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Deathlord Relorded!

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,792
It seems to me, and i'm just kind of educated guessing here, that perhaps the (F)lee and (R)etreat combat actions in the original were meant to get your backline guys some time in the front. In other words, your front line characters might take some damage, u might have one move to the backline and then a backline character could use their melee or ranged weapon in the frontline and hope to score a kill or something like that. So even backline characters should have been battle ready with armor and weapons, imo. Does any of this make sense or am I just a senile ol' RPG gamer. :P

Spellcaster's get trashed if they end up on the front lines. But constantly typing in "Todo" and "Hirama" (or whatever they were) for 1 damage each got old pretty fast.
 

Fluent

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Messages
830
Funny thing is, I have a Shisai with 18 STR who was doing more damage at the time than my frontline fighters lol. She had 1 more HP than my frontline thief, too! But yeah you're probably right. I just wonder how u were to really level up those backline characters if only the front 3 could really fight effectively.
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Let me try to respond to all the above comments in one shot.

First, the idea of Deathlord Relorded is to make Deathlord the way I want to play it, while keeping what I think is the spirit of Deathlord. Anything that I thought was either a bug or needed instant reboots was changed.

Searching is now guaranteed to work. This is by FAR the most significant change and arguably the most transformative in the Deathlord experience. It doesn’t seem that way at first glance, but trust me. It is a far bigger change than the rear rank using ranged weapons. Imagine playing a dungeon crawler (without maps) where it is entirely possible that you miss a hidden door twenty times and are therefore certain it doesn’t exist.

The second most impactful change is the dramatic increase in the map’s viewport size. And the third (that I may tweak depending on my own experience playing) is the special bonuses of certain races and classes. Especially the gnome that can see very far in the dark in dungeons. But here it’s tricky because not making the race bonuses very good will make you revert to playing an all-human party which was what everyone did since humans are far better by default.

Speaking of rear rank ranged weapons, IMO it is a big bug. Having that in DLRL opens a whole range of tactical party considerations, including using the priest as a very effective front rank fighter when you’re overleveled compared to the regular mobs.

Also regarding the rear rank, the original was extremely frustrating for those guys in another way: they got less XP than the front rank for 2 reasons. One, if you didn’t cast spells they wouldn’t get xp allocated to them, so everyone turned to cast-cancel. And second, any extra remainder xp would get allocated starting at char 1, and over time that would add up to a lot and your back line would be very slow at leveling up. This has all been fixed in DLRL. Everyone gets xp, and the extra is randomly allocated.

Regarding typing spells in battle like “TODO” et. al., I haven’t improved that. The game is still keyboard driven except for the new inventory interface. But you can type ?-enter to get a list of spells and navigate it via the arrow keys. So it’s not as bad as typing the whole spell. And arguably it’s faster than clicking and mixing reagants and whatnots. :) Battles in DLRL are as fast if not faster than any other 80s-90s RPG except for Nox Archaist when I speedrun at full speed. Note that I disabled any kind of speed acceleration in DLRL’s emulation layer because you’d run out of food almost instantly, and the game is frankly extremely fast as it is.

As for the above-mentioned inventory screen, it uses the mouse for simplicity. And I added a temporary party stash of 2 items per slot (melee, ranged, chest…) so you can move items into the stash when getting loot and trying the new stuff without losing the old stuff.

In DLRL there’s also auto-mapping. Anything you identified on the map stays identified. Tiles are remembered, and so are traps and teleporters. One of my goals was not to need an additional tool or millimetric paper to play the game.

Oh one last thing… No more level drain. Level drain is evil and you just rebooted if it happened. So it’s gone. But vampires are still deadly with the death spell.
 

Fluent

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Messages
830
Hey rikkles , a few things.

1 - I think I had a bug where I could see thru walls. My leader was an Obake Yakuza, and I saw the flashing gold of a treasure right thru a wall with no window. There was an illusory wall also lit up nearby to get to the treasure. And at some points in the game I could just see thru some walls (will double check next time to see if I already cleared those rooms and that's why they show.)

2 - AC when moving items like a Tanto/Sai from said Obake Yakuza resulted in weird anomalies. Sometimes a +/-1 AC item would permanently set the Yakuza's AC lower by 1, even when i removed the weapon. When moving back it didn't do anything else, and his AC just stayed at that number seemingly permanently.

3 - In the dungeon beneath the palace, I exited the dungeon, saved, and went back in, and it was not explored again. The areas I explored did not stay explored and I had to remap them all again.

4 - Weird question maybe, but do Obake Yakuza still have to manually (F) Search? And I'm not sure how this works, can u search an empty tile and maybe something is there? Secret doors and walls are already identified which is why I ask.
Hope that helps. I'll try to get more info if I can soon, next time I play i'll check on these. Any ideas in the meantime?
 
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rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Hey rikkles , a few things.

1 - I think I had a bug where I could see thru walls. My leader was an Obake Yakuza, and I saw the flashing gold of a treasure right thru a wall with no window. There was an illusory wall also lit up nearby to get to the treasure. And at some points in the game I could just see thru some walls (will double check next time to see if I already cleared those rooms and that's why they show.)

2 - AC when moving items like a Tanto/Sai from said Obake Yakuza resulted in weird anomalies. Sometimes a +/-1 AC item would permanently set the Yakuza's AC lower by 1, even when i removed the weapon. When moving back it didn't do anything else, and his AC just stayed at that number seemingly permanently.

3 - In the dungeon beneath the palace, I exited the dungeon, saved, and went back in, and it was not explored again. The areas I explored did not stay explored and I had to remap them all again.

4 - Weird question maybe, but do Obake Yakuza still have to manually (F) Search? And I'm not sure how this works, can u search an empty tile and maybe something is there? Secret doors and walls are already identified which is why I ask.
Hope that helps. I'll try to get more info if I can soon, next time I play i'll check on these. Any ideas in the meantime?

What version are you using? I've been updating it with fixes to this stuff. Don't upgrade yet if you haven't! I'm fixing the whole saving games etc... so that everything goes to the Saved Games folder, and future proof the upgrades. Make sure you back up the whole game directory somewhere anyway, so that itch doesn't overwrite your critical progress.

Issues 1 & 3 have been (I hope) fixed in the later versions.

For issue 2, the original game only updates AC when in battle, or when you get info on a char. It doesn't matter which char you get info on, once you get to the screen with AC it updates all the chars' AC. I've attempted to trigger the AC update as much as possible when relevant, but I am missing a few. When in doubt, just get char info on someone and the AC will properly update.

For issue 4, thieves automatically identify everything except for illusiory walls. But you still have to "search" to get the hidden door, pit etc... to show up. It just tells you "there's something here, please search".
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
IMPORTANT UPDATE:

I have updated the itch version to 1.0.1.0. I decided to put all changeable data (including the full images of the original game) into your "Saved Games" folder to ensure updates don't clobber your games. So in order to update correctly to this version, please do the following:

- Copy somewhere safe the /Images directory from the main game directory
- Copy somehwere safe the "dcmarkers.data" file from the main game directory
- Upgrade the game on itch
- Launch the game, then quit it
- Open your Saved Games folder (C:\Users\xxx\Saved Games).
- There should be a "Deathlord Relorded" folder in it. Open it.
- Then from the backed up stuff you had, replace all the files you see in there with yours, except for the .conf file.
- Launch and play the game.

Sorry about that but emulator-based games are really tricky with saved data.

Version 1.0.1.0 also adds full support for teleporter visibility in the map, and you can see tiles that are teleports in, out, or both, with tags that tell you where they all go.
 

rogueknight333

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
348
My main point about the change making ranged attacks from the rear ranks possible was not that it is necessarily bad, but that it is a major change which, unless I missed something, you appear to have barely mentioned in your documentation, descriptions and discussions of DLRL. If the subject had not happened to come up, it appears quite possible that someone with experience of the original game might just have assumed this was still impossible and planned party composition, battle tactics, etc. on that assumption.

I would certainly agree in the abstract that not allowing such attacks in the first place made little sense and limited tactical depth. The way the unusual XP system penalized casters was also, in the abstract, very poor game design. The question of the desirability of altering them in this specific game, I suppose, is how crucial those particular elements were to the notorious difficulty which is the main thing that made Deathlord memorable.

Similar questions could be asked of some of your other alterations, of course, but seem more easily answered there. For example, in the case of removing level draining, it certainly could be argued that someone who plays this game without ever getting level drained cannot be said to have had the trauma of the true Deathlord experience. On the other hand, it is true that most of the time a level draining occurs the victim is just going to reload, and the few who "iron man" through such an event will just go farm trashmobs to regain the lost experience, so a good case can be made that all it does is waste the player's time. In any case, you mentioned that particular change often and prominently enough that masochists determined to experience level draining will know to stay away from DLRL. By contrast, changing ranged attacks and the XP system has a big effect on numerous aspects of gameplay, perhaps in subtle ways not immediately apparent.
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
No way to restore drained XP and levels?
In the original, absolutely not.

Also, in the original when you level up at the academy you lose all acquired xp towards the next level. This has been fixed in DLRL.
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Rogueknight, DLRL has indeed major changes from DL. Those are changes I decided to make so that my experience playing the game would be enjoyable for me.
Quoting the github repo description of features:

  • The game runs in a fixed 1920x1080 resolution, windowed or full screen.
  • The map is expanded from 9x9 to 32x32
  • There's a world mini-map to not get lost at sea
  • Many, many more colors
  • Tilesets redone with the help from @BillG.
  • Log is 30 lines long instead of 3
  • Fixed known Deathlord bugs such as the ninja/monk AC reset at level 32, and stat increase ceiling
  • Magic water effect is always a random stat increase
  • Search always works (that was evil!)
  • No char HP loss from starvation, but no automatic healing when starving
  • No level drain
  • Certain races and classes have bonuses
  • Rear rank can use ranged weapons
  • No autosave when char dies in battle
  • Equipment use has improved. Peasants can use light bows and longbows, ninjas can wield katanas
  • Battle XP allocation is properly distributed across all characters
  • Every character gets battle XP. No more having to "cast-cancel" to get XP for mages that don't want to cast spells
  • Additional XP does not reset on level up
  • Can check missing required XP when trying to level up
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Anyone wanting the real Deathlord experience should only play the original game on real hardware. You can’t get the “Deathlord” experience unless you reboot every 5 minutes and each reboot takes a minute.

if I wanted (which I don’t) to give the real Deathlord experience I’d first and foremost have to slow the rebooting from 4 seconds to 1 minute minimum.

IMO the real value of DL is not its ridiculous difficulty in level drain and reboots. Its real value is in its difficulty _even_ after fixing all these issues. The dungeon design is exceptionally challenging and you constantly have to manage your resources.
 

Rincewind

Magister
Patron
Joined
Feb 8, 2020
Messages
2,462
Location
down under
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Rogueknight, DLRL has indeed major changes from DL. Those are changes I decided to make so that my experience playing the game would be enjoyable for me.
Quoting the github repo description of features:

  • The game runs in a fixed 1920x1080 resolution, windowed or full screen.
  • The map is expanded from 9x9 to 32x32
  • There's a world mini-map to not get lost at sea
  • Many, many more colors
  • Tilesets redone with the help from @BillG.
  • Log is 30 lines long instead of 3
  • Fixed known Deathlord bugs such as the ninja/monk AC reset at level 32, and stat increase ceiling
  • Magic water effect is always a random stat increase
  • Search always works (that was evil!)
  • No char HP loss from starvation, but no automatic healing when starving
  • No level drain
  • Certain races and classes have bonuses
  • Rear rank can use ranged weapons
  • No autosave when char dies in battle
  • Equipment use has improved. Peasants can use light bows and longbows, ninjas can wield katanas
  • Battle XP allocation is properly distributed across all characters
  • Every character gets battle XP. No more having to "cast-cancel" to get XP for mages that don't want to cast spells
  • Additional XP does not reset on level up
  • Can check missing required XP when trying to level up

I never played the original, but these changes seem conservative and very reasonable to me.
 

Grauken

Gourd vibes only
Patron
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
12,802
Anyone wanting the real Deathlord experience should only play the original game on real hardware. You can’t get the “Deathlord” experience unless you reboot every 5 minutes and each reboot takes a minute.

if I wanted (which I don’t) to give the real Deathlord experience I’d first and foremost have to slow the rebooting from 4 seconds to 1 minute minimum.

IMO the real value of DL is not its ridiculous difficulty in level drain and reboots. Its real value is in its difficulty _even_ after fixing all these issues. The dungeon design is exceptionally challenging and you constantly have to manage your resources.

No need to defend yourself, this is an exceptional (not sure what exactly to call it, maybe) remaster that makes a taxing game more accessible without losing too much of its old-school qualities.
 
Last edited:

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
How does the auto-roller work? I don't know if it's working or not, but a lot of the rolls seem to keep giving me peasants, so I assume it isn't.
 

rogueknight333

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
348
...
  • Rear rank can use ranged weapons

So it is mentioned in the documentation then. Apparently I overlooked it somehow. It is a much more radical change than most of the others, in terms of its effects on gameplay and player strategy, so you still might want to emphasize it more, but it seems I actually did miss something. My apologies.

...if I wanted (which I don’t) to give the real Deathlord experience I’d first and foremost have to slow the rebooting from 4 seconds to 1 minute minimum...

Technical issues external to the actual game that the player has no choice about how to handle, and gameplay changes that alter what his in game startegic choices should be, are not at all the same sort of thing.
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
How does the auto-roller work? I don't know if it's working or not, but a lot of the rolls seem to keep giving me peasants, so I assume it isn't.

can you take a screenshot? Press A to autoroll and it should run for a while and show you the screen constantly updating with rolls
 

TigerKnee

Arcane
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
Messages
1,920
How does the auto-roller work? I don't know if it's working or not, but a lot of the rolls seem to keep giving me peasants, so I assume it isn't.

can you take a screenshot? Press A to autoroll and it should run for a while and show you the screen constantly updating with rolls
I'm stupid, I was playing on a smaller resolution so the bottom got cut off. Yeah, it works
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
So it is mentioned in the documentation then. Apparently I overlooked it somehow. It is a much more radical change than most of the others, in terms of its effects on gameplay and player strategy, so you still might want to emphasize it more, but it seems I actually did miss something. My apologies.

No worries, I made so many changes that I'm bound to miss some. It started organically and then turned into what you now see.
But still, I am quite intrigued as to why you think the rear rank using ranged weapons is such is big deal. To me it's almost a sidenote given all the changes to the adventuring. If you know exactly what to do in the game, then the rear rank ranged change is certainly significant, but if you're playing it as a normal person the main change is that now you can really look at using cool classes like ranger, assassin, etc... which were mostly overlooked originally. Apart from that, you'll still get crushed by the masses of enemies in dungeons, get lost in the depths, have your critical healer get paralyzed at the wrong time, etc...

Having some girl in the back able to shoot a bow will be the least of your concerns.

...if I wanted (which I don’t) to give the real Deathlord experience I’d first and foremost have to slow the rebooting from 4 seconds to 1 minute minimum...

Technical issues external to the actual game that the player has no choice about how to handle, and gameplay changes that alter what his in game startegic choices should be, are not at all the same sort of thing.

I disagree. When rebooting is painful, it changes the way you play, especially when it's so common in Deathlord. Much more than whatever "strategic" choice you think having a bow in the back will bring.
Trust me when I say that if I'd made booting the game take a minute, you'd hate playing it. Which is why I made everything as efficient as I could, coding on bare metal so to speak.
 

Fatberg Slim

Educated
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Joined
Mar 4, 2022
Messages
75
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Q-Link
I created an account after 10+ years of lurking here just to say thank you for your service! Deathlord was a game I really wanted to enjoy when it first came out, but it always seemed to actively want to frustrate the player and I never got very far.

As part of your work, did you happen to see whether ninja or shukenja get bonuses in unarmed combat, or whether ninja get an instant-kill chance? I remember one of my friends swearing this was the case back in the day but I never saw any evidence (and it's not like the manual was a reliable source of info).
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Fatberg Slim thank you, I hope it will be up to your expectations.
I currently have a level 20+ shukenja (monk) who does 1x10-12 unarmed combat. She doesn’t get any instant kills. The main value of unarmed combat is the narrow range of damage. But apart from that it seems pretty underwhelming. I haven’t yet looked at the code that handles damage, so I can’t tell for sure if there are critical hits.
In a future version I might add attacks to the ninja or monk, but first I want to make sure that doesn’t create an OP class.
 

Fatberg Slim

Educated
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Mar 4, 2022
Messages
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Fatberg Slim thank you, I hope it will be up to your expectations.
I currently have a level 20+ shukenja (monk) who does 1x10-12 unarmed combat. She doesn’t get any instant kills. The main value of unarmed combat is the narrow range of damage. But apart from that it seems pretty underwhelming. I haven’t yet looked at the code that handles damage, so I can’t tell for sure if there are critical hits.
In a future version I might add attacks to the ninja or monk, but first I want to make sure that doesn’t create an OP class.

Got it, thanks. Hopefully the unarmed damage doesn't reset at level 32 like the AC bonus did (thank you for fixing that). Yeah, the whole concept of having three different weapon types that ultimately involve the exact same tactics was disappointing. I appreciate your change to allow back-row characters to use missile weapons - the real benefit there is not so much the extra damage but more removing the need to rotate characters to the front row so they have a better chance to gain experience. My shisai was severely under-leveled compared to the rest of the party before.

Definitely looking forward to giving the game another chance! This is one game that always stuck with me as having definite flaws but also some unique features that I really wanted to see through to the end. It's funny how handy the random Japanese words in the game were when I ended up learning Japanese for pussy work years later - I still think of this game when trying to remember whether hibana means sparks or fireworks...
 

Fluent

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Messages
830
Updated to 1.0.1.0 :) Ready to rock. Time to head to The Academy and see if I can level up...

If you're wondering, it won't be until Episode 7 of my LP that you'll see version 1.0.1. The first few episodes of the LP are me fumbling about, and then eps 4-6 I get more comfortable with the gameplay and start to see the game shine. GAMEGODFLUENT on youtube if you're interested. :)

Peace guys! Long live DEATHLORD.
 

Fluent

Arcane
Patron
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 8, 2021
Messages
830
Hello rikkles . I have another quick question. Are there any enemies in the game (please no spoilers on WHO or WHAT, just IF) that can actually hit your back row characters and inflict damage on them? I don't see really any reason to give the backrow armor, just give them ranged weapons and use spells, right? Is there any reason to gear them up with armor and such?
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Hello rikkles . I have another quick question. Are there any enemies in the game (please no spoilers on WHO or WHAT, just IF) that can actually hit your back row characters and inflict damage on them? I don't see really any reason to give the backrow armor, just give them ranged weapons and use spells, right? Is there any reason to gear them up with armor and such?

The back row in any case will have crap armor because they can't wear much. The rear rank can only be hit by spells. But you're definitely better off with armor at least on char 4, because often one of your front people will get incapacitated and moved to the rear.
 

rikkles

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Aug 22, 2017
Messages
137
Updated to 1.0.1.0 :) Ready to rock. Time to head to The Academy and see if I can level up...

If you're wondering, it won't be until Episode 7 of my LP that you'll see version 1.0.1. The first few episodes of the LP are me fumbling about, and then eps 4-6 I get more comfortable with the gameplay and start to see the game shine. GAMEGODFLUENT on youtube if you're interested. :)

Peace guys! Long live DEATHLORD.

Maaaan... you really didn't read the docs did you :)
It says at the top DOWNLOAD THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENTATION.
Watching you wondering what an assassin is, is... :deadtroll:
 

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