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D&D 5E Class Discussion

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by S0rcererV1ct0r, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

    NJClaw
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    A Paladin 3/Rogue 3 can deal 2d8 (rapier) + 4d6 (sneak attack) + 4d6 (thunderous smite) + 4d8 (divine smite) damage against a single surprised target. You are mostly useless after that and a regular single class Paladin is obviously better, but it still is p. fun.

    You should also consider that Lacrymas needs to play a divine character multiclassed with a furtive class in every single game, otherwise his heart might suddenly stop.
     
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  2. Takamori Learned

    Takamori
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    I was wondering, with two handed weapons you basically lose 16 dmg points potential assuming the person is wearing a greatsword, but with Great Weapon Master Feat can't we reach +20 dmg sustained bonus due to crit? Or I'm reading wrong?
     
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  3. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
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    Seems like you're sort of wrong based on this: http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/feat:great-weapon-master (which is exactly how it's written in the 5E PHB)

    According to that link, you can either get a free attack on crit, or choose to take -5 to hit on a regular attack for +10 damage. So basically you choose one or the other, but on a crit, that free attack will give you more than 10 damage normally if it lands.
     
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  4. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
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    I mistyped. Basically, they're not mutually exclusive effects in a turn, but they are separate effects, so the +10 damage is not related to rolling a crit.
     
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  5. Lawntoilet Cipher

    Lawntoilet
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    Crits only double your damage dice, not your total damage, so Great Weapon Master damage doesn't get doubled on a crit. It stays +10. But it lets you take an extra attack with your bonus action when you crit, too.
    If you use a greatsword, and stay with only 3 levels in Assassin, you'd sacrifice your 4d6 Sneak Attack on your first hit, but you'd get an extra attack (with advantage and a chance to auto-crit).
    So a Paladin 3/Rogue 3 with Great Weapon Master could deal:
    4d6 (greatsword) + 4d6 (thunderous smite) + 4d8 (divine smite) +10
    4d6 (greatsword) + 4d8 (divine smite) + 10
    No that's incorrect. You can choose to do -5/+10 any time you make an attack with a "heavy" weapon. Any time you crit or kill something with a melee weapon, you can also choose to make another attack with your bonus action (and you can choose to do -5/+10 on that additional attack if you want, provided you are using a "heavy" weapon).
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  6. Yosharian Magister

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    A single classed Paladin would get Extra Attack, an ASI or feat (Great Weapon Master could be an option, or Polearm Master), not to mention Aura of Protection.

    This means that by multiclassing to Rogue you have effectively gained 0 damage (or even lost some), possibly lost some accuracy, and you and your entire team has lost a very valuable survival ability that could potentially win fights alone.

    When you or your allies are paralyzed, or held, or stunned, or charmed, or suffering from any number of horrible status effects, they do 0 damage (or worse).
     
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  7. NJClaw I'm single now, looking for a new forum boyfriend Patron

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    As I said:
    But you definitely didn't lose any damage for that single strike.

    I mean, it's pretty pointless, but it's worth something if you are a weeb and want to play a iaijutsu master or something like that.
     
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  8. Takamori Learned

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    Ah makes sense just saw an official errata e neither the extra attack get the smite bonuses.

    Also can't be paralyzed if they are dead first:smug:
     
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  9. Yosharian Magister

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    Also I didn't even mention the fact that you lose out on level 2 spell slots which means you can execute more Smite nukes and improve your damage (and other, more important things) with those spells.

    In summary, it's pretty shit.
     
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  10. Lawntoilet Cipher

    Lawntoilet
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    As in, you don't double your smite dice on a crit? OK.
    You still can use your bonus attack from great weapon master to get a second smite, though.
     
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  11. Takamori Learned

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    https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-april-2016 as far as I can tell the errata said no smite on the second attack to avoid excessive dice rolls
     
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  12. Lawntoilet Cipher

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    That's regarding Great Weapon Fighting (a fighting style you can pick as a class feature for martial classes), not Great Weapon Master.
     
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  13. Lacrymas Arcane

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    You can't dual-wield rapiers without a feat. You could get 3d6 from scimitars at pal 5/rog 3 though.
     
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  14. Takamori Learned

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    Oh my appologies I'm retarded didn't saw the fighting in the end, so yeah GWP basically raise the dmg output with this.
     
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  15. CodexTotalWar Literate

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    Paladin/Warlocks (esp. Hexblade) and Paladin/Sorcerer are top tier multi-classes for sure. I don't think they're strictly better than a single class Paladin (depends on Subclass IMO), but they do bring alot.

    On top of the extra CHA spell slots and tons of useful arcane spells, just getting access to CHA-based ranged cantrips might be worth it to shore up a Paladin's ranged weakness.
    • A great thing about Paladin/Warlocks is that you can use your Paladin slots to cast Warlock spells. So all those really good but low level spells (like Shield, Absorb Elements, Misty Step) that normal Warlocks don't want to blow their max-level slots on, you can use much more freely as a Paladin/Warlock. A bit impractical, but you can also stack Eldritch Smite with Divine Smite - both of which can be declared after hit (meaning you can crit-fish), for a hilarious amount of damage.
    • Paladin/Sorcerers have some very nasty combos with quicken, aside from adding tons of ranged/aoe/mobility options. A common one for damage is Quickened Hold Person/Monster > 2x auto-crit Smites
    Bards are also top tier in 5E (full casters now) and multis with Paladin very well too - although you'd be leaning a bit more towards more support abilities in that combination.

    Although not the best, I quite enjoy a 2-3 level dip into fighter for Paladins. Action Surge lets you double down on your burst damage (smite 4-6 times in a turn depending on build) and helps alleviate your dependency on long-rests a bit. An additional fighting style is also fantastic. Certain subclasses (i.e. Battlemaster) can give you tons of additional resources/options too. You do lose spell progression, and dipping at the wrong time will do more harm to your character than good.


    I'm a little wary of the way Larian's been implementing after-hit abilities (i.e. Battlemaster) and reactions - which will be an indirect nerf to Paladins given the way Smite works (declared after you know the hit result).
     
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  16. Lawntoilet Cipher

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    You don't have to dual-wield them. Those numbers are for an Assassin, which gets auto-crits on every hit they land in the first round. The 2d8 comes from the doubled dice on a crit.

    It's definitely D:OS-ified which is a negative in my book, but it's got its good points. Quest design is pretty open-ended, for example. It's worth checking out.
     
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  17. Lacrymas Arcane

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    Ah, then you can get 2d10 with the Dueling fighting style.
     
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  18. Lawntoilet Cipher

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    No, you get 2d8+2. Dueling gives you a flat +2 damage per hit, and static modifiers don't get doubled on a crit.
     
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  19. Thac0 Hopeless Optimist Patron

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    Pala Rogue isn't that bad. Any class that does not have anything particularily good going on with it's bonus action can take 2 levels in rogue for cunning action alone. The battlefield mobility alone is insane.
    Also Sneak Attack dice is good aswell. Expertise is amazing out of combat.
    Honestly any dex based class can take up to 7 levels in rogue for evasion without losing much power. A dex Paladin multid with a rogue is weaker than a pure Paladin, but pure Paladin is one of the stronger classes in the game.

    In general you seem to underestimate multiclassing a bit. Yes 5e makes it deliberatly weaker than singleclassing. But 5e also has very flat power scaling. As long as you bring roughly the same damage per turn as everyone else to the table, or offer a strong utility benefit, every class is generally viable. Being able to play your character well, understanding the action economy, AC hit chances and always having access to ranged weaponry plays a much greater roll than having a slightly stronger single class character.
    I have been the strongest character in an IRL round on a Monk/Wizard before and that might be genuinly the weakest multiclass you can make in 5e.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  20. Lacrymas Arcane

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    It depends on the level cap. If it's 10 in BG3, Paladin 7/Rogue 3 doesn't sound bad. You miss out on 3rd level spells and Aura of Courage, but you get combat maneuvers as bonus actions, sneak attack, and the extra crit from Assassin. Maybe Rogue 5/Paladin 5 too. Extra sneak attack damage and uncanny dodge, but lose Aura of Protection and the second Sacred Oath feature.
     
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  21. Yosharian Magister

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    Flat power scaling? What the fuck are you talking about mate, waltzing around the battlefield on my tank Paladin using Cunning Action doesn't compare to level 2 spells and Aura of Protection. Extra Attack alone blows your argument out of the fucking water, let alone all the other stuff.

    With any multiclass if you don't get the same or better out of your dip than you do just continuing in your main class, it's counter-productive. And 5E additionally harms multiclassers by forcing players into the rule of 4 if they don't want to miss out on ASIs/feats.
     
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  22. Lawntoilet Cipher

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    Fighters and Rogues have it better on this front, though some level 1/2/3 class features are better than a feat.
     
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  23. Yosharian Magister

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    Haha no. Polearm Master and a whole bunch of other stuff that I've already explained twice is way better than some bonus action movement and conditional damage.
     
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  24. Thac0 Hopeless Optimist Patron

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    The rule of 4 is slightly overrated since you get nothing but an ASI on almost every level 4. Yes, 5% more hitchance on everything is amazing, but delaying it and staying at only +3 mainstat longer is not the end of the world.
    And what I mean is that if you cross fighter and rogue you shift your powerspikes around a bit. As an example Paladin has the strongest level 2 in the game, and a very powerfull level 5. Rogue has a good 1, a very powerfull 2 aswell, and the best 3 and a very good 5.

    So you could do something along the lines of Paladin 2 > Rogue 3 > Paladin 5 > Rogue 5 > Paladin 15 for a very competent class. Or Paladin 5 > Rogue 3 > Paladin X.
    There are a lot of ways to mix the classes and not gimp yourself if you know what you are doing.

    And what I mean with flat power scaling is that it is hard to make an actively bad character, and the difference between the weakest classes (Monk, Ranger) and the best (Wizard, Bard) is not the world.
    You are moving generally in a small margin of power, and sacrificing a bit of your paladin abilities by delaying higher slots or spells for the versatily of the rogue might be the right call in some rounds, or just plain fun to play.
     
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  25. Lawntoilet Cipher

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    I'm not just talking Paladin/Rogue here. PAM/GWM/Sharpshooter/Warcaster are better, for builds that will take advantage of them, than Cunning Action, sure.
    But getting short-rest smite slots as a Warlock/Paladin, Quicken+more/higher-level slots as a Sorc/Paladin, rage & resistances as a Fighter with a couple Barbarian levels, those can all be lateral moves worth delaying your progression in your main class for a couple of levels.
     
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