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Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by imweasel, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Vibalist Arcane

    Vibalist
    Joined:
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    So I just landed in Golem City and I find it really, really hard to find the motivation to keep playing. I think it mostly comes down to the gameplay, which kind of goes counter to the notion that the story is the weak point. I know, I know. This is probably the closest we'll come to good level design and emergent gameplay in 2020, but everything is laughably easy. I've upgraded every relevant aug for the stealth path already (robot and turret hacking excepted, but when are these really needed?) and I breeze through most encounters the same way one did at the end of the first Deus Ex when JC was basically a modded-out warmachine. There's just nothing standing in my way and it destroys all sense of menace. Searching every nook and cranny of Prague has given me so many items and experience that I got into a fight with the entire police precinct and managed to kill every last one of them on my second attempt and this is with a build that isn't even combat oriented.

    Which is coincidentally the second problem I have with the gameplay: Hub exploration is mostly just breaking into every apartment and crawling into every vent and secluded space in order to hack yet another safe conveniently hidden behind a painting with an obvious handle next to it. Like there is waaay too much stuff lying around. Hunting for it is utterly repetitive, it levels you up too fast and it gives you a bunch of stuff that makes main missions a total cake walk. Secret areas in DX1 were usually better hidden, better designed and the stuff you found gave you an edge, not an arsenal.

    If the story was somewhat engaging I'd be inclined to ignore all of this, but I don't find a whole lot to latch onto here. Adam Jensen is a cool protagonist and I like some of his more subtle characterization, but the whole augs vs. normies angle (as the most obvious and at the same time most ill fitting stand in for racial tension ever invented by a storyteller) is so bad and it doesn't help that that shit is everywhere. It's not just the main plot: Every email you hack is a conversation about that shit. Every sidequest features it. Every news paper article, every random NPC you talk to on the street. Everything is about augs, augs, augs. Does no one in this entire fictional setting care about anything else? For a futuristic dystopia people have it quite easy if human augmentations is the all encompassing societal issue.

    I want this to be good and I want someone to take the solid foundation of Mankind Divided and Human Revolution and craft something truly exceptional. But I'm fucking bored already and I suspect I'm barely at the halfway point.
     
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  2. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    While nothing is stopping you from doing so, Prague shouldn't be thoroughly explored from the get-go. I explored a bit, when I got bored of that I went to a mission, then continued exploring when I came back. The side quests, however, are tied to progression of the main quest, so you should at least complete them before going to the main missions. The game warns you about that anyway. I'm playing Deus Ex with the GMDX mod on the side and I wouldn't say it's that different from the stealth path in MD. The biggest difference is how easy it is to get augments, the invisibility one in particular. It's too overpowered too fast. It just requires 2 Praxis points, so it's not even an issue of how many of them you get in Prague. If they make a 3rd Jensen episode, they should definitely resort to augmentation canisters like in DX1.
     
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  3. TemplarGR Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Bethestard

    TemplarGR
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    For what is worth, i think Mankind Divided becomes much more interesting in the second part of the game. I too agree the starting parts are less interesting both in terms of story and in terms of gameplay, and this is by design, the game does not throw too much at you at the beginning. But later the missions become harder, even traveling inside Prague becomes harder, and also the story becomes more interesting (only to abruptly end in a cliffhanger that angered a lot of fans after it was just beginning to become good). Golem city is not even the middle part of the campaign IIRC.

    As for the game being easy, try increasing the difficulty. I think you are playing at the lowest difficulty setting, i don't recall MD being that easy as you describe, especially in the ending parts of the campaign where i had to save/load quite a lot.
     
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  4. Vibalist Arcane

    Vibalist
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    I disagree that there is a 'should' and 'should not' with this type of game. If it lets me do it, I'll most likely do it (especially since, as a first time player, I have no idea if I will even return to the hub once I leave it) and there should be some semblance of balancing that makes sure it doesn't make me completely overpowered. Doing a clean sweep of every area and stealing everything that isn't nailed down is the ultimate DX experience after all.

    That is a good point, but stealthing DX was difficult due to other factors than just the scarcity and/or late game placement of certain canisters.

    1. DX1 lended you fewer helping hands such as the radar and the wall hack aug, so it was harder to spot patrols and get the lay of the land. You had to stick your head out on occasion, which meant getting spotted.

    2. Lockpicking, hacking and electronics were three distinct things that each required their own skills and items. If you were underlevelled in any of these or ran out of tools, you could find yourself in a situation where the obvious stealth and/or hacking path was blocked off. Contrast with MD where everything from doors to alarms to computers are hackable and multitools can also be used for hacking. You are never ever in a situation where you can't open a locked door and/or terminal. And even if you are, you can just use one of the several other paths like wall punching or moving a heavy object standing in front of an access point, as these are always plentiful.

    3. Computers had timers on them, so there was a certain amount of pressure on you if you wanted to fiddle around with cameras and bots and look through emails for information and passwords. Failed hacks also triggered alarms, as opposed to MD where you're merely locked out for X amount of seconds.

    4. Areas could be blocked off by environmental hazards that were genuinely dangerous, especially if you didn't level up the appropriate augs or skills. Contrast with MD where poisonous gas and electricity (the only two hazards you can encounter) are easily circumvented by two readily purchased augmentations that render you immune to all damage instead of merely decreasing damage taken like in DX (not to mention every room with gas in it has a convenient vent that will let it out of the room, so even without the aug it's just a matter of persistance).

    5. Proximity mines and traps were much more frequent and - in part due to no wall hack - harder to spot in DX1. Same thing with cameras.

    6. Then there was the issue of aim and the admittedly wonky hit detection that sometimes fucked up your blackjack attempts with the baton. Your cattle prod, the most reliable tool for takedowns, could run out of ammo, making it an inconsistent alternative at best. Attempting a knockout sometimes resulted in unintended chaos, whereas in MD it's always a completely reliable - not to mention silent - method.

    If you take all of this into account and then add MD's overpowered invisibility aug, the result is that the entire game is child's play almost from the beginning. And no amount of level design can make up for that fatal flaw (which is what easy difficulty is in any game).

    And keep in mind that I'm not even calling DX a hard stealth game.


    I'm definitely playing on the hardest difficulty setting (not counting the one that's locked until you complete the game).
     
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  5. Gargaune Savant

    Gargaune
    Joined:
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    Oh shit, dude! Disable the minimap! Like right now, don't ruin the game for yourself. Options -> Gameplay -> Radar, toggle that off and ignore any related augs for an instant upgrade to your DX4 experience.
     
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  6. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Also, failed hacking *does* raise alarms in MD, depending on context.
     
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  7. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
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    as long as you play stealth, difficulty makes absolutely 0 difference.
     
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  8. razvedchiki Liturgist Sad Loser

    razvedchiki
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    on the back of a T34.
    would increasing the praxis cost of augmentations make the game more balanced?
     
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  9. 502 Learned

    502
    Joined:
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    Can't help but think that the item balance was somewhat marred for the sake of the real money store.
     
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  10. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    It is not balanced because more than half the game is missing lol.
     
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  11. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    9,183
    Like I mentioned before, the AI is too dumb for what the player can do. It's actually immersion-breakingly dumb. It's like beating a 4 year old kid at a game.
     
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  12. vortex Fabulous Optimist

    vortex
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    • Informative Informative x 2
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  13. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
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    no one should pay to be inflicted deus ex 2.
     
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  14. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
    Joined:
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    9,183
    More clown worldness, nobody reacts to you breaking into their homes and stealing their shit, including Miller. It's so weird when the game has reactivity in some places but not others that seem to be a no brainer.
    Chang has a dialogue that you've been snooping in other people's computers, but I don't know if that is even triggered by you doing it, or if it happens anyway.
    E: I confirmed that Chang's dialogue is indeed based on your actions. :incline:
     
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  15. Twiglard Arcane Sad Loser

    Twiglard
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    • Merry Christmas! Merry Christmas! x 3
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  16. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    9,183
    The person responsible for the unavoidable alert in GARM deserves a kick in the balls.
    I hope he's making some shovelware now.
     
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  17. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
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    13,732
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I completed a Criminal Past. The two bigger DLC stories are definitely better than main game, which shouldn't really surprise us anymore, DLC tends to be better all the time. Both are very different from each other, so I don't have a favorite, both are pretty expansive and elaborate. Doing the optional things and exploring in a Criminal Past really changes your perspective on what exactly is happening. I also detected C&C, but I'm not sure if that's smoke and mirrors or actual C&C. The biggest one seems to be whether the prisoners are on your side after the revolt. Since I have to go to bed, I'll leave it here and see if a discussion starts. I feel like I have a lot to say, but also not really at the same time, it's weird.
     
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  18. Owl Savant Patron

    Owl
    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
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    Codex USB, 2014
    Show Spoiler
    It's avoidable
     
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  19. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
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    Yeah, if you read a walkthrough.
     
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  20. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
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    26,273
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Yo ash how do you activate the console commands?

    EDIT: Nothing funny mate,i want to enter the manderley's vault,and you can't do that without a noclip command :negative:.

    EDIT:EDIT: LoL wrong thread :).
     
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  21. Gerrard Arcane

    Gerrard
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2007
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    [​IMG]

    The disassembler aug is completely busted, I never upgraded my hacking (level 2 by default) and I still hacked pretty much everything, using multitools. It's obvious the game was not designed with this shit in mind, which is kinda weird in contrast to the other aug that comes from DLC which increases the detonation time of explosives.
    Still mad that gay GARM shit ruined my no-alarms playthrough (since I already saved after getting past the first area).
     
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  22. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
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    14,105
    Location:
    New Vegas
    I feel like in all games like this you have to make your own challenge, or at least not exploit the game mechanics so it stays challenging. Even in the original Deus Ex and Thief 2 and stuff I don't remember feeling like it was actually hard to do things, if you used the right equipment and skills and quicksaved between encounters. I also don't feel like combat challenge was ever the reason to play any of these games, it was the IMMERSHUN and stealth, the exploration and mood. Anyway, I'd recommend going for the "never get caught" style achievements in these new Deus Ex games, which... like Dishonored... were where I found the only real challenges in the game. Some sections absolutely make complete stealth without ever being seen at least somewhat of a challenge. Also the prison DLC has an achievement for beating it without ever using augments, which I remember thinking made for some nice stealth challenges. Also turn off most HUD elements and things like that.
     
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  23. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
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    screw you guys, between you praising this to no end and the godawful cyberpunk i went and bought this, despite having already played and finished vanilla through tortuga. i remembered the backtracking to be an issue but oh lawd it's even worse. almost every quest is split between the two areas, sometimes multiple times, i suppose jensen has a subscription to the metro otherwise he'd have been spent a fortune. this SCREAMS horriretarded level design. the whole map always feels so fake, with *forced* multiple ways through, everywhere corridors, junctions and air ducts which make absolutely zero sense. why the hell is the supersecret vault of doom hidden in a parking lot instead of the bank itself? weapons fusing upon themselves, another retarded choice. such an overabundance of points, i still have to do the station mission and i already own maxed hacking, stealth and own remote hack and superlegs. no place i can't reach, didn't really make any major choice in this and the game basically just started.
     
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  24. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
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    13,732
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Exploring everything in Prague before doing anything else will do that, but that is up to the player. Prague is actually very well designed, the metro stations are there for fast travel. Deus Ex 1 also has an abundance of ways to get to your objective. Even Liberty Island. Castle Clinton has at least 2 stealth ways in, one of it is through air ducts. Which supersecret vault of doom is in the parking lot?
     
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  25. Gargaune Savant

    Gargaune
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2020
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    812
    Bro, chill, explore a bit, pick up some quests and info to chase up on, then follow your priority objectives and resolve secondary leads in the vicinity at your discretion. As a rule of thumb, until you get on a chopper, you're free to move around. Dunno what's got you so worked up about the level design, it's generally strong throughout, perhaps second only to the original in the series. Don't go too hard on Prague's "unrealistic" air ducts, lest we begin debating why architects in the 2050s keep riddling secret laboratories and military bases with Denton-sized crawlspaces.

    He's probably talking about one of the access routes into Palisade which goes through the ventilation shafts in the underground parking lot. All I can say is eh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2021
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