroborates to my point that 5e is a far low lethality game and has no relation to power gain. And was only one point to show that 5e is very low lethality. Another example? Firkraag on BG2 had 184 hp. Old dragons on 5e has more than twice the hit points of 2e and spells deals less damage.

    I don't wanna people surviving being disintegrated. It is silly on fantasy or in SCI FI. Nor wanna people surviving dozens of ballista shots. Is that hard to understand?.

    2 - I never said that you only get power on lv 5/11/17. Read again, I said that the power gain in this levels are HUGE. This has no relation to the point 1, is another point. Got it?
     
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  14. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

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    You know what would corroborate your point even more? Having actually played the game, or at least having the slightest idea of what you are talking about. I could tell you again that usually characters go down to 0 HP in a couple of rounds regardless of their level, but it would be pointless because you don't care about reality, you only care about this completely imaginary idea you have of the game.

    5E is a very high-lethality game in the sense that monsters deal a lot of damage and, due to its bounded accuracy, even a small group of low level monsters can reliably hit and damage high level characters. These two things combined create a game where it's very hard for a character to survive more than two or three rounds of sustained fire in combat. With the right party setup it's still very easy to survive thanks to the high availability of fast healing spells, but that's an entirely different question, and by removing Healing Word you already solved the problem 90% of the times.

    Yes, there are no more OHKO spells, but that doesn't show that 5E is a low lethality game. It just shows that there are no more OHKO spells.

    That's an example of nothing.

    Disintegrate deals 75 damage on average, very few characters can hope to survive that (and only mid-high level ones). And you could survive Disintegrate even in prior editions: you just needed to make your saving throw.

    Are you so oblivious that you are unable to understand your own words?

    You said this. How the fuck can the power gain be "pretty small except in the 3 power spikes" if at certain levels the power gain is even more noticeable than that of those three supposed "power spikes"?
     
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  15. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

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    You survive being turned into dust because your constitution and resistance allow you to resist the effect of the spell.

    I don't understand if you are trolling or something.

    The game numbers are abstractions. If you can understand how the abstract defense "fortitude saving throw" or "constitution saving throw" can make a character survive a Disintegrate spell, how can you not understand how the abstract defense "hit points" can do the same?
     
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  16. Sergiu64 Arcane Sad Loser

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    You're concerned about a difference between 5th and... 2nd edition? While we all enjoyed the imbalances of the 2nd edition - I don't think its realistic to expect them to allow Mages to outclass everyone else so dramatically for decades and multiple editions.
     
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  17. Meredoth Arcane

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    Wrong. A lv 1 warlock can with small chance OHK another lv 1 warlock. But a lv 4 warlock, can't OHK a lv 4 warlock even maximizing the rolls. HP growth is far greater than damage growth.

    Yep. Not an example of how low lethal 5e is /sarcasm

    Except 4e, please. Name one TT game with lower lethality than 5e. Just one. World of Darkness and GURPS are far more high lethality than even old school D&D.

    Because high FORT makes you morel ikely to resist the spell. A high hp enemy has the grantee to resist. Two completely different things.

    Then play 4e. The most balanced D&D edition ever. Balance is often against immersion and fun. Ranged combat in general is lackluster in 99,9% of modern CRPG's exactly due balance cultism.

    Imagine if GURPS technomancer had this balance cultism "I with a fast swinging blade can't compete with the water mage who is throwing geysers, summoning elementals and developing a magical line of production. Nor with a hitman with a .338 lm sniper rfifle capable of OHKilling a human a mile away, lets nerf all tech and magery in the game". Quite the contrary. People who don't wanna high tech or high magic, go play no magical/low tech games...
     
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  18. Lawntoilet Cipher Patron

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    He said "A couple of rounds," and that's true in your example as well.

    "If you don't like it, play another edition that's more to your liking" - take your own advice.
    FWIW, 5e still isn't especially balanced, except in comparison to older editions. Ranged combat for example is very strong, and caster supremacy still kicks in at higher levels.

    5e still is a high magic game and it isn't an example of "balance cultism" like, for example, 4e or Pillars.
     
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  19. Meredoth Arcane

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    5e is less balance focused than 4e but still far more than 2e.

    Most D&D games that we are getting and modules/adventures for 5e are "dungeons & kobolds" games, so no high level powerful spells. Also, keep in mind that I said many times that mid to high level martial classes should be more "legendary".
     
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  20. mediocrepoet First disciple of Mediocrites Patron

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    This may be more to your liking.
    http://www.dyskami.ca/besm.html
     
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  21. Meredoth Arcane

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    Yep. Because Beowulf and similar "mythic" warriors was "anime"...
     
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  22. mediocrepoet First disciple of Mediocrites Patron

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    S0rcererV1ct0r What does Beowulf have to do with being mad your characters can't throw hyper beams at each other all day?
     
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  23. Meredoth Arcane

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    Never said hyper beam. But IMO a high level barbarian should for eg, has regeneration, super mobility, ability to strike so hard that he can ignore most armor, chance to decapitate the enemy, auras, superhuman strength able to crush fortified doors and shake the ground by kicking it some supernatural powers like a "warcry" which makes weaklings flee in terror among other cool things, resistances to poison and disease(...) This is not throwing hyper beam.

    If you really wanna bring anime to the table, guts from berserk is IMO how a mid level barbarian should be.
     
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  24. Lawntoilet Cipher Patron

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    Barbarians can get almost all of this.
    All Barbs have improved mobility but Eagle Totem Barb can fly in bursts

    AC is chance-to-hit and Barbarians can give themselves at-will advantage on all their attacks, so they're better at "ignoring armor" than other classes

    Certain subclasses get these
    They get advantage on all Str checks and can break the attribute cap on Str at level 20
    Berserkers get this
    Bear Totem gets this (and resistance to almost all other damage).
     
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  25. CodexTotalWar Educated

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    Just because 1 class isn't capable of OHKing doesn't mean the entire game is low in lethality. Regardless, a Level 4 Fiend-lock can still reliably output enough damage to pop himself in one hit.

    Level 4 Warlock with 14 CON has an average hp of 29.5 (40 max)
    Hex + Scorching Ray = 9d6 damage = 31.5 average (54 max)


    Some other examples of Lethality/OHKs at level 4 - these are classes straight out of the box (no feats and real optimization required). Most of these require using resources (i.e. spells and class features), but I'd say that's fair if you want to OHK a character of the same level.

    - Per above, a single Scorching Ray has actual OHK potential (6d6), but any sorcerer can reliably double cast (via quicken) for 12d6 damage (42 average damage, 72 max)
    - Any paladin can stack Divine Smite with Thunderous Smite for 2d6+4 +3d8 + 2d6 (31.5 average damage, 52 max)
    - A Battlemaster Fighter with can Action Surge for 2x superiority die attacks for 2x (2d6+4+1d8) (31 average damage, 48 max). An Eldritch Knight can action surge to drop 2x level 1 Chromatic Orbs for 6d8 damage (27 average, 48 max)
    - Heck, even a Cleric's basic level 2 inflict wound (4d10 = 22 average, 40 max) has a chance of 1 hit clapping the 4th level Warlock we just talked about above

    This isn't even looking at damage with actual build optimizations (i.e. ANY lvl 4 Fighter with Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert can make 3 attacks with Action Surge and output 50 average damage, 63 max damage)
     
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