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Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by imweasel, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. Vibalist Arcane

    Vibalist
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    I don't know about you, but if I'm allowed to explore everything, I will explore everything. OG DX also allowed you to explore, but doing so never made you OP.

    Really? The three metro stations that are in the same area have such long loading times you can probably walk faster.

    Yes, OG DX has a variety of options in terms of how you progress, but the key difference is that these ways usually cost a certain amount of resources or require certain skills to be at a certain level, meaning some are effectively locked off depending on your build and gear management. In MD resources are abundant and skills easy to level, so nothing is ever truly locked off to the player.
     
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  2. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Do you by any chance have DirectX 12 enabled? If so, turn it off, it considerably lowers loading times and gives better performance. Going to the metro stations takes more time than actually running to your destination, though, yeah. As for DX1, I'm playing it right now and just finished the first mission in Hell's Kitchen. The hubs in DX1 aren't as open as Prague and you can't go in every building like you can in Prague. I don't know whether it being so open and yuuuge was a good idea. I like the approach in DX1 better for this type of game maybe. It feels open with a lot of stuff going on (quite more moody and dark than MD too), but not bombarding you with augments. You do need to spend precious lockpicks and multitools to get through the alternate routes, though, which is indeed better in theory. In practice, however, you never really lack those consumables, it just feels that way because of their scarcity.
     
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  3. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    It is also a really good way to have flexible stat checks, the amount you spend of lockpicks to open a door is dependent of the difference between your skill and the door difficulty. Sure, you dont have enough skill to open the door? Fine, you can blow your lockpick reserves to open it but then lack lockpicks to open other doors later.
     
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  4. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    DX12 often performs better on newer cards though, FYI, so it depends which GPU you've got. Though maybe Mankind Divided just has shit DX12 across the board, I dunno.

    Anyway if you go into this (or Human Revolution) expecting them to live up to the original's warm place in your heart then you'll only be disappointed, but if you let them be what they are then they're pretty good. Certainly better than 90% of other "AAA" games.
     
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  5. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    As has been said many, many times before, Deus Ex 1 is still king, but HR and MD are pretty alright games on their own terms. Certainly better than the vaaaast majority of other AAA garbage.
     
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  6. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    Man, I just imagine a Deus Ex game with Arkane level design and Eidos Montreal Deus Ex team art direction. I think the modern Deus Ex nail on the art department above anything else, yes, sure, it doesnt make sense continuity wise with Deus Ex 1 having slick augmentations like that but man, HR and MD have great art direction. I need to credit that team also because they tried to preserve the minimum from Deus Ex 1 so it still felt like a Deus Ex experience, so many developers would fuck that up so badly, including people from the same company. (cough...thi4f...cough)

    I think the major weakness are the popamole (unavoidable on all AAA games, no big publisher will publish a game like Deus Ex 1 again) and their level design is too straightfoward, with exception of Prague that was really well done, most main missions on HR and MD are meh, that is why the team who made Prey could do a fantastic new Deus Ex game, there is some really fantastic level design on the first half of that game. The Palisade bank heist DLC is an example of all that is good and bad on MD, the street area outside the bank is actually more creative level design wise than the bank itself that is very meh. They are all over the place in level design, on Prague, the level design is non linear and creative but when you are on a mission area, they turn linear mode hard.
     
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  7. Gargaune Savant

    Gargaune
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    I don't think you needed to mix anyone else in the development, between Prague and the Criminal Past DLC, the Montreal crew definitely seemed to have the chops for appropriate DX level design, it was just a matter of getting them to do more of "that" in their following game.

    I do agree with you that the art direction was exceptional, even if incongruous with the original. Even in that regard, MD clearly reigned in some of those discrepancies relative to HR, so maybe they had a shot at bridging the gap in a third installment. And generally speaking, looking at Cyberpunk now, while I can recognise CDPR characteristically did superb work with their art direction, I like Montreal's DX better in both visual and audio design.

    A shame we'll never get to see how this team intended to wrap up the Jensen trilogy. Even if Square pull their heads out of their asses and greenlight the final installment, it won't be the same people and it won't be the same design. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some Square exec is eyeballing Cyberpunk right now and defecating "like that, but with fewer bugs and more activities" on some poor, defenseless email.
     
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  8. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    What the biggest dissonance between DX1 and nu-DX is the prevalence of mechanical augmentations. In DX1, only military or ex-military people seem to have augments. JC even remarks on the augments and their heaviness of the barkeeper in the Underworld bar, she replies she's ex-UNATCO. She only has augmented arms. Either that or I wasn't paying attention whether other people have augments. I'll definitely do that in this playthrough.
     
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  9. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    I think people mostly complain about the visual design of them. In the original they're presented as clunky and mechanical, while in Human Revolution there are a ton of sleek augments. You can explain this away by saying the military gave that bartender chick and Hermann cheap implants though, or something. Also it's like the Klingon makeup shit that autists obsess over, the actual reason of course is that graphics and art design advance and change over the decades. Human Revolution was never going to be a slave to Deus Ex's visual design just like Star Trek TNG was never going to be a slave to a 60's show.
     
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  10. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    That is also a problem, yes, especially since a big part of Hermann's character is he thinks he's a monster who will never look normal and is slowly being devalued by JC and Paul. Anna Navarre also comments on that, but not to that degree. They could've made them more machine-like or skeletal-like. Imagine an augmented hand looking like a Pale Master-like skeletal hand made of metal. That would've been cool too, and on top of that more in-line with DX1.
     
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  11. Gargaune Savant

    Gargaune
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    No, that's absolutely correct and it's something I've commented on myself - Eidos Montreal shifted the aesthetics and rationale of augmentations from Ion Storm's originally specialist applicability to consumer fashion, moving the focus from competition-driven technological dehumanisation to more of a commentary on consumer culture. Not entirely, but that's the direction, and I found it harder to buy into than the original premise.

    And yes, people with augmentations are quite rare in the general population, like the Underworld bartender or the occasional merc, such as the drug dealer in the Mole People's hideout. Even among specialised trades it varies, UNATCO soldiers have those weird black eyes, but the Chinese troops don't seem to sport any augs.

    However, an interesting note is that if you take another look at Mankind Divided, you'll see that the visual design for augmentations is starting to inch closer to that of the original DX. Jensen's augs are still very much per HR fashion, but many of the Prague civilians are displaying more "basic", mechanical-looking models. This is why I was curious to see whether a third installment in Montreal's series would take it even further and try to more appropriately blend into DX's 2050s.
     
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  12. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    They can easily make it so that the constant pressure from anti-augmentation groups made it harder and harder for civilians to get access to augmentations, relegating the industry to serving only military specialists, which in turn lead to function over form design.
     
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  13. MadMaxHellfire Arcane

    MadMaxHellfire
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    well, in md it's pointed out how there's only 7.5m augs left (in the world? sounds a bit low. in europe? might be) and how augs clinics are in ruins. it'd take little for augs to go out of fashion, have only the sturdiest, oldest, ugliest augmentations survive and then move to nanotech as in deus ex. lore is the last of this game's problems.
     
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  14. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    What is strange is that nobody in the world finds strange that pretty much all augs go insane just after an official update, that is just shit writing, the pressure to find a culprit would be insane and people wouldnt be so retarded to treat aug people as second class people without even questioning the companies that made the augs in the first place and wanting the heads of the owners, it would be crazy pitchfork mobs everywhere.

    This bit of shitty writing makes the whole background plot of MD really strange and hard to buy into.
     
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  15. Gargaune Savant

    Gargaune
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    The "Aug Incident" was a dreadful writing decision and Eidos Montreal's biggest mistake in their prequel series. Nevermind the "who" and the "why", the "how" is just as farfetched in terms of a mechanical arm giving the user a sudden case of the techno-rabies. Basically, it's just a digital spin on the zombie virus motif, and there's little more to be said for it.
     
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  16. Vibalist Arcane

    Vibalist
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    The writing in these new installments is just not good. It goes way beyond the Aug Incident which imho was just the cherry on top. DX1 touches upon a variety of neat ideas and has a coherent if far fetched world that seems planned down to the smallest details like newspaper articles and fake in-game novels, whereas HR and MD kind of sort of try to say something about augs while not really knowing what it's even a metaphor for and why there should be such a myopic focus on this one issue to the exclusion of everything else.

    The absolute worst part is how random NPC's will always talk about augs - most often your augs specifically - and have a strong opinion on the subject as if that is in any way natural human behavior. NPC's in OG DX talked about dropping their beverages or how they were hungry or maybe some of the deeper themes of the game like government surveillance, AI, the military, the plague, whatever. They behaved like actual people, despite their awful voice acting and uncanny facial expressions, which is why you bought into the premise instead of always feeling like you were being presented with a 2 deep 4 u narrative more synthetic than Jensen himself.
     
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  17. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    I don't remember having a real problem with the writing. I think the idea of the "father of augments" regretting his decision like Oppenheimer and trying to destroy the technology like that was a neat idea. Many here get overly picky about writing but I guess I just don't expect classic cinema writing from video games either way. These modern Deus Ex's are definitely above par for video game writing by a good amount, even if they can't compare to something like Ex Machina or Gattaca (because no game really does).
     
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  18. Nano Prestigious Gentleman Arcane Patron

    Nano
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    You mean you find it hard to believe that most people blindly believe what governments and corporations tell them?
     
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  19. Daud Literate

    Daud
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    I agree, I would add that HR is a great game(MD just didn't click with me as well). I finished, completed and thoroughly enjoyed HR 3 times. It sucks that we don't have other competitors at the moment or another good installment of the series.
     
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  20. DeepOcean Arcane

    DeepOcean
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    Nah, if your story depends that everyone is stupid retardred all the time, you are probably the stupid. People are self interested, goverments and corporations can't lie someone out of his self interest, their lies are all about pretending they are serving the interest of people and exploiting people lack of knowledge that they are being fooled. There is no way you can convince a guy which his son gone ape shit and murdered a ton of people, that it was just that he became evil and oput of control all of sudden. He would say fuck you and seek the cyber aug factory on a heartbeat, the desire to blame someone with money is also on his self interest.

    A megacorp would be a pretty juicy target for rage.

    The event happened right on the same time frame, all over the world. Old people are scared of vaccines because some of them die right after taking one, imagine an event of this magnitude? Also, pogroms like the one happening on MD isnt shit that start overnight but are shit that are many cases in the making for decades and centuries.
     
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  21. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Dishonored is a good choice, just with a more 18-19th century flavor. I'm surprised we haven't seen more indie efforts, but this isn't an easy game to make so maybe it isn't that surprising.
     
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  22. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

    DalekFlay
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    Yeah we need more indie Deus Ex's and Morrowinds. Technology seems to be coming around to make that easier, if recent games from New Blood and similar companies are any judge. Graven and Gloomhaven look good.

    One of the few out there, Neon Struct, is a game I bounced off of for some reason when it came out, but I keep meaning to give it another go.
     
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  23. AW8 Arcane

    AW8
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    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Funny thing is that the Star Wars sequels actually went out of their way to make their costumes and props look like the old movies (ignoring how the prequels had made everything sleeker and modern despite being set earlier) and it just made it look like cheap cosplay.
    The way it looked like they had just picked up where the 80's left off further showcased their lack of originality which made me stop watching after the first film.

    They should have definitely said "fuck it" and gone with a new art direction that wouldn't feel dated in 2015.
     
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  24. Daud Literate

    Daud
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    Well, yes, I was thinking about a cyberpunk setting, I love Dishonored if that wasn't already clear.
     
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  25. lightbane Arcane

    lightbane
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    If you use CASIE, he reveals that he initiated the not-zombie rampage worldwide because he was butthurt he couldn't use augs himself like most people, only to realize what he did and regretting it. Still felt weak and forced, but that's nothing compared to the super-computer powered by the souls brains and bodies of LITTLE GIRLS! (tm) that was HR's final boss. The augs conveniently needing a drug to work was probably a plot of the Illuminati, which was already self-destructing while Bob Page was slowly but surely taking over. I still have to play MD, but is the cellphone game adaptation any good?
     
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