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D&D 5E Class Discussion

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by S0rcererV1ct0r, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    Not really
     
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  2. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    You can also triple-class you know.
     
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  3. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    The reason you dip Warlock is to abuse the broken Hexblade class features, mainly CHA to-hit/damage. The spell slots are nice but relying on short rests is inconsistent and overall it isn't really worth going past a 1-level dip.

    And Hexblade is just uncommonly good at first level, most classes don't offer nearly as much - Cleric is probably the only other dip that comes close
     
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  4. Thac0 JRPG ambassador Patron

    Thac0
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    Fighter 2 is pretty unreal for fullcasters aswell.
    The rules that forbid casting two spells in a turn only trigger when bonus action spells are in play.
    A Fighter 2/Wizard 5 can do two fireballs in a single turn with action surge. Nothing survives that. And he has con saves and can wear heavy armor and has fighting style defense.
     
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  5. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    Sorcadin is a Sorc that dips into Paladin to get Smite, not the other way around. It's powerful, but lacks staying power, and it's arguably much more effective just to be a straight Sorc.

    Dipping Barb to get Rage is fine until you realise you just delayed Extra Attack x2 by 3 levels, woops you just played yourself
     
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  6. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    You wanna give up Polymorph, Dimension Door, Arcane Eye, just to cast two Fireballs?

    Eh it's ok I guess, if you like that sort of thing. Don't think it makes you a better Wizard, but it's one of the more effective multiclass combos I suppose.
     
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  7. Lawntoilet Cipher Patron

    Lawntoilet
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    Rage is a level 1 feature.
    Fighter 5/Barb 1 will have Rage for 5 levels before a single-classed Fighter gets attack #3. In those intervening levels the Fighter/Barb has a good and useful trick that they can pull.
    If you're building for the endgame and have a specific level cap that's a bit different, but from levels 6-10 this is a pretty lateral move.
     
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  8. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    In a video game setting where combat/damage spells are much more useful than utility ones, two fireballs are better, yeah.
     
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  9. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    That's actually fair, good point
     
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  10. Thac0 JRPG ambassador Patron

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    To be fair that is the only really OP level 4 spells, and a lot of DMS rein it in because if you run it RAW it is a "I win" button for every encounter that is not smart enough to lock down your concentration.
    Turning the cleric into a CR 7 Monkey or a CR 6 Tyrannosaur just brings absurd firepower and temp hp to the table.

    You definitly play 5e IRL judging by your rules knowledge, unlike a few others in this thread. But generally it seems that you play on very high power tables. Not every table does that.
    Yes, if you want to only play with the A list classes and multis then there is little reason to multi outside a few select examples. But at that point the DM has to make every encounter at twice the recommended xp value to make it deadly just to keep up. DnD 5e is overall not a very hard game, and you can play even 4 Element Monks and do just ok with the encounters from the DMG or a normal pre written adventure.
    On a lot of tables that is even encouraged, as playing a weaker class gives the worse members of a party more room to shine.

    Or to put it into video game terms:
    In a properly minmaxed BG1 party everyone would be either Mage, Fighteror some weird cleric multis.
    But still people play Ranger, Paladin, Bard in that since beating the limits of a bad class is fun. And if you do it well surprisingly viable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  11. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    Just one level? Hmm yeah I guess it's ok. 2 fights per day +2 damage and half damage, it really depends on how many encounters your DM throws at you in an adventuring day.
     
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  12. Sergiu64 Arcane Sad Loser

    Sergiu64
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    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    Plus its not like you lose Polymorph and such forever. Just another 2 levels.
     
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  13. Yosharian Magister

    Yosharian
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    But I was never debating fun, I was debating relative power levels.

    The reason I am interested in this topic is because I personally would like 5E a lot more if it didn't neuter multiclassing so much.
     
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  14. Yosharian Magister

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    Yeah and later when you should get 9th level spells you're sitting on 8th only instead

    Same for 7th when you get spells that auto win encounters, like Forcecage
     
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  15. CodexTotalWar Literate

    CodexTotalWar
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    Going Paladin 6 > Sorc X is also a pretty common Sorcadin progression too (Pal 7 > Sorc X if your subclass has a really good aura). In my experience, you typically want to start as a Paladin to have heavy armor as a Sorcadin.

    The trade off is pretty fair IMO. You do lose a lot of great things (ASI, higher level Paladin spells/abilities - i.e. Find Greater Steed is dope, Improved Divine Smite), but you also gain back more versatility and spell slots. Just getting a decent ranged cantrip and shield + absorb elements is nice and immediately usable. Shadowblade can somewhat make-up for losing Improved Divine Smite. If you go down the Divine Soul route you can snag yourself Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardian too.

    I'm actually not a huge fan of Paladin 2 / Sorc X. Smite isn't very useful for a sorcerer who can only attack once per turn (and requires melee too). Smite damage is actually not efficient for the spell slot it uses - the main benefit is that it's very action efficient and can be used a # of times equivalent to attacks. I know you can quicken a blade cantrip to simulate a bonus action attack, but at that point you're just burning through everything for .


    Agree that dipping Barb ahead of the 5th level Extra attack isn't worth it IMO (since that's a 33%-50% damage buff depending on your build), but I think grabbing Barbarian levels ahead of the 11th Level Extra Attack has merits (especially if you already have Polearm Master).

    Getting a 3rd or 4th attack isn't as much of an astronomical DPR boost, especially when you can now have 2 or 3 attacks with on-demand advantage, and can combo it with the -5/+10 from Great Weapon Master.

    You do have to sacrifice heavy armor, but Rage also basically doubles the effectiveness of your HP (if you choose a Bear Totem barbarian).

    Obviously BG3 fucked Barbarians up by giving everyone advantage, but that's another discussion.
     
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  16. Hace El Oso Arcane Patron

    Hace El Oso
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    When did dual-classing become so common in D&D? It seems like it’s the norm now.
     
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  17. Yosharian Magister

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    On-demand advantage is quite powerful, I'll give you that. It does come with a rather large ATTACK ME sign though.

    You're at least getting Fighter 5, so you're trading Fighter 6-8 for 3 levels of Barb.

    That's TWO ASIs or feats. That's a lot of potential firepower, honestly. Or other advantages, like Lucky. Depending what you chose earlier, you could be going from 16 to 20 STR with those ASIs. That's a significant bump in accuracy, and makes that on-demand advantage look less attractive IMO.

    Of course there's still rage, but again you only get a few of those, again it depends how many encounters your DM is throwing at you. And you're delaying the extra attack x2 later on, which you dismissed but it gives you an incredible alpha strike against a high value target.

    This is one of the more crunchy multiclass options but I think you're overestimating the Barb's value just a little. I would say 1 level of Barb gives you a great ability to use in tough encounters and offers a lot of flavour for your character. Any more than that is really debatable compared to what just continuing in Fighter offers.
     
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  18. CodexTotalWar Literate

    CodexTotalWar
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    I actually agree and wouldn't want to trade Barb 1-3 for Fighters 6-8 - especially with certain subclasses. If we're ignoring subclasses for now, and looking at level 8, for the multi-class I'd do: Fighter 5, Barb 1-2, and then Fighter 6 (I think reckless + danger sense is worth delaying the ASI)

    Whether continuing to Barb 3 is worth it will depend on subclass (can't ignore at this point) and your build/needs. Too many to list, but for example: Fighter 7 (Rune Knight) > Barb 3 (Bear Totem) > Fighter 7 (Battlemaster)


    It fluctuates by campaign, but I value alpha striking very highly (and maybe you're correct that I overestimate it). Generally in my experience, combat usually snowballs very quickly, and I like anything that lets me overload on damage. Obviously, certain conditions can change this assessment (i.e. a HP bloated campaign would diminish the value of alpha striking).

    IMO Reckless Attack's value skyrockets when you combo it with other abilities to stack the odds in your favor - i.e. activating with Action Surge and GWM to greatly improve your alpha strike, and/or obviously when you can mitigate the penalties with Rage

    The attack bonus gained from Advantage is roughly between a +4/+5 to a roll - meaning you can basically use the -5/+10 without penalty (+90ish % damage per hit for a 18 STR Greatsword user with 11 avg 2d6+4 damage). So yes, enemies will be 20%-25% more accurate against you (so assume a +25% expected damage received), but they aren't designed to convert the extra accuracy it into damage at the rate you can. Action Surging further improves that trade-off.

    When you add Rage to the equation with Reckless, the 50% damage reduction more than covers the +25% expected damage penalty, although you have limited uses. Lastly, the penalties of using reckless only activates after your turn - so you always get the benefit of using its effects first to let you snowball, if that makes sense.

    The other level 2 ability - Danger Sense (DEX save advantage in most situations) is also quite decent - it's basically as good as getting Resilience (DEX) at the levels we're talking about.
     
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  19. ekrolo2 Learned

    ekrolo2
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't older D&D editions have ASIs function on basis of the overall character level versus class level? I feel like this would eleviate some of 5es issues with multiclassing.
     
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  20. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    And you mean multi-classing, dual-classing is something that no longer exists.

    Modern D&D multi-classing is trash. It existed as a unique benefit for non-humans to offset their class level limits(and other penalties.) Like most of modern D&D, it has been streamlined and homogenized.
     
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  21. Elex Arbiter

    Elex
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    Speaking of tier class of power (in bg3 and not in tabletop):
    -consider the general limitation of videogames
    -consider larian tendency of give everyone insane magical items.
    -consider rest spam or rest optimization

    paladin is going to be SSS tier, and probally the easiest class for a solo run.

    not even need to multiclass him, the magical items will solve any problem that smite and insane AC/ST can’t solve.

    there is very few things in the multiverse that can survive a 5e paladin with a backpack full of haste potions dual wielding a pair of holy avengers (buffed by larian ofc)
     
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  22. Desiderius Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard Patron

    Desiderius
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    Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    It's been the norm so long that Paizo/P:K made hay subverting it.
     
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  23. mediocrepoet Arcane Patron

    mediocrepoet
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    Codex 2012 MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
    It might not have been the norm in tabletop, but in computer gaming, I'd say it's been the norm at least since Pools of Darkness, maybe earlier.
     
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  24. Takamori Learned

    Takamori
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    Now thats an issue with 5e edition after this autism session in Codex decided to pick the crafting and magic items session to read a bit.
    Back in 3.5 edition you had materials and you could enchant in X,Y and Z ways. Now 5e the crafting rules are really abstract and you have ready baked magic items to distribute from the DMG table.
     
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  25. Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Arcane

    Tuco Benedicto Pacifico
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    Paizo subverted multiclassing?
    I'm not going to argue against it since I'm not really that knowledgeable about the topic, but it seems to match poorly with the fact that basically any guide for " top builds" in Kingmaker seems to suggest you to make a concoction of 15 different classes for your main character.
     
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