Decline D20 is terrible so where are the 2D6 CRPGs?

[Drop Duck]

TL;DR: See the title, where are the CRPGs with 2D6 systems and low numbers? Old school isn't 2ed ADnD. I want to escape the tyranny of the icosahedron.

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Having gotten some time off this Christmas I have finally managed to get some time into the new Pathfinder game and what strikes me is that I remember enjoying PnP what feels like a lifetime ago (it almost was) but despite how much crunch this game has and the treats thrown in to please grognards it isn't doing it for me. One of the games I remember enjoying playing back in the day was Traveller, so I surfed the web for a bit and came across a couple of articles.

Traveller, Cepheus Light and The Perfect RPG Mechanic

So, I think I may have mentioned that I love the classic RPG Traveller. I think I also mentioned that long ago, I wrote a very simple RPG to play with my daughters that used one of Traveller‘s rules. Because I have come to the conclusion that Traveller‘s basic task resolution mechanic is perfect.

So what is the mechanic? You have skill ratings for whatever your character can do. Skill ratings range from skill-0 (newbie) to skill-4 (seasoned veteran). In order to find out if you succeed at doing something, you throw two six-sided dice, add your skill rating, add any modifiers the GM assigns (for difficulty, etc) and try to hit 8 or higher. This mechanic was simply called 8+.

But…that rule was only used for combat skills. For reasons I cannot fathom, the designers of Classic Traveller did not use that lovely, lovely 8+ mechanic for general skill checks. Instead, each skill had its own mechanics, resulting in a horrible mish-mash. How bad was it? Allow me to quote from Classic Traveller Book 1, Characters & Combat, 1981 edition:

Gambling: The individual is well informed on games of chance, and wise in their play. He or she has an advantage over non-experts, and is generally capable of winning when engaged in such games. Gambling, however, should not be confused with general risk-taking.

Organized games (as at casinos) allow bets of up to Cr5000, and require a throw of 9+ to win. Private games allow bets ranging from Cr50 to Cr5000, and require a throw of 8+ to win. Gambling skill allows a DM of +1 per level, but the house will always win on a throw of 2 exactly. Games may be crooked (throw 10+ to be dishonest) in which case the referee will stack the odds against the players. Gambling-3 or better will usually detect crooked games (throw 7+ to detect). Gambling-4 or better may be suspected of cheating and ejected (or worse) due to the finesse of the skill involved (throw 9+ to be suspected; DM -1 per level over 4). Characters may elect to use a lower expertise level in some cases in order to avoid detection of true skill level. Referee: Characters’ die rolls should not be divulged when gambling; instead merely inform the individual of wins and losses. This will serve to conceal any manipulation of the throws.

Most of the other skills aren’t much better; it’s all 9+ this and 3- that. It actually caused me physical pain to read the original Classic Traveller rulebooks and see them get this so wrong. Why not just use 8+ everywhere? It made no sense to me.

So, ever since, all us fans have been waiting for a “fixed” version of Classic Traveller.

Then MegaTraveller came out. Its designers wanted to more thoroughly integrate stats into the game. In Classic Traveller, stats almost didn’t matter once your character was created. It was very rare that any stat other than Education or Social Status was referenced in gameplay, and there were no mechanics for making a check against a stat as opposed to one against a skill.

So MegaTraveller introduced the idea of stat bonuses. A character’s stat bonus for any stat was stat/5, round down. This means that a below-average stat of 5 gives characters a permanent +1 bonus on any success roll that pertains to that stat – in addition to any skill that also applied. This had the result of inflating the success rate of rolls, prompting MegaTraveller to abandon the simple 8+ mechanic in favor of a system of four values, for Simple, Routine, Difficult and Formidable tasks.

Now, MegaTraveller is a good game. Its task resolution system is highly regarded because it provides very clear details on what modifications to success rolls mean and how they should be calculated. But not only does MegaTraveller not fix Classic Traveller, it isn’t even really compatible with it.

Then Traveller had kind of a dark age. Traveller: The New Era switched up the mechanics and made drastic changes to the Third Imperium setting that few fans seemed to like. Marc Miller, the original designer, tried to give us the “fixed Classic Traveller” with Marc Miller’s Traveller, but incomplete rules and a host of production problems prevented the product from clicking with players. Steve Jackson Games’ GURPS Traveller married the Third Imperium setting to GURPS’ realistic rules to great effect, producing some very good sourcebooks. But fans were still wanting a new version of the old rules.

Then things started getting better. In 2008, Mongoose Publishing came on the scene and produced a frankly excellent set of Traveller rules. Mongoose Traveller is well-regarded, but it leans towards the MegaTraveller rules, with characteristic modifiers still added to skills. It’s not as bad as MegaTraveller, since even getting a +1 modifier requires an above-average characteristic of 9, but it’s still an inflation of the original resolution curve.

Enter, at last, Cepheus Light, from Stellagama Publishing. Cepheus Light is Classic Traveller all the way, with several improvements. While there are task difficulty levels like in MegaTraveller, they are compatible with Classic Traveller‘s success distribution, and the majority of rolls during play will still be 8+ rolls. All skills use the same mechanics. While stats do have bonuses, they are never combined with skills, instead being used for things more like saving throws. And the system still only requires two six-sided dice.

And that’s that. Cepheus Light completely fixes Classic Traveller and I love it. Why? Why is a coherent ruleset based on the 8+ mechanic so important to me?

• Easy to remember. If you understand the mechanic and have done any roleplaying, you’ll probably remember the mechanic forever, even if you never play Traveller in any form.

• Easily obtainable hardware. Polyhedral dice are awesome and can be very pretty, but if someone is just getting into the hobby they can seem like a barrier to entry. “I’ll try it when I get some dice” can easily turn into “I never got around to trying it”. With this mechanic, all the dice you need can be filched from that Monopoly set in the closet.

• You can do the math in your head. The low die rolls and skill modifiers mean that the totals rarely come out to above 20.

• Players always want to roll high. Some systems use low rolls for some parts of the system like task resolution and saves, but high rolls for things like damage and reactions. It can be confusing, especially for new players. Cepheus Light makes it simple – you always want to roll high.

Does it have any drawbacks? Of course it does; nothing is perfect. (Yes, I know, I said it was perfect above. I may have exaggerated slightly for humorous effect.)

The main drawback is that the numbers are very “crunchy”. The use of 2d6 as the base roll means that success percentages jump radically as players gain their first levels of skill. Going from skill-0 to skill-1 raises your chance to succeed by almost 17%, and while the jumps get smaller as you increase skill, they are still significant. Because of this, games based off of these mechanics tend to have very slow character growth, which can seem unsatisfying to players familiar with other systems. Still, good GMing can mitigate this and I feel all the benefits outweigh this drawback.

Well, you read to the bottom of this article, so you probably have an interest in Traveller and/or Cepheus Light and you deserve a reward. While the main rulebook for Cepheus Light has a suggested price of $10, you can download a free version called Cepheus Faster Than Light, which covers the basic task rules, character creation and combat. It’s a great way to find out if you’re interested in the main game and makes a great handout for new players if you’re GMing a game.

And there’s already Cepheus Modern, a Cepheus Light spinoff set in the modern age…

Source

Taking a look at the fairly recent PnP game written about, the FTL version being free, I felt the urge to play something along those lines, but without any other PnP players I would need a CRPG. However, almost all semi-recent ones I can think of are either D20 or some in-house mess of a system, almost always featuring bloat. If you are lucky enough to have people to play OSR games with then you can get in on that action but what are actually the options when it comes to CRPGs?

If there is a trend of more popamole games in general, then within the CRPG landscape there is a trend away from the beauty and simplicity of genuinely old-school systems, either they trend towards D20 or percentages or insane number scaling. Many agree that high-level DnD is trash, but that was already solved ages ago in three small black books. Where every point invested into something makes a huge difference and that offers a fresh breeze compared to epic DnD/Pathfinder.

2d6 – the original tabletop role playing dice mechanic

Is 2d6 a hype? I see it everywhere. It’s in games Powered by the Apocalypse like Dungeon World, it’s in Maze Rats and Stars without Number.

Powered by the Apocalypse games introduce three possible outcomes to a roll of 2d6:

10 or more: you succeed
7 to 9: you succeed, but there’s a problem
6 or less: the game master gets to make a move, probably introducing even more complication.

That’s cool, it drives the story forward.

The B/X edition of Dungeons & Dragons (1981), which has become sort of lingua franca in the OSR scene, has morale and reaction rolls based on 2d6. In the lack of persuasion skill rolls like deception, fast-talk or savoir-faire, reaction rolls are an important, and actually quite universal mechanic to adjucate non-combat encounters. It goes like this:

 2d6          monster reaction                                retainer reaction                           
 2 or less    immediate attack                                offer refused; reaction -1 on the next roll 
 3 – 5        hostile, possible attack                        offer refused                               
 6 – 8        uncertain, monster confused                     roll again                                   
 9 – 11       no attack, monster leaves or considers offers   offer accepted                               
 12 or more   enthusiastic friendship                         offer accepted; morale +1

Quite a lot of role playing opportunity stuffed into this table. Especially the 6 – 8 range should prompt for some interesting social interaction. Of course the GM can liberally count in charisma modifiers and bonus points for good role playing, bribes offered, or penalties because of overall bad behaviour.

Then 2d6 is the principal die roll in many iterations of the Traveller rules up to Mongoose Traveller and Traveller 5. Classic Traveller was released in 1977. And by the way, there is also the Cepheus Engine, an OGL’ed science fiction system based on Mongoose Traveller 1st edition. There are many supplements for Cepheus, also for non-sci-fi genres, turning it into something like generic universal 2d6 based role playing game system.

But it goes further back. Just look at Chainmail, D&Ds supposed predecessor, published in 1971. The man-to-man combat table uses 2d6 against armor class, just like Classic Traveller.

Blackmoor obviously was the first ever tabletop role playing fantasy campaign. Some time ago, I discovered a post on the gaming experience in Blackmoor. Guess what kind of die rolls were done most of the time? Some character sheets from the Blackmoor campaign have been preserved. Isn’t it suggestive, that attributes and skills had numbers mostly in the range of 2 – 12? The Secrets of Blackmoor documentary released recently is well worth a look if you’re interested in the history of geek culture.

Now I find this quite intriguing. Most people think of a d20 when it comes to role playing and iconic images of dice, but rather likely the original role playing dice were 2d6. In one of my recent posts on reddit I asked how the Classic Traveller rules might be related to the Blackmoor campaign. An interesting discussion ensued and of course the answer is obvious. The designers of Blackmoor, Chainmail, D&D and Traveller knew each other, probably exchanged ideas on game mechanics, 2d6 was commonly used in war games, even before Blackmoor, and after all, d6s were much easier to get at then those funky dice D&D demanded.

Just as a reminder, 2d6 result in a simple bell curve (well, more of a roof top curve actually). Here are the odds:

 2d6   absolute   at least 
 2     2.78 %     100 %     
 3     5.56 %     97.22 %   
 4     8.33 %     91.67 %   
 5     11.11 %    83.33 %   
 6     13.89 %    72.22 %   
 7     16.67 %    58.33 %   
 8     13.89 %    41.67 %   
 9     11.11 %    27.78 %   
 10    8.33 %     16.67 %   
 11    5.56 %     8.33 %   
 12    2.78 %     2.78 %

Finally let my cite this awesome catch all 2d6 based roll playing mechanic found on Norbert G. Matauschs blog, the post is called Back to really simple role playing:

we both roll 2d6; if I’m higher, I say what happens, if you’re higher, you say what happens; if we’re close, we negotiate

What more do you need?

Source

What more do you need indeed, other than a CRPG using 2D6 rolls for combat and task resolution? They offer the perfect balance between chance and predictability, just the right granularity, for smaller numbers where modifiers have impact, not bloated and flabby but not too low either that all nuance disappears.

So if you know of any then post them, or if you are a D20 diehard then post your apologia. Or just post about low-number systems and the games that use them in general.

 

[Tyranicon]

My unpopular opinion is that what works for pnp doesn't necessarily work for a video game. Unfortunately, I have yet to settle on what I would call an elegantly-designed combat (or otherwise) system for a cRPG.

 

[Butter]

Disco Elysium uses 2d6. I guess it wasn't innovative after all.

 

[Alex]

3d6, of course.

 

[JamesDixon]

I'm going to say that the 3d6 mechanic of Hero System is far superior to the 2d6 since it gives you a true bell curve distribution. 2d6 has the problem that the mean will always be 7 which is a failure in Classic Traveller. While 3d6 has 11 as the mean. Thus, your character is more likely to succeed in tasks as you need an 11 or less for basic skills. Additional skill levels only increase the role under needed by 1 for every set amount of character points. I'd rather have my players succeeding more then them actually failing their skill rolls.

 

[Drop Duck]

My unpopular opinion is that what works for pnp doesn't necessarily work for a video game.

I disagree, if we are still talking about dice rolls and a proper RPG system then what works at the table should work on your computer too. I would put the blame on why many CRPGs are bad in this regard on just this sort of thinking, often using percentages instead of dice and the like. Doing away with RPG conventions entirely for some simulationist attempt. At the end of it you have Skyrim. Why make a dice roll if you control the movement and sword swings of your character in real-time after all? A good ruleset is always good. There are some things that can't be done well on the computer admittedly, canned adventures don't allow for a back and forth in terms of storytelling, but that is always a given and not related to the ruleset so much as the focus of the game.

2d6 has the problem that the mean will always be 7 which is a failure in Classic Traveller.

I like that about it actually and this is one of the reasons I find it a sweet spot. IIRC (unlikely) GURPS uses 4D6 or something and that goes way too far, haven't used the Hero System so I can't comment in-depth about it. That all aside, did anyone ever use the Hero System for an CRPG?

 

[JamesDixon]

2d6 has the problem that the mean will always be 7 which is a failure in Classic Traveller.

I like that about it actually and this is one of the reasons I find it a sweet spot. IIRC (unlikely) GURPS uses 4D6 or something and that goes way too far, haven't used the Hero System so I can't comment in-depth about it. That all aside, did anyone ever use the Hero System for an CRPG?

You prefer your players to fail in their tasks. I disagree since players should be playing heroes not zeroes.

GURPS uses 3D6 as well.

Hero System will most likely never get a computer game based off of it due to how complex it is. That's from Steve Long one of the owners of Hero Games.

 

[Drop Duck]

You prefer your players to fail in their tasks.

Ideally they should die at least once during character creation. True heroism involves real danger and it's no walk in the park.

GURPS uses 3D6 as well.

My bad, I've played it exactly once and didn't like it that much. Don't even remember what made me dislike it.

Hero System will most likely never get a computer game based off of it due to how complex it is. That's from Steve Long one of the owners of Hero Games.

That's too bad, that guy must have his head real deep into the sand. Computers being able to deal with complex systems is one of the reasons to get excited for CRPGs after all. Might have gotten more players into the Hero System too, playing CRPGs does familiarize you with the ruleset if they are good.

Disco Elysium uses 2d6. I guess it wasn't innovative after all.

No wonder it won the GOTY award.

 

[perfectslumbers]

I think the swinginess of d20 can produce more interesting and unpredictable results, so I like d20

 

[lukaszek]

20d1

 

[plem]

Serpent in the Staglands uses all kinds of weird dice

 

[JamesDixon]

You prefer your players to fail in their tasks.

Ideally they should die at least once during character creation. True heroism involves real danger and it's no walk in the park.

GURPS uses 3D6 as well.

My bad, I've played it exactly once and didn't like it that much. Don't even remember what made me dislike it.

I dislike it because it's gritty and you can kill players in one hit. Their sourcebooks are great though. I like Hero System since it's a cinematic experience.

Hero System will most likely never get a computer game based off of it due to how complex it is. That's from Steve Long one of the owners of Hero Games.

That's too bad, that guy must have his head real deep into the sand. Computers being able to deal with complex systems is one of the reasons to get excited for CRPGs after all. Might have gotten more players into the Hero System too, playing CRPGs does familiarize you with the ruleset if they are good.

It's not that he's ignorant of computers. He's the guy that has written Hero System since 5th and 6th edition starting in 2004. You don't understand how complex the game is. The basic assumption of the game is that everything is a special effect. Every weapon, armor, and power is built using the power system that has advantages and disadvantages. The difference between Cyclops' eye blast and a laser rifle is purely special effect as both are built using the Ranged Killing Attack. It's the advantages and disadvantages that highlights how they are different.

Here's an example of both a firearm and power for one of the characters in my setting book.

Combat Arms G-2 Gauss Revolver: (Total: 39 Active Cost, 11 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1 ½d6, Required Hands One-Handed (+0), Armor Piercing (+¼) (31 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1), Strength Minimum 10 (-½), 2 clips of 6 Charges (-½), Strength Minimum cannot Add/Subtract Damage (-½), Real Weapon (-¼), No Knockback (-¼), Beam (-¼) (Real Cost: 7) plus +1 with Ranged Combat (8 Active Points); OAF Durable (-1) (Real Cost: 4)

Cost: 6f 2) Psychic Flesh Ripping: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Mental Defense; +0), Alternate Combat Value (uses OMCV against DMCV; +¼), Line Of Sight (+½), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; +1), Does BODY (+1) (75 Active Points); Unified Power (-¼)

As you can see, just in these two items at how complex building things is in the system. OAF-Durable means Obvious Accessible Focus that is durable. Durability means it can break. OMCV is Offensive Mental Combat Value and DMCV is Defense Mental Combat Value. Normally, RKA's use normal Combat Values to determine if it hits. Does Body means that the attack removes hit points. Mental Attacks without the advantage can only do Stun damage. Psychic Flesh Ripping is part of a Multi-Power pool as well hence the 6f cost. The f stands for fixed. Finally, Attack Versus Alternate Defense shifts the damage from the original choice of Energy or Physical Defense to Mental Defense. Most characters can get decent armor that protects against energy and physical attacks, but lack anything that can stop Mental Attacks.

Everything is built using character points and experience is character points. You average 2-5 character points per adventure, so it's slow leveling. Oh there are no levels here. Just point values.

Here System 6th Edition is 794 pages which is split into two volumes. I'm not counting the covers here. When I said it was complex it was in regards to how everything fits together. It will never be a computer game due to said complexity.

 

[Alex]

I'm going to say that the 3d6 mechanic of Hero System is far superior to the 2d6 since it gives you a true bell curve distribution. 2d6 has the problem that the mean will always be 7 which is a failure in Classic Traveller. While 3d6 has 11 as the mean. Thus, you're character is more likely to succeed in tasks as you need an 11 or less for basic skills. Additional skill levels only increase the role under needed by 1 for every set amount of character points. I'd rather have my players succeeding more then them actually failing their skill rolls.

Well, this is easily solved by adding difficulties to different tasks. I mean, I do like that you can get an even 50/50 split with 3d6 (10- is 50% of chance, while on a 2d6 7- has around 58% chance of being rolled, while 6- is around 41%, no way to get an exact half). But you can still make sure players have a suitably good chance for more common things by simply adding to the target number (if we are in a roll under system) or to the dice (if roll over).

Still my main reason for liking that system is because I like that edge cases have a suitably rare chance of being rolled. I mean, the chances of rolling a 3, 4, 17 or 18, combined, is less than 5%, which is the chance of any single roll on a d20.

 

[JamesDixon]

I'm going to say that the 3d6 mechanic of Hero System is far superior to the 2d6 since it gives you a true bell curve distribution. 2d6 has the problem that the mean will always be 7 which is a failure in Classic Traveller. While 3d6 has 11 as the mean. Thus, you're character is more likely to succeed in tasks as you need an 11 or less for basic skills. Additional skill levels only increase the role under needed by 1 for every set amount of character points. I'd rather have my players succeeding more then them actually failing their skill rolls.

Well, this is easily solved by adding difficulties to different tasks. I mean, I do like that you can get an even 50/50 split with 3d6 (10- is 50% of chance, while on a 2d6 7- has around 58% chance of being rolled, while 6- is around 41%, no way to get an exact half). But you can still make sure players have a suitably good chance for more common things by simply adding to the target number (if we are in a roll under system) or to the dice (if roll over).

Still my main reason for liking that system is because I like that edge cases have a suitably rare chance of being rolled. I mean, the chances of rolling a 3, 4, 17 or 18, combined, is less than 5%, which is the chance of any single roll on a d20.

If you want to add modifiers to the mix then the 3d6 wins out again. Each +1 or -1 is 16.7% which is a far more controlled swing in the odds then in 2d6. That's the problem with non-bell curve rolling systems. They lack the reliability that the bell curve gives. They're also not very granular either.

 

[Falksi]

I prefer 3D6 to 2D6, simply because of the extra dimension it gives things.

 

[JamesDixon]

Here's the dice distribution for 3d6.

output 1 (10.50 / 2.96)
# %
3 0.46
4 1.39
5 2.78
6 4.63
7 6.94
8 9.72
9 11.57
10 12.50
11 12.50
12 11.57
13 9.72
14 6.94
15 4.63
16 2.78
17 1.39
18 0.46

In a roll under system like Hero, your players are more likely to succeed in tasks. Almost all skills are bought using (STAT/5)+9 formula. Stats in Hero range from 0 to 100 usually. Normal characters are limited to 20 in most of their stats. If you have a character that has a 20 in Dexterity all of their Combat Driving rolls are (20/5)+9=13 or less. This allows a character's attributes to directly impact their skill levels.

Say that your character just wants a passing familiarity with a skill. You can buy the skill at 2 points instead of the normal 3 which grants a roll of 8 or less. For another point, the character later on can be proficient with said skill.

Also, skill checks in Hero are made for stressful and/or timed situations. Most characters will not have to make any rolls to do simple things. Finally, a roll of a 3 is always a critical success while an 18 is a critical failure regardless of the skill's rating.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Shadowrun is XD6 based, depending on your skills, you get more dices and each dice is a success or a failure leading to different results depending on the global outcome.
There is also a dice reserve you can use when you feel like it but it doesn't refill until next combat or after you rest, I'm not sure.

I'm not going to explain it further because I didn't play it for decades and the cRPG adaptation is just a weak dumbed down version of it.

 

[JamesDixon]

Shadowrun is XD6 based, depending on your skills, you get more dices and each dice is a success or a failure leading to different results depending on the global outcome.
There is also a dice reserve you can use when you feel like it but it doesn't refill until next combat or after you rest, I'm not sure.

I'm not going to explain it further because I didn't play it for decades and the cRPG adaptation is just a weak dumbed down version of it.

WEG Star Wars is the same. You go from linear to bell curve the moment you hit 3d6+ in your pool.

 

[Alex]

Shadowrun is XD6 based, depending on your skills, you get more dices and each dice is a success or a failure leading to different results depending on the global outcome.
There is also a dice reserve you can use when you feel like it but it doesn't refill until next combat or after you rest, I'm not sure.

I'm not going to explain it further because I didn't play it for decades and the cRPG adaptation is just a weak dumbed down version of it.

This kind of system is usually called "dice pool". Other games that have also used something similar include Deadlands, World of Darkness games, WEG's Star Wars and quite a few others.

I am personally of two minds about dice pool systems. On one hand, I do find them interesting. One nice feature is that these systems can be open to a whole lot of interesting mechanics that play with how the dice are used. For instance, you have the pools you mentioned (which actually refresh on each combat round, at least in 3e). Again in Shadowrun, you could use karma points to re-roll any dices that were "failures", or in Burning Wheel you could use that to allow dice to "explode".

The big advantage I see of dice pools is that all these finicky parts can allow you to give different kinds of bonuses to different things; and make them matter in different ways rather than having everything matter by adding a flat bonus. Another interesting aspect is the idea of pools that you touched from Shadowrun. These pools are a good way to represent the limited capacity of a character to deal with threats. For instance, in Shadowrun, while in combat, you could divide your "combat pool" to aid both your attacks and defensive actions. This means that if you think you are going to be attacked by several people, you can save up most of your pool to aid dodging, and use only a few each dodge. If you are facing a very accurate enemy, you could instead save them up but use all of them at once. This creates an interesting mechanic of managing resources while still having a good connection to what is happening in the game world (the PC focusing on attacking or defending, the PC focusing on multiple enemies vs focusing on a single dangerous one).

The issue with dice pool systems, though, is that it can be hard to define how something affects a roll. The very finickiness of the system can work against it. If it is raining, should the difficulty of the roll be raised (difficulty is the number you need to beat on each dice to obtain a success)? Or should you get a flat penalty to the number of dice rolled? Maybe the rain should force you to re-roll one or two successes you obtain instead? It is possible to come up with a good system to applying bonuses and penalties; but it can be confusing to people new to it and even experienced people may have trouble with edge cases anyway. Another issue is that if you don't set up your system carefully, it can be easy for the probabilities to go askew fast. This was a frequent problem with these systems where "1"s rolled on dices might mean a critical failure.

By the way, if anyone wants to see what the probabilities of a particular system are, I highly recommend this website here.

 

[JamesDixon]

Shadowrun is XD6 based, depending on your skills, you get more dices and each dice is a success or a failure leading to different results depending on the global outcome.
There is also a dice reserve you can use when you feel like it but it doesn't refill until next combat or after you rest, I'm not sure.

I'm not going to explain it further because I didn't play it for decades and the cRPG adaptation is just a weak dumbed down version of it.

This kind of system is usually called "dice pool". Other games that have also used something similar include Deadlands, World of Darkness games, WEG's Star Wars and quite a few others.

I am personally of two minds about dice pool systems. On one hand, I do find them interesting. One nice feature is that these systems can be open to a whole lot of interesting mechanics that play with how the dice are used. For instance, you have the pools you mentioned (which actually refresh on each combat round, at least in 3e). Again in Shadowrun, you could use karma points to re-roll any dices that were "failures", or in Burning Wheel you could use that to allow dice to "explode".

The big advantage I see of dice pools is that all these finicky parts can allow you to give different kinds of bonuses to different things; and make them matter in different ways rather than having everything matter by adding a flat bonus. Another interesting aspect is the idea of pools that you touched from Shadowrun. These pools are a good way to represent the limited capacity of a character to deal with threats. For instance, in Shadowrun, while in combat, you could divide your "combat pool" to aid both your attacks and defensive actions. This means that if you think you are going to be attacked by several people, you can save up most of your pool to aid dodging, and use only a few each dodge. If you are facing a very accurate enemy, you could instead save them up but use all of them at once. This creates an interesting mechanic of managing resources while still having a good connection to what is happening in the game world (the PC focusing on attacking or defending, the PC focusing on multiple enemies vs focusing on a single dangerous one).

The issue with dice pool systems, though, is that it can be hard to define how something affects a roll. The very finickiness of the system can work against it. If it is raining, should the difficulty of the roll be raised (difficulty is the number you need to beat on each dice to obtain a success)? Or should you get a flat penalty to the number of dice rolled? Maybe the rain should force you to re-roll one or two successes you obtain instead? It is possible to come up with a good system to applying bonuses and penalties; but it can be confusing to people new to it and even experienced people may have trouble with edge cases anyway. Another issue is that if you don't set up your system carefully, it can be easy for the probabilities to go askew fast. This was a frequent problem with these systems where "1"s rolled on dices might mean a critical failure.

By the way, if anyone wants to see what the probabilities of a particular system are, I highly recommend this website here.

I know in WEG Star Wars that when you hit 7+d6 in a single skill or attribute the entire system breaks. At that point, nothing can really threaten a character.

 

[Alex]

Shadowrun is XD6 based, depending on your skills, you get more dices and each dice is a success or a failure leading to different results depending on the global outcome.
There is also a dice reserve you can use when you feel like it but it doesn't refill until next combat or after you rest, I'm not sure.

I'm not going to explain it further because I didn't play it for decades and the cRPG adaptation is just a weak dumbed down version of it.

This kind of system is usually called "dice pool". Other games that have also used something similar include Deadlands, World of Darkness games, WEG's Star Wars and quite a few others.

I am personally of two minds about dice pool systems. On one hand, I do find them interesting. One nice feature is that these systems can be open to a whole lot of interesting mechanics that play with how the dice are used. For instance, you have the pools you mentioned (which actually refresh on each combat round, at least in 3e). Again in Shadowrun, you could use karma points to re-roll any dices that were "failures", or in Burning Wheel you could use that to allow dice to "explode".

The big advantage I see of dice pools is that all these finicky parts can allow you to give different kinds of bonuses to different things; and make them matter in different ways rather than having everything matter by adding a flat bonus. Another interesting aspect is the idea of pools that you touched from Shadowrun. These pools are a good way to represent the limited capacity of a character to deal with threats. For instance, in Shadowrun, while in combat, you could divide your "combat pool" to aid both your attacks and defensive actions. This means that if you think you are going to be attacked by several people, you can save up most of your pool to aid dodging, and use only a few each dodge. If you are facing a very accurate enemy, you could instead save them up but use all of them at once. This creates an interesting mechanic of managing resources while still having a good connection to what is happening in the game world (the PC focusing on attacking or defending, the PC focusing on multiple enemies vs focusing on a single dangerous one).

The issue with dice pool systems, though, is that it can be hard to define how something affects a roll. The very finickiness of the system can work against it. If it is raining, should the difficulty of the roll be raised (difficulty is the number you need to beat on each dice to obtain a success)? Or should you get a flat penalty to the number of dice rolled? Maybe the rain should force you to re-roll one or two successes you obtain instead? It is possible to come up with a good system to applying bonuses and penalties; but it can be confusing to people new to it and even experienced people may have trouble with edge cases anyway. Another issue is that if you don't set up your system carefully, it can be easy for the probabilities to go askew fast. This was a frequent problem with these systems where "1"s rolled on dices might mean a critical failure.

By the way, if anyone wants to see what the probabilities of a particular system are, I highly recommend this website here.

I know in WEG Star Wars that when you hit 7+d6 in a single skill or attribute the entire system breaks. At that point, nothing can really threaten a character.

Unfortunately, I've never had the chance of seeing the system in action. Shadowrun (at least up to third edition, I am not too familiar with what came later) avoided adding flat bonuses to dice rolls, but worked with a "target number" system. So things could either detract from the TN (which would be a bonus, since you need to roll over) or add to it (making it a penalty).

The system still worked because despite using d6s, the dice would "explode". That is, if you rolled a 6, you would re-roll that dice and add the result to the 6 rolled previously. This was recursive, allowing in theory any TN to be reachable; and since ST used so many dice, it wasn't impossible to beat even very high TNs. The system is still a bit clunky, though. For instance, if something added +1 to a TN, it wouldn't have any effect at all if that TN was at 6 already (since a 6 is always at least a 7). Even if you fixed the dice rolls to account for that, though, you would still have some clunkyness from how every time a TN increased so that a new explosion was required, the chance of rolling it on any single dice would change how it decreased. A simple example using d10s would be: the chance of rolling 7+ on a d10 is 40%. 8+ is 30%, 9+ is 20% and 10+ 90%. Rolling an 11+ on exploding dice adjusted for value however is a 9% chance. 12+ is 8%, 13+ is 7% and so on, up to 19+ which is 1%. To roll 20+ is a 0.9%, and the way the probability decreases changes like that every time you need a new explosion.

 

[Orud]

I don't dislike or like d20 per se. It boils down to how you want to distribute the randomness that players encounter; 1 dice will have an equal distribution of every possible outcome, while multiple dice increase the chance of the average outcome. Anything else boils down to how good of a ruleset is built around it, and how it is used by players/dm's (in my opinion).

E.g. :

• d20 from D&D/PF is fine, but can be ruined (or saved, depending on your pov) by itemization, encounter design or extended rules like epic levels. It's why I like Kingmaker more than Wrath of the Righteous, or NWN below epic levels.
• d100 from PoE is something really liked, because of the extra breathing room it created for itemization, only for it to be shat on by class/spell design.

The dice head count matters little, it's how they're used that does.

 

[JarlFrank]

The thing about d20 is that it gives each number the same chance of rolling.
2d6 and 3d6 tend towards averages more, which means you see fewer critical successes and critical failures.

Which system you prefer really depends on how much randomness you like there to be in your game.

 

[PorkaMorka]

Dominions shows that you can actually run a pretty interesting fantasy simulation, just using 2d6 open ended

From the manual:

Dominions Random Number (DRN)
Most Dominions game mechanisms use something called the Dominions Random Number (DRN). When a random number is called for, the number used is actually a DRN. This is a roll of two six-sided dice (2d6) but with an additional bonus: if any individual die roll is “6,” one is subtracted, and then that die is re-rolled and added to the result. This is referred to as an “open-ended” 2d6 roll.

Example: The game calls for a DRN. Two dice are rolled and they come up 2,6. Because one of the dice was a “6,” one is subtracted from the total (making 7), and the die is rolled again. But this die is also a 6. So one is subtracted from the total (now up to 12) and a die is rolled again. It is a 4. The final result for this DRN is 16. Note that if both original dice came up as 6, both would be re-rolled and added as above. If a die keeps coming up 6, it keeps getting re-rolled and added, which can very occasionally lead to large numbers.

Dominions has a lot of situations where something is very unlikely to happen, like a militia soldier hitting an ethereal monster. However, in the real world of Dominions, very few things are actually impossible. To model this fact as closely as can be, the Dominions Random Number was created. With it, it is always possible for such an event to occur, which would not be the case if the roll was not openended.
...
Sometimes the manual will state that a given effect requires a morale check (or some other ability check) “against” some number. This is simply a way of saying that a unit’s morale (or other ability) + DRN is compared to the stated number + DRN. So if a unit has to “take a morale check against 12,” this means the unit’s morale + a DRN is compared to 12 + DRN. If the unit has a morale of 10, the chart above would indicate that the chance of this unit passing the check is 30%.

Often two units are rolling 2d6 open ended + some number and comparing them; attack + 2d6 vs defense + 2d6, etc

I'm not sure if this is better than d20 but it does give interesting results for a computer strategy game, it's predictable enough to plan around, but not so predictable that it is boring. Watching the battles is extremely interesting, even though it's all just dice rolls. And using the same system to resolve a variety of checks does make it easier to understand than a bunch of unrelated mechanics would.

 

[JamesDixon]

Unfortunately, I've never had the chance of seeing the system in action. Shadowrun (at least up to third edition, I am not too familiar with what came later) avoided adding flat bonuses to dice rolls, but worked with a "target number" system. So things could either detract from the TN (which would be a bonus, since you need to roll over) or add to it (making it a penalty).

The system still worked because despite using d6s, the dice would "explode". That is, if you rolled a 6, you would re-roll that dice and add the result to the 6 rolled previously. This was recursive, allowing in theory any TN to be reachable; and since ST used so many dice, it wasn't impossible to beat even very high TNs. The system is still a bit clunky, though. For instance, if something added +1 to a TN, it wouldn't have any effect at all if that TN was at 6 already (since a 6 is always at least a 7). Even if you fixed the dice rolls to account for that, though, you would still have some clunkyness from how every time a TN increased so that a new explosion was required, the chance of rolling it on any single dice would change how it decreased. A simple example using d10s would be: the chance of rolling 7+ on a d10 is 40%. 8+ is 30%, 9+ is 20% and 10+ 90%. Rolling an 11+ on exploding dice adjusted for value however is a 9% chance. 12+ is 8%, 13+ is 7% and so on, up to 19+ which is 1%. To roll 20+ is a 0.9%, and the way the probability decreases changes like that every time you need a new explosion.

I had two of the limited edition Shadowrun 1st printing hard covers. My worthless brother stole both of them from.

WEG Star Wars 2E had the wild die which functions like you described.