Decline 10: New Blood for the Feast

[noisenerd]

Thanks for the tips guys. Some of that probably seems like common sense- but as an example, I've come to prefer corner starts in my SP games because it means having to defend a smaller border against earlyish doomstacks. I guess in MP the possibility of diplomacy means hopefully you can at least bribe some nations not to attack you if you're surrounded.

 

[Grimwulf]

Almost any map can be balanced out with minimal fine-tuning. Placing custom starts and Thrones solves most of the problems, but sometimes you need to edit some borders and terrain features too.

Wraparound maps make the game a bit more fair, but one-way wraparound is more than enough for it. When your map is wrapped both horizontally and vertically, it's just pain for the eyes, brain and logic. Not to mention that you won't find a single aesthetically pleasing full-wraparound maps. There are none.

For instance, Shaluda is both fancy and fairly balanced map. Horizontal-only wraparound.

Spoiler

I'm not suggesting this map, though. Let's stick to Valanis.

If you want a near-perfectly balanced map, some things to note.

• Distance between player's caps should be 3 provinces or more. It means that if you want to reach another player's cap from your own, you need at least map move 4. Otherwise there is a risk of being screwed by a random retard who took awaken flying SC Pretender (dragon or whatever) and besieged your cap at turn 1 BECAUSE HE CAN!!1. It's also not very nice to have a capital of EA Xibalba / MA Nazca / Caelum of any age within 3 provinces to your cap, at ANY stage of the game. Do you feel comfortable knowing that they can attack you any turn they want? No. This rule doesn't apply to UW nations at all, although you should avoid placing UW capital RIGHT NEXT to surface cap of another player.
• Although a few nations in the game benefit from it, placing capitals on coastal provinces is actually pretty bad. There are some extremely punishing random events that only happen on coasts + lategame spell Tidal Wave that might really screw you up.
• It's ok to start in plains/farmlads/forest/border mt., but it's kinda bad to start in swamp, desert or mountain. You cannot build roads in those types of provinces, so your logistics will be hampered significantly.
• It's not ok to have a Throne RIGHT NEXT to your cap. First of all, if it's lvl2/3 Thrones - you basically lose the cap resources from the Throne province for a good portion of early or even midgame. Which might be game-breaking for some nations. Second, temperature Thrones are able to fuck up your game instantly in case of some nations. Third, Thrones can be a powerful diplomacy tool when you can trade them. But trading any cap-ring province is actually pretty stupid. So, less options for you.
• Every surface capital should have at the very least 4 surface provinces connected. Ideally 6. Ideally all surface caps should have 6 provinces. When placing UW starts, remember that UW forts don't trace resource income from surface provinces. So you need to give UW cap at least 4 UW provinces adjanced.
• 15 provinces per player (plus-minus) is a good number. Everything less is crowdy. Everything more makes up for a more micro-heavy game, but not really balance-breaking.

Finally, there is another way to play Dominions pbem. Just pick a map, and let random FAITH sort it all out. Seriously, balance-fagging just isn't worth it when we want to enjoy a simple, light-hearted game.

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

Hear, hear~

Thanks for the tips. Hopefully, I'll be able to make some playable maps sometime in the future.

 

[Lizzurd]

Otherwise there is a risk of being screwed by a random retard who took awaken flying SC Pretender (dragon or whatever) and besieged your cap at turn 1 BECAUSE HE CAN!!1.

Hey don't use the offensive words! This makes... "humans" feel embarrassing!

 

[sqeecoo]

Yep, here's my start on my Valanis test game with 10 players:

Spoiler

Cap borders swamp, UW province, and lvl 2 throne :D

One more suggestion noisenerd - I'd give 1-2 reliable people admin privileges, just so it's easier to find someone to extend the turn timer if someone needs an emergency extension. Stalls are no fun, and Dom4 games on the Codex typically have no limit on extensions. Of course, you are free to do things differently in your game.

 

[Grimwulf]

Yep, here's my start on my Valanis test game with 10 players:

Aaand now we see your scales. Great job!

Spoiler

Decent scales, by the way. Misf 2 will have next-to-none effect with current settings and O3.

 

[Malakal]

Dont tell me you play on rare events. noisenerd events need to be common for luck to be useful mate.

 

[Grimwulf]

Dont tell me you play on rare events. noisenerd events need to be common for luck to be useful mate.

Let the host make whatever rules he wants. Besides, most of the players submitted their Pretenders already, based on the previously declared settings.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Let the host make whatever rules he wants. Besides, most of the players submitted their Pretenders already, based on the previously declared settings.

I'm ok with rare events.

 

[sqeecoo]

Fuck, and I looked so closely at that screenie to see if there was anything revealing :D

Didn't even know events were rare, I'm ok with that but vote against it, normal events are balanced just fine and penalize Misfortune appropriately, in my limited experience.

 

[KoolNoodles]

Fuck, and I looked so closely at that screenie to see if there was anything revealing :D

Didn't even know events were rare, I'm ok with that but vote against it, normal events are balanced just fine and penalize Misfortune appropriately, in my limited experience.

I think you're fine. There aren't any huge surprises in your scales for Mictlan.

 

[sqeecoo]

You played it well in Decline 2, any advice? I tremble at the thought of establishing a full blood economy and balancing it with research and all (also, all the virgins).

 

[KoolNoodles]

You played it well in Decline 2, any advice? I tremble at the thought of establishing a full blood economy and balancing it with research and all (also, all the virgins).

I played it OK, and EA is a bit different from LA, mostly on research priorities. Early game you play like everything else, grab land etc. There's a lot of info around for best practices on blood hunting, but roughly choose 5k population provinces, and use your cheap priests with sanguine rods. They are also your best researchers. Make a million priests basically.

So you want Const4 pretty quick, but since LA Mictlan is not as much of an early powerhouse as EA(because everyone's tech has surpassed you) you might want to focus Alteration first in case you run into trouble, where you can fairly easily start casting protection, body ethereal, quickness, etc. on your jaguars and other troops. You won't have a huge need for or economic base set up for blood hunting early anyways.

That said, some people go straight for blood 4. You can get enough slaves even without rods, and going to B4 opens up some great tools early game. Ozelotls, Lesser Horrors, Hellfire, Agony, etc.

Also hotkeys, Z and V are your friend for transferring/pooling slaves. Use scouts to ferry slaves. Mid game you've got some great national blood summons(Civateteo and Tlahuelpuchi fill a couple nice roles, Ozelotls and Beast Bats can give swarm potential), as well as the rest.

Try and find some crossbows ASAP. You'll be a target for anyone who has archers or heavy armor, depending on your bless.

Rain Warriors + Rain Priest can get you underwater just fine, with maybe 10 warriors.

Dominion pushing with things like Vengeful Waters is an option and even Dominion killing somebody who is noticeably weak. That's kind of hard though, and takes patience.

Use Tribal Kings to round up slaves as arrow catchers and chaff.

I don't know, I'm sure there are other ways to go about it, but that's the basics as far as I know.

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

Dear MULTIGOD, do I feel outclassed here. This is gonna be fun.

 

[Lizzurd]

Lemuria is IN.

 

[Malakal]

You played it well in Decline 2, any advice? I tremble at the thought of establishing a full blood economy and balancing it with research and all (also, all the virgins).

I won a game with LA Mictlan recently. You NEED a heavy bless for your troops to do any actual damage in LA, even expansion can be tough without that. Your rain warriors can help with that being actually decent heavy infantry. But you need ozelotls very fast to survive, and indie crossbows.

Cons4 is a priority and so is ozelotl spell. You also need research for your mages to do anything since they dont on low levels - either high blood (resource intense) or evo for storm of thorns/stellar cascades. Your mages kinda suck in LA.

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

A wild Unexpected Nation appears!

 

[sqeecoo]

Thanks for the honest tips guys, lines up well with my thoughts. Now to put that into practice Hard to test this stuff beyond initial expansion in SP. At least I got some minor experience with blood economy in Decline 3.

Rain Warriors are decent indeed (compared to alternative), but the lack of a helmet scares me. How bad is that, objectively?

 

[Matalarata]

A question for my betters... Playing a cold-blooded nation and having Heat 3 as a scale, should I claim the throne of winter if it is close to my starting position? I'd say yes, but heat scale isn't something I've played much with....

 

[noisenerd]

Dear MULTIGOD, do I feel outclassed here.

You and me both... we shall die gloriously!

Dont tell me you play on rare events. noisenerd, events need to be common for luck to be useful mate.

<fake tantrum>Dammit, this is why I asked for suggestions in the OP. My map sucks, my settings suck, WELL DEAL WITH IT!</fake tantrum>

Seriously though, are we talking fun-ruining levels of difference? I see plenty of events in my SP games, but I also play with much more than 15 provinces per nation, so maybe it seems like a lot because I have more provinces for events to occur in. I have played with common events, I really don't remember how different it was. In any case, I will take this into account in the future.

A wild Unexpected Nation appears!

WTF? Has any more experienced person seen this before? I'm guessing it's supposed to be Lemuria (he's IN)... Lizzurd, maybe I should delete that and have you re-send?

Well, the game hasn't even started yet and I'm already learning some stuff. I'm calling this a success no matter how badly I lose (or how many people are annoyed with my settings).

 

[Lizzurd]

WTF? Has any more experienced person seen this before? I'm guessing it's supposed to be Lemuria (he's IN)... Lizzurd, maybe I should delete that and have you re-send?

Oh, it is standard Llamaserver reaction on the some new nations including Lemuria. It always shows in that way.

Spoiler

Lemuria is so bad that no one expects it to be picked!

 

[noisenerd]

Ah, ok cool.

 

[Grimwulf]

but the lack of a helmet scares me. How bad is that, objectively?

Depends on what you're fighting. Most of the time you won't notice the difference.

Playing a cold-blooded nation and having Heat 3 as a scale, should I claim the throne of winter if it is close to my starting position?

It doesn't matter. Even unclaimed Throne will eventually begin to spread temperature and spam those magic sites around itself. Claiming it will simply grant your dominion +1 Cold scale, which is rather insignificant in most cases. But if you play hot nation and got yerself a Throne of Winter next to your cap, you're screwed already.

 

[Muty]

Uhmm I just realized that we are playing LA and MA so my choice of nation is utterly retarded. Do you mind if i switch to pangea?

 

[noisenerd]

Uhmm I just realized that we are playing LA and MA so my choice of nation is utterly retarded. Do you mind if i switch to pangea?

Not at all. Updated list:


--- NATIONS ---

Arcoscephale - hoverdog
Pangea - Muty
Man - noisenerd
Ulm - Zephyr Arsland
Marignon - Grimwulf
Mictlan - sqeecoo
T'ien Ch'i - hello friend
C'tis - Matalarata
Bogarus - KoolNoodles
Lemuria - Lizzurd

Also, forgot to answer this:

I'd give 1-2 reliable people admin privileges, just so it's easier to find someone to extend the turn timer if someone needs an emergency extension. Stalls are no fun, and Dom4 games on the Codex typically have no limit on extensions. Of course, you are free to do things differently in your game.

That sounds like a good idea. Any volunteers?