Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,235
I played this to level 3 or so, found the experience underwhelming in comparison to every other 90s FPS classics. Does it get better? Star Wars dweebs do not comment, you already have shit taste. I want to hear from hardcore gamers.
 

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,131
Yes. I also found the initial levels to be a bit underwhelming, but later on the become interestingly elaborate and exploring them feels nice.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,235
Yes the level design is one of my primary concerns. It's not terrible so far but certainly not classic 90s stuff.
 

Necroscope

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2012
Messages
1,985
Location
Polska
Codex 2014
I played both Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy to death online, I doubt they will make anything better during my lifetime. But it's all in the past now, I don't think I will play any of these ever again.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,101
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Edit for clarification: I am talking about JK1 here, not 2 or JA.

I am an (old) Star Wars dweeb, and I replayed through it about a year ago.

It’s good, not great.

Level design is decent, but quite linear for its time. Some of the levels are fairly large, but they often feel empty. Lightsaber combat is clunky as fuck. Story is absolute shit, even for Star Wars.

There’s good variety among weapons, force powers, and enemies, so there is fun to be had, but it takes too long to get going, and there’s too much focus on creating a “cinematic” experience.

I’m also planning on replaying Mysteries of the Sith again at some point (which I remember thinking was a straight-up improvement over the base game when it launched), but it’s been almost 25 years since I played that last, so I can’t comment.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,101
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,871
Lightsaber combat is definitely pretty bad in JK1, but I think the level design is really good, with alternate pathways, shortcuts that you can activate by being creative with force jump and completely optional areas that lead to great rewards. Overall levels feel organic and the design makes sense from a practical standpoint. It does take awhile to get going, though.

I never played Mysteries of the Sith back in the day. Looking forward to it.
 

passerby

Arcane
Joined
Nov 16, 2016
Messages
2,788
Yes the level design is one of my primary concerns. It's not terrible so far but certainly not classic 90s stuff.

The level design is the best thing about this game, the levels are amazing, they've nailed this epic bombastic scale of star wars setting, they're so huge that you can get lost on some levels and there are the most fun platforming sections in an FPS ever, cool secret areas to find.

The shooting and combat in general are garbage though, but the level design kept me going and I do not regret finishing this game, I've played it 10 years ago.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,871
While I agree that combat is definitely weaker than exploration in this game, I wouldn't call it 'garbage'. The encounters aren't inspired for the most part but the game does have its moments - such as the optional Krell dragon on level 8, for example. Lightsaber would eventually get fleshed out in later games, JK was an acceptable introduction to that aspect of gameplay.

If anyone who reads this is starting a new playthrough, please remember to cap the FPS at a multiple of 47 due to a timing quirk - playing it at 60 will result in sped-up weapon swap animations and a stuttery camera.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,101
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
I don't know, I disagree about the level design. Don't get me wrong, it's often good, but it's very rarely great.
The best levels do definitely have some non-linearity, but they often end up empty and leave you scratching your head as a result. Take mission 6, for example; it's the first level in the game that offers you some freedom in how to approach your goal (getting into the tower), but it also is basically a giant empty courtyard filled with copy-pasted mooks, and there are certain things you have to do to accomplish your goal.
And the lightsaber duels are straight-up terrible; they should never have made it into the game.
 

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,578
Location
The Centre of the World
The game isn't the best ever (especially in terms of graphics), but I really don't see what the problem is. ‘Every other 90s FPS classic’ includes things like Half-Life and Sin and Unreal, games where the main interest is all this worthless, peripheral, superficial stuff like story and interactivity and atmosphere rather than muh classic Dewm level design, so unless you think those games are also underwhelming, what's wrong with Dark Forces 2?

I don't know, I disagree about the level design. Don't get me wrong, it's often good, but it's very rarely great.
The best levels do definitely have some non-linearity, but they often end up empty and leave you scratching your head as a result. Take mission 6, for example; it's the first level in the game that offers you some freedom in how to approach your goal (getting into the tower), but it also is basically a giant empty courtyard filled with copy-pasted mooks, and there are certain things you have to do to accomplish your goal.
Since when was a game's requiring you to play it a bad thing?
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,235
Half-Life and Sin and Unreal, games where the main interest is all this worthless, peripheral, superficial stuff like story and interactivity and atmosphere rather than muh classic Dewm level design, so unless you think those games are also underwhelming, what's wrong with Dark Forces 2?

1. Nobody said all that was worthless, just that gameplay comes first.
2. Interaction in any form is gameplay.
3. Those elements may be the "main interest" to you, but not to me. Those games still have pretty good gameplay and gameplay-centric design, otherwise they wouldn't get a second glance from me. After the initial walking sim intros (with some cool interactivity) they're each non-stop "Run Shoot Think Live" action, perhaps with the occasional 30 second interlude (talking to a scientist, watching a setpiece, optionally reading a log).
If Half-life was all walking sim nobody would have batted an eye. Its legacy is owed to its gameplay as much as it is its ulterior elements, just faggots such as yourself (and there's many of your kind) like to pretend otherwise for whatever deluded reason. I think it's in shame and self-loathing that they're playing video games at the crux of the matter, as well as thinking that because those elements have long-established academic merit and gameplay does not then gameplay is not worth talking about if they want their psuedo-intellectual cred among their peers. It's very common to see "critics" and "fans" go all-in immersion/atmosphere/story/themes while disregarding or ignoring the importance of gameplay, which is pathetic and a disservice to the art they're analyzing. Gameplay is what gives games their unique form of engagement and expression as a medium.
4. Are you an Errant Signal fan by any chance (see above)?
 
Last edited:

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,734
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
If Half-life was all walking sim nobody would have batted an eye. Its legacy is owed to its ulterior elements as much as it is its gameplay, just faggots such as yourself (and there's many of your kind) like to pretend otherwise for whatever deluded reason. I think it's in shame and self-loathing that they're playing video games at the crux of the matter. It's very common to see people go all-in immersion/atmosphere/story/themes while disregarding the importance of gameplay, which is pathetic and a disservice to the art they're analyzing.

There is a habit on the Codex of blaming HL for everything that's wrong with modern FPS. I've never thought that's really fair, as HL was enjoyable and if Valve hadn't started the big trend of set pieces then someone else would have.

Blame the bad imitators rather than the originator I always say.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,235
Agreed. Though (obviously) more the people behind the imitators are to blame, suddenly striving to create more "mature" and realistic games and then maybe they'll receive approval from the people close to them; that they'll think their job is a worthwhile contribution to society and/or the arts, as well as the fans that pedestalized Half-Life (a good game for sure) as being more valuable and revolutionary than it actually was just because of some decent storytelling and spectacle. Meanwhile every Looking Glass game is being ignored in the corner by comparison. Too much of that pesky inhibiting unacademic gameplay present in those games. Fuck knows why Unreal was too ignored by comparison when it has a similar build-up and storytelling. You don't play as a theoretical physicist in a scientific backdrop I guess, and then it's more traditional gameplay after the intro as opposed to all the cool setpieces of Half-Life (which are cool first playthrough, but don't make for much longevity).
 
Last edited:

schru

Arcane
Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
1,131
Take mission 6, for example; it's the first level in the game that offers you some freedom in how to approach your goal (getting into the tower), but it also is basically a giant empty courtyard filled with copy-pasted mooks, and there are certain things you have to do to accomplish your goal.
It was exactly after level 6/7 that I started really to enjoy the game.

Ash, did you play the first Dark Forces? The combat is rather simplistic, albeit satisfying due to the sounds and animations, however, it is the level design and the old SW films-like atmosphere the locations evoke that make it really impressive. It gets a little boring somewhere in the last few levels, but it's definitely worth playing.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,235
Nah. I generally stay away from anything Star Wars, but as a 90s FPS it like its sequel had been on my radar, just as super low priority. However I have played near every 90s FPS so the time had come, but I decided upon the sequel first for...specific reasons I won't go into here. I'll get around to it at some point. Thanks for the encouragement to try it.
 

Morenatsu.

Liturgist
Joined
May 6, 2016
Messages
2,578
Location
The Centre of the World
Half-Life and Sin and Unreal, games where the main interest is all this worthless, peripheral, superficial stuff like story and interactivity and atmosphere rather than muh classic Dewm level design, so unless you think those games are also underwhelming, what's wrong with Dark Forces 2?

1. Nobody said all that was worthless, just that gameplay comes first.
2. Interaction in any form is gameplay.
3. Those elements may be the "main interest" to you, but not to me. Those games still have pretty good gameplay and gameplay-centric design, otherwise they wouldn't get a second glance from me. After the initial walking sim intros (with some cool interactivity) they're each non-stop "Run Shoot Think Live" action, perhaps with the occasional 30 second interlude (talking to a scientist, watching a setpiece, optionally reading a log).
If Half-life was all walking sim nobody would have batted an eye. Its legacy is owed to its gameplay as much as it is its ulterior elements, just faggots such as yourself (and there's many of your kind) like to pretend otherwise for whatever deluded reason. I think it's in shame and self-loathing that they're playing video games at the crux of the matter, as well as thinking that because those elements have long-established academic merit and gameplay does not then gameplay is not worth talking about if they want their psuedo-intellectual cred among their peers. It's very common to see "critics" and "fans" go all-in immersion/atmosphere/story/themes while disregarding or ignoring the importance of gameplay, which is pathetic and a disservice to the art they're analyzing. Gameplay is what gives games their unique form of engagement and expression as a medium.
4. Are you an Errant Signal fan by any chance (see above)?
1. I care about all aspects of a game, of which gameplay is only one. It is true that it comes first, but the other aspects are required as well. If one fails, the rest suffer for it. Though which aspects end up mattering most depends to some extent on the kind of game.
2. This technically true. But how much of that becomes meaningless if we ignore everything except ‘gameplay’?
3. Cool rant, but you're talking to the wrong person. I'm not interested in masturbatory story-wanking sessions.
4. No, I don't watch Errant Retard.

My only point was that Dark Forces 2 is no different from those games, aside from the worse graphics.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
I played this to level 3 or so, found the experience underwhelming in comparison to every other 90s FPS classics. Does it get better? Star Wars dweebs do not comment, you already have shit taste. I want to hear from hardcore gamers.

I was hooked right from the first level.

Yes, the game gets better, but you should have noticed that the level design is already above average from the get go.

The first time i played the game was from a demo in a magazine CD which only had the first level in it and i liked it so much i ended up replaying it several times. The only time that happened was on the demo of Deus Ex.

Some aspects of the game are average but level design is among the best in a shooter, right at the very top of the scale.

The visuals and the shooting were below par even back then but it wasn't terrible. Force powers are fun too.

Not a Star Wars nerd but they nail the atmosphere of the films in this game so well that's actually notable too. The Raven games fall short in that regard.
 
Last edited:

LarryTyphoid

Scholar
Joined
Sep 16, 2021
Messages
2,233
Been playing these games recently. JK1 got even more fun when you realize how useful force pull is. You can disarm every enemy and cut them down with the saber no problem, no expending any resources. Can't do it safely all the time, of course, but that's what makes it balanced. I really hated Jedi Outcast at first but I started playing it again on Jedi Master difficulty and it's pretty fun. When you accept the fact that your weapons are extremely inaccurate until you get the saber, then you start to learn when and when not to use the E-11, and when it's appropriate to use explosives. I hated how the enemies moved around all the time but it just makes it more satisfying to nail them or catch them unaware. And the lack of accuracy becomes a non-issue when you get force powers because you can easily immobilize groups with force push or pull. I don't like how they changed force pull, though; in the original all it did was yank the weapons out of enemies' hands, but you could do it from a pretty long distance. In Outcast, it knocks enemies down just like push, and removes their weapons, but the range is really small so there's no reason to pull instead of push because you're almost always going to be killing the enemy immediately after pushing/pulling them. I don't think it removes grenade belts from the grenade throwing enemies like it did in JK1, either. It was really satisfying to disarm the rocket launcher enemies in Mysteries of the Sith because those guys can fuck you up on hard mode.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom