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Dark Sun Series

octavius

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Thanks. Some more questions:
Does spells have casting time and if so are they interruptable?
How does the game treat stunned, paralyzed or held characters? Can they be insta killed, like in the Gold Box games? Or are they just "sitting ducks" like in the IE games?
Any spells that are useless?

Any bugs or "undocumented design features" I should know before playing?

Any class level limits for any of the races?

Can multi- or dual-classed Preservers use magic while wearing armour?

Clerics seem useless, apart from their ability to Turn Undead. They can only cast Cosmos spells up to lvl 3, they can't choose Cosmos as their sphere and yet most of the lvl 4+ spells are Cosmos spells? How does that compute?

Is backstabbing as useful as in the Gold Box and IE games? Can a Fighter/Thief backstab while wearing heavy armour, or is he restricted to leather?

Apart from Rangers getting spells at about lvl 8 there doesn't seem to be any difference between Rangers and Fighters? And what are the Ranger's special abilities? "Heavy armor interferes with their special abilities".

Also, don't transfer your guys to the second game because it doubles all enemy hit points, effectively decreasing your damage by half.

Really? That's a bizarre design decision. Would have been better to nerf the characters somewhat if the designers were worried they would be too powerful.
 

Aurelius

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Also, don't transfer your guys to the second game because it doubles all enemy hit points, effectively decreasing your damage by half.

Really? That's a bizarre design decision. Would have been better to nerf the characters somewhat if the designers were worried they would be too powerful.
It's been a while since I played the games, but I think at least one of my imported characters was gimped in some way (hitpoints or experience). Also, the doubled hitpoints made the final battle impossible.
 

Saduj

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Octavius - Don't remember the answer to all your questions but this what I do remember...

No casting times on spells or interupting spell casting. They take effect during the turn in which you cast them.

Dual/multi-class preservers can wear armor and cast at the same time.

Don't remember about backstabbing but I do remember thinking thiefs were pretty useless and only needing one at one point in the game. Don't think I tried a ranger either.

I did have a cleric but in my final playthrough but he was also a half-giant gladiator so he was pretty badass. I remember not being too impressed with their spells other than entangle, which is a good low level spell.
 

Saduj

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How do you Turn Undead in this game?

I don't remember if it was treated as just another spell or if it had its own icon. I don't think it came up too often. Probably better off with a druid actually...
 

octavius

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I must admit I have some problems working up enough enthusiasm for this game.
I don't feel I have enough control in combat - the same feeling I used to have with Baldur's Gate - despite it being turn based. Lack of grid really hurts. So does not being able to cancel your moves if you don't have enough movement points.

The controls are clunky; it's hard to do things quickly. But at least the party moves quickly.

The artwork is inferior to the Gold Box games IMO, and less crisp.

It feels almost like some turn based prototype for the Infinity Engine games. But nobody accuses the Dark Sun games of being part of The Decline...

Unlike the IE games Dark Sun does not seem to have fog of war; so far all the areas are already explored and you can view the whole area before moving, which is rather lame.

The game has a better balance between NPC interaction and combat than the Gold Box games, but maybe I'm too much of a combatfag to enjoy it?
 

Gozma

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Probably, I liked it at the time mainly as "proto-Fallout" for the NPC interaction and relatively complicated quest designs (e.g. all the various ways you can handle the rat people) but replaying it now from the future where I like to think occasionally during the core gameplay of a video game, it's pretty weak.
 

Erebus

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Clerics seem useless, apart from their ability to Turn Undead. They can only cast Cosmos spells up to lvl 3, they can't choose Cosmos as their sphere and yet most of the lvl 4+ spells are Cosmos spells? How does that compute?
I guess there had to be at least one D&D game in which clerics were a terrible choice. :)

Is backstabbing as useful as in the Gold Box and IE games?

I found it to be even more useful, since I got more occasions to use it in fights than in other games. The damages inflicted are devastating. I don't remember if the fighter/thief had to use light armor.

It took me a little while to get the hang of moving around efficiently in combat, but the lack of a grid was no longer a problem after that.

I really liked the artwork, myself.
 

octavius

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Is backstabbing as useful as in the Gold Box and IE games?


I found it to be even more useful, since I got more occasions to use it in fights than in other games. The damages inflicted are devastating. I don't remember if the fighter/thief had to use light armor.

It took me a little while to get the hang of moving around efficiently in combat, but the lack of a grid was no longer a problem after that.

I really liked the artwork, myself.

Yup, backstabbing is efficient, but I have to be real careful to align the attacks properly. In the IE games it was enough that the attacker was stealthed or invisible. I have a Dwarf Fighter/Thief/Psionic for the job. Don't know if it works with heavy armour, since it seems to be rare, and I haven't found any yet.

So far it seems the only real restrictions are that characters with Druid skill have to be True Neutral and characters with Rangers skills need to be Good. All weapon and armour restrictions disappear for multiclass characters.

There are some inclines compared to the Gold Box games, though:
Combat can occur in a much larger area, with several groups fighting each other at different places.
Much wider selection of spells.
Less obvious what to do and who you can trust. The Gold Box games weren't excactly subtle in that regard.
 
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octavius

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Grrr....pathfinding is just as rage inducing as it can be in the IE games. If I order a character to attack and the path is blocked by another character he will try to take the shortcut around the globe.

I'm also getting a certain Wasteland vibe from the Sewers/Skull Temple area. It reminds me somewhat of the Temple of Blood. And Dagolar reminds me of Jon Irenicus, with his experiments and "trophies".

Hmm...seems to be a bug with the chests. I had one chest filled with six different items. The next chests I picked up that were of the same type has the same contents as the first one.

Degolar was a wuss. I used Synaptic Static to prevent all use of psionics and tried to hurt him each round. Beat him easily in both battles. So far only the beginning has been hard, and the slimes before I realized swords are not considered thrusting weapons. I have hardly used any spells either, and no Mass Dominate.
But I see from the Let's Play that I missed some good scenes by ignoring the locked in zombie.

BTW, my party:
Half-Giant Gladiator
Dwarf Fighter/Thief/Psionicist
Thri-Kreen Ranger/Cleric/Psionicist
Half-Elf Fighter/Druid/Preserver

I wanted all classes represented, hence the Half Giant Gladiator. Half-Giants can't triple class anyway, so I don't lose that much by single classing him.
I avoided Humans due to no multi-classing, Elves due to no resurrection, Halfling because I don't think cannibalistic litte buggers fit in with a band of freedom fighters, and Muls because I think "Mul" is a stupid name.

The Half Giant Gladiator and the Dwarf Fighter/Thief do most of the killing. Backstab is extremely effective and so far I've seen damage up to 78 points in one hit. I don't find the Thri-Kreen as powerful in combat I thought she would be, and the Half Elf suffers from having only 17 STR. The Dwarf does far more damage with her 20 STR, even when not backstabbing.
I wish there was a chart showing all the stats bonuses, but they seem non-existant.
 

Gozma

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There is a huge jump in damage bonus from 18 to 19 strength in 1st/2nd Ed. AD&D because of the "exceptional strength" jazz (where a fighter class benefit is that you get to roll a d100 if you roll 18 strength at character creation and it becomes your exceptional strength score, the highest being 18/00). 19 strength therefore goes over all the exceptional strength bonuses at once (it's supposed to be the beginning of really superhuman strengths) and means like a +6 net damage bonus per hit over 18 strength. 17 to 20 is gonna be like 7 or 8 points a hit difference.

The shtick of Dark Sun character creation is that Athas (the setting) is so hellish that that Darwinian selection has made the people more badass than normal pussy elf-dwarf-orc settings so you get to roll more dice at character creation and lots of the races can get scores in the "totally superhuman" range of normal AD&D settings.
 

Erebus

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So far only the beginning has been hard

Most of the fights in the game are fairly easy if you have a good party, but there are some exceptions. The ending battles are entertainingly hellish.
 

PorkaMorka

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It feels almost like some turn based prototype for the Infinity Engine games. But nobody accuses the Dark Sun games of being part of The Decline...

They're widely recognized as being part of the decline. But decline happens gradually, so they were still quite enjoyable by the standards of the day.

I enjoyed them back then, but I would probably not be willing to complete them today. Actually, I only ever beat the first one, the second one was really problematic even back then. You'll see when/if you get to it.
 

VirInvictus

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Yeah, the buggy nature of WotR kinda had me a little disappointed. I always wished for a fix or, at the very least, a community fix to the issue. But I don't see that ever happening.
 

octavius

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Now that my brave band of freedom fighters have escaped to the desert, the game reminds me of Fallout. And just like in Fallout a rope would have been very handy. I just hope that I didn't overlook one in the previous areas...

EDIT: Ha ha, never mind. A few yards away from the place I needed a rope there grows very conviently a "rope like plant". :roll:


Oh dear, is that a Scorpitron?
61YGiT5.jpg
 

abnaxus

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Clerics seem useless, apart from their ability to Turn Undead. They can only cast Cosmos spells up to lvl 3, they can't choose Cosmos as their sphere and yet most of the lvl 4+ spells are Cosmos spells? How does that compute?
Part of the rules. Only druids have major access to Sphere of the Cosmos.
 

octavius

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Damned, this is lame! I lead some Blue Slaads and Sand Howlers towards the Slavers' stockade and the monsters and the slaver guards completely ignore each other. So much for trying to be clever...

How did Fallout (only made a half assed effort on the game some years ago) treat such situations? Or didn't such situations arise?


I've found that Inertial Barrier is extremely effective against all those bow wielding guards. One of the few spells I've used so far. Too bad the combat is so mcuh easier than the Gold Box games; with such a large selection of spells compared to the GB games it's a shame there is not more incentive to use more spells, since using brute force is usully enough.
 

Gozma

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Fallout maps are generally smaller and unifactional so "faction" fighting (including simple stuff like dudes vs. monsters) mostly doesn't come up - when it does it usually makes sense (e.g. I think you can attract Junktown guards to fight those gang members, for example) but is a huge slow clusterfuck. Fair combat in Fallout 1 (as in not vs. a slow melee monster or not a short range burst execution or something like that) is basically a robust adventure game failure state where you fuck around until you get hit by a crit and die so whatever.
 

octavius

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A nice nod to Might&Magic and the the Lloyd's Beacon spell:

yPK7eOj.jpg



"Each obelisk has a large gem turned to its own special aura."
I guess that means I need the gems to activate the other obelisks so that the Rod of Llod can send me there? I hope those gems are unique and not sellable?
 

Gozma

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I coulda sworn Lloyd's Beacon (or Leomund's?) is originally D&D but I can't find proof on the internet.

Stuff you sell stays in the guy's inventory I think; I can't recall the nature of the giant gems wrt sellability.
 

octavius

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Stuff you sell stays in the guy's inventory I think; I can't recall the nature of the giant gems wrt sellability.

I'm fairly certain I had one large gem, and I sold it to the guy seeking enlightenment in the Dragon's Eye area. Problem is that the trading was a one time event and he won't trade with me again. Killing him doesn't help getting the gem back either.
But I assume those obelisks are just for convenience, and not vital to complete the game?
 

SCO

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Realistically, you wouldn't find all of them without a walk-through either. Some are ridiculous
 

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