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Daggerfall is totally awesome

Thal

Augur
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
413
Well, now that I've cleared and managed to backtrack to the exit (!) of the first procedurally generated dungeon, I can see where the reputation for nightmarish mazes comes from. The map is actually okay, not great, but low polycount and the 90s interface for navigating it makes it terrible to use. Any newbie coming to this game, take my advice and make a teleportation spell asap and cast the Mark when you enter the dungeon. You will save yourselves from a massive amount of tedium. I can also see where the bad reputation for Daggerfall dungeons comes from. It's just a web of corridors and rooms with pretty much nothing in them. I did discover some rooms with valuable treasure there, meaning exploration was worth something, but on the whole the place was pretty uninteresting. I don't wish to be too harsh, I raise my hat for their ambition. And I'd like to see if procedural generation could be done properly today.

Turns out I can't complete the quest though. I was sent to kill an atronach, but now that I'm back at the mages guild, the quest giver won't talk to me. Won't give me another quest either. I think it may be, because I accidentally loitered indoors, and my reputation declined too low. I'm pretty sure I didn't run out of time, though. In fact I have over 10 days left or so. Is there any way to solve this, or am I doomed to fail the quest?
 

Hellion

Arcane
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
1,582
After a certain point you'll find yourself only accepting quests that don't require a dungeon crawl by save/loading before talking to any quest givers, it gets really tiresome eventually. If you can't acquire a teleportation spell for whatever reason, I've found that a simple dungeon tactic is to just keep exploring towards the right or left (always going towards the left when at a crossroads, for example) until you eventually reach your objective, and then back-track to the exit by going back the other way.

As for the quest, are you sure you've killed the correct Atronach and not just a random spawn? You'll normally receive a message ("The attronach falls to the ground, time to return to the Mages Guild" or whatever) when killing the correct enemy and not some other random enemy of the same type that wanders around the dungeon.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
A game with the thrills of DF dungeon crawling without the later tedium would be perfect.

I think insuring a chance for good loot would come of a dungeon crawl would make up for the danger, DFs procedural crap and the nature of almost all TES game gear being non-special prevents.
 

King Crispy

Too bad I have no queen.
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Staff Member
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Strap Yourselves In
When Daggerfall was first announced (this was before HTML-based internet) I kept up on its progress through the various computer gaming magazines at the time such as PC Gamer and CGW. Bethesda had a BBS back then and at one point they started a thread in which you could ask the developers -- this was pre-Todd's ascendancy and way before Pete arrived -- any questions you wanted regarding the game. I was working for a major motherboard manufacturer then in Fremont, CA. I remember asking whether or not we'd be able to climb trees (lol) and I fantasized about being able to do that and rain fireballs down on enemies below.

Anyway, the development time slowly passed and finally they started accepting pre-orders. Of course, I signed up for the Collector's Edition and I'll never forget the day the game finally shipped. I was so excited that I took the day off from work and drove to the local FedEx hub to intercept the package prior to it being delivered to my apartment. I couldn't believe I finally had the thing in my hands as I drove home to lock myself away while immersing myself in Tamriel.

With eager hands I carefully ripped open that shipping box to have that MAGNIFICENT Daggerfall gamebox with the Underking staring at me in glorious full color. I then reverently opened up the game box, gently removed its contents, and deftly inserted the CD into my now-ancient but then-cutting-edge PC. Ah, installing without a hitch. Oh my the opening screen. Dear Lord the character creation. Thrill and chills running through the opening prison dungeon. Then the piece de resistance, stepping out into the snow of the largest gameworld still on record for any PC game to this day, with no idea what to do next and no notion what awaited me.

This was one of the greatest moments of my long PC gaming life.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
7,938
I was working for a major motherboard manufacturer then in Fremont, CA. I remember asking whether or not we'd be able to climb trees (lol) and I fantasized about being able to do that and rain fireballs down on enemies below.

Interesting insight into your mind there, Crisp.
 
Joined
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Messages
1,875,967
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Turns out I can't complete the quest though. I was sent to kill an atronach, but now that I'm back at the mages guild, the quest giver won't talk to me. Won't give me another quest either. I think it may be, because I accidentally loitered indoors, and my reputation declined too low. I'm pretty sure I didn't run out of time, though. In fact I have over 10 days left or so. Is there any way to solve this, or am I doomed to fail the quest?

Those quests require you to kill an specific enemy, could be that you killed the wrong atronach :M

edit: alternative solution

OR.....(Assuming you have "cheatmode 1" added to the z.cfg file), go back to the dungeon and hit the [ or ] keys until you find (and kill) the enemy (again).
 

jewboy

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
657
Location
Oumuamua
The nice thing about Daggerfall was that Bethesda actually at least partly delivered on the hype. I remember being super hyped about Stonekeep before release and you can imagine how that turned out. Bethesda was just wrong about the open world thing being interesting instead of just a hiking simulator. Arena was also kind of fun, but there also wasn't much of a story there. I did not find Morrowind fun at all and I can't remember why. These games all should really have had a turn based mode.
 

Thal

Augur
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
413
Turns out I can't complete the quest though. I was sent to kill an atronach, but now that I'm back at the mages guild, the quest giver won't talk to me. Won't give me another quest either. I think it may be, because I accidentally loitered indoors, and my reputation declined too low. I'm pretty sure I didn't run out of time, though. In fact I have over 10 days left or so. Is there any way to solve this, or am I doomed to fail the quest?

Those quests require you to kill an specific enemy, could be that you killed the wrong atronach :M

edit: alternative solution

OR.....(Assuming you have "cheatmode 1" added to the z.cfg file), go back to the dungeon and hit the [ or ] keys until you find (and kill) the enemy (again).

It was the only Atronach in the dungeon, and spawned a text refering to mages guild on death. I'll consider the cheat mode though.

Edit: It worked, thanks!
 
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Tweed

Professional Kobold
Patron
Joined
Sep 27, 2018
Messages
2,838
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harsh circumstances
Pathfinder: Wrath
Another plus of Daggerfall are the patch notes, some of my personal favorites are:

The skeleton no longer walks backwards.

Sleeping on a ship or in your own house no longer summons the city guards.

Having more than 63 soul gems no longer crashes the item maker.

The error #666 has been removed. The error reported instead of this is the actual error the program intended to report.
 

thesheeep

Arcane
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Tampere, Finland
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Daggerfall is pretty great, and I think more games should draw some inspiration from it.

Not from the UI and the weird way to swing the weapon, though, please :lol:

I really do need to replay it, but I kinda want to wait for Daggerfall Unity just to see how different that will feel.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,157
Character creation system was also fun. Broken and easy to abuse (but on the plus side, also easy to manipulate to make the game more challenging to you, slow leveling speed etc), but entertaining to play around with.

And dat atmosphere.
 

Eggs is eggs

Learned
Joined
Mar 12, 2015
Messages
256
I love the live action opening. This was the tail end of that era in the 90s when live action cut scenes were all the rage (see also: Resident Evil, Lands of Lore 2, 7th Guest, etc.)
 

mfkndggrfll

Learned
Shitposter Bethestard
Joined
Mar 21, 2018
Messages
546
Character creation system was also fun. Broken and easy to abuse (but on the plus side, also easy to manipulate to make the game more challenging to you, slow leveling speed etc), but entertaining to play around with.

And dat atmosphere.

Actually wouldn't it be harder to level faster? Because of level scaling and stuff.
 

Doctor Sbaitso

SO, TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBLEMS.
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Meh. After buying it and playing a few hours I remember thinking "fuck will nobody ever make a first person RPG as good as Ultima Underworld?

The answer to this day is no.
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,773
Location
Australia
Character creation system was also fun. Broken and easy to abuse (but on the plus side, also easy to manipulate to make the game more challenging to you, slow leveling speed etc), but entertaining to play around with.

And dat atmosphere.

Actually wouldn't it be harder to level faster? Because of level scaling and stuff.

The level scaling only really applies to encounters, and you can still bump into Ancient Vampires as low as Level 6, and that's ignoring the pre-placed ones in main quest dungeons. Certain dungeon types will also kick your ass at a low level. Even at Level 3, I had a nightmarish experience going through an Orc Stronghold where the game would spawn Shamans whenever I rested in an attempt to completely fuck me up. Vampire Haunts are similarly nightmarish for obvious reasons. So levelling quickly means that you have quicker access to better gear due to random drop rates etc. and the difficulty of dungeons arguably declines as you get better gear, even though you encounter more dangerous enemies.
 

EldarEldrad

Savant
Joined
Sep 13, 2017
Messages
253
Location
Russia
After more than a week of play I still think Daggerfall is awesome.

Currently, my character has 10 level. The only problem I have with game is my own perfectionism. I suppose I can't finish Daggerfall per se, so I imply some restrictions when I stop with Daggerfall and then switch to Morrowind. They are: complete main quest, summon all Daedras (doesn't really know if it is worth), gain maximum rank in 6 factions (looks like player can only join 6 factions per playthrough, maybe I'm wrong), find and read all books.

Dungeon crawling is still fun, but I stuck with artifact quest - there is that dungeon with red door teleports and I can't still find a witch there. Hope, I'll return there sometimes. Is the any way to break/walk-through wall? Or can quest-related stuff spawn in unaccessable area?
 

Funposter

Arcane
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
1,773
Location
Australia
Dungeon crawling is still fun, but I stuck with artifact quest - there is that dungeon with red door teleports and I can't still find a witch there. Hope, I'll return there sometimes. Is the any way to break/walk-through wall? Or can quest-related stuff spawn in unaccessable area?

Quest objectives can occasionally (and I mean VERY occasionally, like not often at all) spawn outside of the accessible area (usually in a room with no connection), but the mention of red-brick teleporters makes me think that you're in a dungeon which is using the modules from the Castle Wayrest dungeons. It's pretty elaborate, but there is a set path to follow to get where you need to go. Alternatively, you can activate cheat mode in the ini file and cycle through quest spawn locations using [ and ] in the DOS version, or use the console command "tele2qspawn" if you're playing in Unity. Sometimes it's the best way to deal with a dungeon that you're sick of after an hour of exploring. Usually you missed a door 40 minutes ago and unnecessarily explored a huge amount.
 
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Falksi

Arcane
Joined
Feb 14, 2017
Messages
10,538
Location
Nottingham
It's just the wrong side of dated for me. I thrive on Morrowind, but Daggerfall has just a few too many clunky elements for me to bare with.

Absolutely love the music though.
 

Thal

Augur
Joined
Apr 4, 2015
Messages
413
Now that I've gone through several dungeons, I can say that the dungeon crawling is fairly enjoyable in this game. In fact, Daggerfall dungeons are better than the ones in Skyrim and Oblivion: underwater areas, actual exploration, elevators, levers, SECRET DOORS. You actually have to think in the dungeons, namely the navigation. The automap is still clunky but, I've discovered that the best way to use it is to stay in the top down perspective. If you scroll down and up carefully, you can spot unexplored pathways fairly easily. Secret doors will also be visible in the map. The exploration is fairly enjoyable this way. However, the experience is still very one-sided, since 99% percent of the time the enemies are not even a hindrance. Unless the monster is immune, a couple of hits are enough to kill it. Enemies only exist to drain resources, but since you can rest inside a dungeon, you are rarely in a real danger. I don't mind the recycled assets, since I approach this in same way as playing Nethack. The dungeon is a gamey abstraction, not a real place. It doesn't have to be logical, as long as it makes you think. However, the very bare bones combat system will leave the experience lacking. Games where the content is procedurally generated should lean heavily on their systems to make the gameplay enjoyable. Roguelikes like Nethack excel on this, as does the best game of all time: UFO: Enemy Unknown. Daggerfall, while being a good game, doesn't come even close to UFO for example, because of lacking moment to moment gameplay. Roguelikes rely on the lethal nature of the dungeon, interactivity and the large number of potential strategies, while UFO relies on its tactical combat system. To my present knowledge Daggerfall relies on massive landmass and endless dungeons. That is, more of the same. The problem is that the same is okay, not excellent.

Even so, Daggerfall creates very compelling gameplay moments. Imagine my satisfaction when I had mapped a large dungeon full of undead, entered a section with caves and heard familiar grunts of what could only be the giant I was sent to kill. I knew that after a long and arduous search, my next victim was finally near. By listening the grunts and exploring the caves I deduced that the giant had to be somewhere below me, so I backtracked back to the tunnels and entered the cave through another entrance, after finding the switch to open the portcullis.

Then I discovered that the giant was in fact camping with an ancient vampire. After a couple of reloads I accepted that vampire was immune to my elven steel and just quickly stabbed the giant in the gut and, with the vampire closing in on fast, escaped with a teleportation spell. The Knights of the Dragon cannot care what they don't know about. They had sent me only for the giant after all.

Skyrim and Oblivion haven't been able to replicate this experience. The saddest part is that Bethesda doesn't even try. The present technology and Bethesda's massive resources would easily allow them to create a compelling dungeon crawling experience with all the hallmarks of Daggerfall that I've described, and in fact improve it. How sad it is that verticality was better used in Daggerfall than in Skyrim? They had all this experience to build their games on and they let it go. Also, in the mid-90s, combat couldn't realistically be simulated any better that it was. Now, those limitations are gone. Hell, even Skyrim's current combat system would be enough for an excellent game, if the dungeons were more compelling. I'm in the camp that supports the transition from Morrowind's stat based system to the action based one of Oblivion and Skyrim. You can only go so far with a stat based abstraction, when you try to simulate the rest of the game. Archery especially was dumb as fuck in Morrowind.

Comparison between Daggerfall and Morrowind isn't as easy. Morrowind doesn't have secret doors, elevators, switches (IIRC) and the dungeons don't require nearly as much thinking. However, its much more advanced technology allows it to use elevated surfaces and underwater areas better to create SECRET AREAS. Morrowind is often criticized for its small dungeons, but I think this criticism is unwarranted. Some of those dungeons are actually quite large and have very good loot hidden inside. The player will simply have to explore the world to find them. Think VVardenfell as one big dungeon and Morrowind's superiority becomes apparent. Obviously, the worldspace, worldbuilding (the dunmer culture), plot, etc, are miles ahead of Daggerfall. Morrowind is a better a game on the whole, but it has some glaring flaws, some of which is shares with Daggerfall. It's TOO EASY, exploitable, combat is boring, and many (most?) quests are total fillers.

Interestingly enough, Daggerfall is actually a very casual experience. It's very easy to just pick up the game, complete a 20-30 minute dungeon crawl, and put it down. I couldn't ever imagine playing this hours and hours in one sitting. It's just too repetitive for that.
 
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