D&D for a noob?

[AlaCarcuss]

All the love that's been shown here for KotC has finally made me decide to bite the bullet and seriously get stuck into some oldschool D&D games. Somthing I've been putting off for far too long.

So, I need some recommendations for a D&D game for someone who is very unfamiliar with the ruleset. A little history - I've never played PnP and have only sorta messed about with BG's 1+2 and NWN 1+2. Of course I've played most of the other recent (last 10-12 yrs) RPG's, just kinda avoided any based on the D&D ruleset/s.

What I loved about the KotC demo, was the help system. I loved having all the information I needed for the ruleset at my fingertips so to speak. I still got absolutely pwned in the first dungeon I ventured into - I'm assuming still due to a lack of knowlege.

I have most of the old gold-box games in various forms and - before I knew about KotC, made a valiant attempt at Dark Sun (not gold box but still SSI + D&D), which I enjoyed as far as I got, but was still flying blind and so got slaughtered.

What about the IWD series or one of the IE games? Maybe not as good (PST excepted), but better for a noob tying to learn the ruleset? What about EotB series?

Or should I just purchase and just persevere with KotC and suck-it-up? Suggestions?

 

[GarfunkeL]

Temple of Elemental Evil. Nowadays all the bugs are pretty much fixed, thanks to Circle8. It has extensive HTML-type in-game help, the style of which KotC copied. Since they both use 3.5 ruleset, learning the ropes in ToEE (which is little more forgiving than KotC) will really help you.

2nd edition games (GoldBox, IE-series, Dark Suns, basically anything before NWN1) use different ruleset plus they don't always follow the combat mechanics closely.

NWN and NWN2 suffer from the same thing - even though they use 3.5, their realtime with pause engine limitation makes combat very different from the "real thing".

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

KotC is a good way to learn DnD cause you have all info easily at hand.
Although different rulesets have been used in different CRPGs you just have to follow the basics: AC, Saving throws, THAC0 / Attack bonus. Use equipment/spells to optimize these values and you'll be fine.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Temple of Elemental Evil. Nowadays all the bugs are pretty much fixed, thanks to Circle8. It has extensive HTML-type in-game help, the style of which KotC copied. Since they both use 3.5 ruleset, learning the ropes in ToEE (which is little more.

Ah yes, ToEE. Forgot to mention that one. I have had a crack at it - never got out of the first town, bored me shitless. Though, I recall reading in a thread here somewhere that the game improves grately after that. I wasn't aware of the help system either - sounds like it's time to fire up ToEE again....

KotC is a good way to learn DnD cause you have all info easily at hand.
Although different rulesets have been used in different CRPGs you just have to follow the basics: AC, Saving throws, THAC0 / Attack bonus. Use equipment/spells to optimize these values and you'll be fine.

Yeah Vent, I kinda know the basics - at least the ones you mention - didn't stop me from getting raped multiple times very early on in the KotC demo though - does the full game start out any easier? :D

 

[MetalCraze]

DnD is actually very easy to get into once you understand which damage hurts given enemy the best and that crowd control is very important (all those webs, roots, charm spells) as well as properly using healers.
Start with ToEE and IWD (the 1st one as it is 2nd ed - to counter ToEE's 3rd ed) and read some hints on the internet - as each combat encounter requires unique approach even walkthroughs can provide valuable info. ToEE and IWD because they are your standard DnD adventures in FR with the proper top-down perspective and are the most combat oriented.
I would've recommended older DnD games though (which have manuals that will tell you more than ToEE and IWD will) but most of them are first-person and in many cases - real-time - which can be really uncomfortable for a newcomer (it's still uncomfortable for me). You can try Dark Sun though - but it's quite different from your typical Faerun DnD adventure.

Nowadays all the bugs are pretty much fixed, thanks to Circle8

You wanted to say old ones fixed-new ones added because as any self-respecting bunch of modders they just had to add their own stuff and even mess with original quests and a standalone bug-fix pack is a big no-no.

 

[Grunker]

You want the best implementation of ruleset and the best combat - stick to ToEE. Don't expect to see just a hint of originality or interesting story though. IWD is in this category as well, though with somewhat worse implementation and somewhat better storyline.

For anything else, stick to the rest of the IE games.

EDIT: IWD and BG1 becomes a lot more sufferable if you include the NPC-mods. Go to pocketplane.net to find them.

 

[Mackerel]

ToEE and IWD because they are your standard DnD adventures in FR

Blasphemy! ToEE is in the Greyhawk setting. :pendant:

 

[MetalCraze]

Ah yes - I wanted to say the same basic elements like classes, races and overall setting which isn't that much different from Faerun's.
Aforementioned Dark Sun has those things differently.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Yeah Vent, I kinda know the basics - at least the ones you mention - didn't stop me from getting raped multiple times very early on in the KotC demo though - does the full game start out any easier? :D

Yes. Also you are able to optimize AC etc if you take the crafting feats as they become available and you'll also have the moneyz necessary unlike in the demo. However only the lich fight is p. hard in the demo, the rest is quite doable.

 

[sah]

If NWN OC bored you, skip ahead to the first expansion. You can start it with a lvl 1 char. I'm thinking of replaying it actually.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Play ToEE. NWN "real time" doesn't do 3.5 rules justice. Where's my 5 foot step ?

 

[AlaCarcuss]

DnD is actually very easy to get into once you understand which damage hurts given enemy the best and that crowd control is very important (all those webs, roots, charm spells) as well as properly using healers.

Yeah skyway, you must've read my mind. Knowing what tactics to use, spells to cast etc...against specific types of enemies, is probably my biggest problem. I'm checking out some FAQ's on this stuff atm.

Yes. Also you are able to optimize AC etc if you take the crafting feats as they become available and you'll also have the moneyz necessary unlike in the demo. However only the lich fight is p. hard in the demo, the rest is quite doable.

Ok, good to know - I've purchased the full version. I aslo re-installed ToEE with the 5.6.1 Co8 patch/mod and already had IWD and Dark Sun installed so I'll have a crack at all of 'em begining with ToEE - see which one/s suite me better.

Funny story with the KotC demo - I entered the dungeon just to the south/west of the starting position where you search the barrels and find a worm to kill then went downstairs. Took care of the zombies without much trouble, then the next fight my cleric and wizard took some heavy damage from the enemy casters before they went down. Came to the closed door - so I chose to listen at it and heard a fire on the otherside - great campsite!, I can rest and heal up - opend the door to find 3 firey beasts who wanted a ruby I didn't have to use the campsite - so they FUCKED ME IN THE ASS INSTEAD!! Awsome lol - man I really want to play this game once I get some more DnD experience under my belt.

 

[Mackerel]

How I wish ToEE had been The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth instead. That was such a great module.

 

[MetalCraze]

BTW when fighting undead - don't forget that healing them will hurt them too, sometimes more than usual weapon damage. DnD has such good quirks.

 

[GarfunkeL]

And newest version of KotC has Turn Undead finally.

Also, slashing/piercing weapons do not do as much damage against skeletons as blunt weapons do - though that is not implemented in every game. Some spells are extra efficient vs undead, like sunburst but that reads in the spell description. Other spells are only useful against evil opponents, like Smite, so they do not harm neutrals, like animals.

Some spells autohit, like Magic Missile, while others require Ranged Touch and still others Touch or Ranged.

Touch - you have to be next to the target but she gets only DEX-bonus to AC.
Ranged Touch - same but from afar.
Ranged - afar but the target has full AC (this is actually worst case for casters since they have small BAB)

KotC and ToEE are the only games I have played that include interception, if you just charge/move close to an enemy with longer than normal reach, they get an AoO.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Funny story with the KotC demo - I entered the dungeon just to the south/west of the starting position where you search the barrels and find a worm to kill then went downstairs. Took care of the zombies without much trouble, then the next fight my cleric and wizard took some heavy damage from the enemy casters before they went down. Came to the closed door - so I chose to listen at it and heard a fire on the otherside - great campsite!, I can rest and heal up - opend the door to find 3 firey beasts who wanted a ruby I didn't have to use the campsite - so they FUCKED ME IN THE ASS INSTEAD!! Awsome lol - man I really want to play this game once I get some more DnD experience under my belt.

I did the same in the demo, however I beat them though! You can also give them a gem and they'll let you use the fire to rest(you find a gem above ground somewhere...)

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

BTW when fighting undead - don't forget that healing them will hurt them too, sometimes more than usual weapon damage. DnD has such good quirks.

it's actually one of the best ways to get rid of powerful undead, like the vampire in the cave early on (KotC), yes he draines your lvls and you have no access to restoration yet, but he has like 9 HP or something so a simple cure moderate will kill him if you get the initiative to act first that is.

 

[sah]

Play ToEE. NWN "real time" doesn't do 3.5 rules justice. Where's my 5 foot step ?

To be exact, NWN1 is only 3.0 ed.

 

[Mackerel]

Using cure spells to damage undead is stupid, reminds me of those JRPGs. I do remember that Raise Dead acted as Slay Living on certain undead, like wights, but cure spells never worked on anything that was dead or incorporeal when I played D&D. Did they add that in 3rd edition or something (haven't played since 2e)? I never even noticed in ToEE or NWN.

 

[Xor]

Using cure spells to damage undead is stupid, reminds me of those JRPGs. I do remember that Raise Dead acted as Slay Living on certain undead, like wights, but cure spells never worked on anything that was dead or incorporeal when I played D&D. Did they add that in 3rd edition or something (haven't played since 2e)? I never even noticed in ToEE or NWN.

The "cure" series of cleric spells hurt undead in 3rd ed. So does a paladin's Lay on Hands, among other things. The "inflict" series of spells heal undead and hurt the living. They're touch attacks, but I haven't seen them used that way pretty much ever.

Slay Living doesn't act as Raise Dead for anything as far as I know, though.

 

[deuxhero]

If you want purely to learn the ruleset, you might want to try the SRD, and if you want to avoid the large number of PDF files Wizards offers it in, try d20srd.org.

 

[AlaCarcuss]

If you want purely to learn the ruleset, you might want to try the SRD, and if you want to avoid the large number of PDF files Wizards offers it in, try d20srd.org.

Ooh, nice. I'll keep that open while playing for quick reference :wink:

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

made a valiant attempt at Dark Sun (not gold box but still SSI + D&D), which I enjoyed as far as I got, but was still flying blind and so got slaughtered

If you had problems in Darksun here is all you need to know to roflpwn everything:

- only play dual or even better tripleclass chars except Gladiators (but you don't need those)
Fighter/mage/Psi, Fighter/Druid/Psi etc, that way everyone can use the best weapons and Armor (there is no arcane spell failure in armor), Psi owns everything and Fighter gives Armor/weapons prof and ThAC0, so if you want a Mage make him Fighter(armor,weapons)/Preserver (to be a mage)/psionicist (to pnw everything), use the same approach for other classes, except you'll need 1 thief so Fighter/Druid/Thief

- also chars that are not Psionicist get a few psi abilities, but choose Telepathy at char creation

-best combat psi abilities are egowhip and mass dominate and charm, so get those and level them up to 20 or so, but there are also some other interesting abilities like displacement etc

- fight in the arena until you leveled up and got access to those psi abilities then kill all the draj guards and escape, should be easy enough from then on

 

[AlaCarcuss]

Ok, good tips there. The classes and class structures had me a little confused I msut say. Thanks Vent.

You wouldn't believe I just got fucking pwned by a single ity bity centepede (that just happend to be 5 levels above my party) hiding in the barrels in the store room on the ground floor of the KotC castle. Right after doing quite well in the orc battle outside and feeling proud of myself. My guys tried to run away and the fucking thing ran 'em down one by one and ate 'em. That's just not fair! :evil:

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

ok I see, as soon as it spawns, run out of the small room with your whole party, in the bigger room hold distance with your mages/cleric and cast damaging spells on it, have your melee fighters flank it, use elemental summoning... not too hard, just don't try to fight it in that small room and get outa there immediately