Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

[Zer0wing]

So what am I missing?.

You haven't played Human Revolution that carefully to see what "not rewarding" really means.

 

[J1M]

When they say the game is 'an open sandbox' does that mean I can go around getting XP for enemies that generate within the sandbox?. Because constatnly trying to get the double dip twosome takedows for XP is getting tiresome. I mean throwing buckets at enemies' heads repeatedly in the hope of herding them to one place to get a double takedown with the guy next to them (who seems to be completely oblivious) is just too infuriating to continue doing.

I don't remember it being this retarded in the first game. Even the noisemaker arrows in Thief2 were simple for the AI to follow. I know there's an argument for making the game too easy, but having shit AI enemies that don't know you just shoved a traffic cone up their asses isn't a fix.

There's no reason to do that. You get plenty of points and the last points you allocate are the least impactful. You are making the game less fun by autisticly optimizing something that doesn't matter.

 

[Gargaune]

Uninstalled. Several reasons: game makes me nauseous because of the film grain effect that can't be turned off. It's also poorly made e.g. I can't get takedows on enemies that are leaning against walls. Enemy line of sight is fucked: I can creep around them crouched waving my arms like an autist but other times they see me instantly when I'm at 150 degrees to them. Reminded me of broken stealth in vanilla Skyrim.

So enemy AI is garbage and only a "challenge" because of how broken it is. E.g. The ambush at the beginning with the singh guy; I just breezed through all of the enemies with one takedown after another and didn't get spotted once. When they were teleporting all over the place and moving around like army ants, then I died with a shotgun to the face when I was clicking like a retard at the library section trying to get a takedown on a guy leaning against the wall and he spotted me at 150 degrees to him...???...WTF???.

The story is boring. There's too much dialogue. There's these long drawn out fucking cutscenes that can't be skipped. I'm just assuming it's the film grain that makes me nauseous, could be the FOV.

Constatnly amazes me that these high profile games can be made with such glaring faults. Don't understand why you just can't turn film grain off. Some frog developer asshole sitting there thinking: "I amm an arqtist and the plebs will apprrchqiate my arqt withe this grainyye effect".

Not even worth the sale price I got it for. 2/10.

Subject: Chippy
Nationality: Codexian
Series/ID: 2018/25137

Status Summary:
Defective

Detailed Assessment:
Unit shows recurring anti-inclinational behaviour along multiple axes. Subject unresponsive to conventional stimuli and persisting in self-destructive practices. Decline contact probable, risk of contagion present.

Remedial Recommendations:
Immediate removal to Cyberpunk 2077 Correctional Colony for residential re-education programme, 6-month term. Reinsertion into general population strictly conditional on board review of monocle markers reaching acceptable levels by means of reinstalling Deus Ex 4 and fucking liking it.

 

[Chippy]

So what am I missing?.

You haven't played Human Revolution that carefully to see what "not rewarding" really means.

I've proven the XP gains are not the same for lethal vs non lethal in Mankind Divided after you said something about me being a flaming retard who should die in a dumpster for not getting it, and that the XP gains were the same. I suppose this is some sort of trolling excercise where you try to get people to go full autist as Gargaune suggests I'm going.

Which is a real possibility on these forums. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[Chippy]

When they say the game is 'an open sandbox' does that mean I can go around getting XP for enemies that generate within the sandbox?. Because constatnly trying to get the double dip twosome takedows for XP is getting tiresome. I mean throwing buckets at enemies' heads repeatedly in the hope of herding them to one place to get a double takedown with the guy next to them (who seems to be completely oblivious) is just too infuriating to continue doing.

I don't remember it being this retarded in the first game. Even the noisemaker arrows in Thief2 were simple for the AI to follow. I know there's an argument for making the game too easy, but having shit AI enemies that don't know you just shoved a traffic cone up their asses isn't a fix.

There's no reason to do that. You get plenty of points and the last points you allocate are the least impactful. You are making the game less fun by autisticly optimizing something that doesn't matter.

That's a fair point based on metagaming knowlege. I would assume that I'm more autistic than others that I try to optimise XP at the start of an RPG? I'm not talking about the dumbfuckery of going after a sirine at level 1 in BG, but most people know that if the opportunity is there at "level 1" to get more XP with a bit more effort, you go for it. Like the ghost XP bonus.

If the game does participation award XP anyway, that's interesting but not immidiately obvious. So I'm assuming that what some people are saying is that if you say hi to each enemy before shooting them in the face, you get the same XP (at the end of each level) as non lethal takedowns and remaining undetected?. Or you get the XP in the long run?.

 

[Atlantico]

I have a high tolerance for autism, but a shithead sperging over "optimal XP" in a game that showers you with more XP than you'll ever need, is just such a monumental waste of space I lack the words to describe that level of retardation.

 

[J1M]

Weird how the XP autists are so concerned with the difference for a single enemy, but never do the simple math for how many enemies you'd need to apply that to in order for it to matter.

 

[Carrion]

Actually, the thing I'd want most for DX4's stealth would be first-person cover. You know, since I can't have leaning.

I'm not sure what the point would be, as I prefer the freedom of not having my character's ass glued into a chest-high wall. I remember reading something about people getting spotted or shot behind obstacles when not in cover mode, but I got through both HR and MD several times using just the crouch button and remember no such issues. Leaning is probably the one single gameplay improvement that I would've liked to see the most, along with proper melee weapons instead of takedown cutscenes, but the games still give you so many tools to observe your surroundings that there's no reason to use the cover system at all.

 

[Gargaune]

I'm not sure what the point would be, as I prefer the freedom of not having my character's ass glued into a chest-high wall. I remember reading something about people getting spotted or shot behind obstacles when not in cover mode, but I got through both HR and MD several times using just the crouch button and remember no such issues. Leaning is probably the one single gameplay improvement that I would've liked to see the most, along with proper melee weapons instead of takedown cutscenes, but the games still give you so many tools to observe your surroundings that there's no reason to use the cover system at all.

I wouldn't mind a manual first-person cover if it means I can peer out from it. I'd rather have manual leaning, of course, but controller input schemes have driven that animal extinct in modern gaming so I'll take what I can get. I just dislike being thrown into third-person gameplay in a DX title and since I absolutely refuse to use the minimap, the only awareness I could get from mere crouching behind cover is radar vision. There's also the dash function to consider for rushing from cover to cover, which you don't need, sure, but you can make that argument for plenty of other game features.

 

[Ninjerk]

Just finished this game today. I never expected to spend money on this game after being one of the early DX fans that got suckered onto EM's forums in a cynical effort to create viral marketing, but I think it was on sale while I was living in Russia and I got to pay Russian prices since GOG Galaxy detected my Russian IP address or something so I figured what the hell. They really ended on a weird note and I really expected to fight Marchenko a lot earlier.

Anyways, this game really excelled for me in the parts where you're just traversing Prague through vents and windows hacking shit and giving half the population of Prague CTE. When the writer or whoever decided it was time to make an emotional or intellectual impact, the whole thing falls apart, e.g. the hand touch in Ruzicka with the little kid, the stupid time limit when you have to enter civilian credentials in that closed office, the stupid dilemma in the bomb maker quest, and it even seemed like there was a dilemma between Marchenko and saving the UN delegates. You're not making some profound point about not being able to solve everyone's problems, you're reminding me that I'm consuming a product with a poorly juxtaposed set of options. Clearing out the Versalife vault and saving some kid that fell in with radicals aren't naturally mutually exclusive circumstances--you just chose to introduce me to the characters 15 minutes ago and I haven't even begun to give a shit about them but I *DO* give a shit about seeing what Versalife was up to before my beloved classic Deus Ex. I noticed in the review by TNO that he felt they effectively communicated well that time was of the essence--I felt the complete opposite until maybe when the city was placed under martial law. By that point the good things about the gameplay were growing stale and the bad parts began to feel particularly odious, and I thus felt the need to rush through the game before my appetite to finish completely vanished.

I appreciate that Jensen was slightly more of a blank slate this time around (you could choose what personality to express in a lot of conversations) and less of a sanctimonious moron. There's still remnants of the old Riggs and Murtaugh bullshit buddy cop dynamic that Jensen and Pritchard suffered from in Human Revolution, but thankfully they don't lean on it or constantly shove MacReady and Chikane in constantly to try to capitalize on it.

The Event or whatever it was called from Human Revolution was just... such a poor idea and is a bomb sitting underneath the setting that they never seem willing to walk away from (but how can you?). There are so many other ways a person could imagine there being a rift between augmented and non-augmented members of society with resorting to the whole "zombie movie" idea. It makes me wonder if anybody on the team has actually read any speculative fiction a la Philip K. Dick.

Another thing that puzzled me a bit was the Solzhenitsyn reference by Talos Rucker. Was it a meaningful reference? What was the "mistake" exactly that Solzhenitsyn made? This game, and maybe Eidos Montreal in general, need themselves their own Sheldon Pacotti if they want to tackle the ideas they seem to want in their game.

All that said, I have to say something I never thought I would say having played this game after all the ups and downs I've felt over this series (including being an hour into playing IW on my friend's XBox back in the day, knowing even then that the game was complete shit and just slogging through it to the end in disbelief because I had to know where they were taking the characters and the world): this feels like the slightly disappointing but technically better sequel that studios sometimes produce on the way to making a classic, a la MGS3 (the game I always thought was their original and overwhelming inspiration for DX:HR). Having once been a fanatical player of the Source mod Dystopia, I can totally see a world in which the fundamental gameplay of EM's DX working in an objective based multiplayer game mode and they could totally do whatever this eternal monetization bullshit shtick they tried to shoehorn into this game for the multiplayer version. I seriously can't tell how it works or why I would ever pay for single player MTXs, but I have and do pay when there's a multiplayer element in play (although I don't think P2W is the way to go and what I've spent money on is far less P2W than I probably make it sound).

Hopefully they can keep enough of the team together to make a 3rd game a possibility if their team ever gets the green light to lead their own project again.

 

[kangaxx]

Another thing that puzzled me a bit was the Solzhenitsyn reference by Talos Rucker. Was it a meaningful reference? What was the "mistake" exactly that Solzhenitsyn made? This game, and maybe Eidos Montreal in general, need themselves their own Sheldon Pacotti if they want to tackle the ideas they seem to want in their game.

I couldn't remember the reference because I haven't played in a while, but the Wiki says:

"In his conversation with Jensen, Rucker states that if he surrenders to Jensen, he will be made to disappear. Rucker then says that he will not make "Solzhenitsyn's mistake." This phrase could be a reference to the Russian novelist Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's self-described "unpardonable mistake," which refers to Solzhenitsyn's premature reveal of his (literary) work in the 1960s, which resulted in his inability to complete his work when it became suppressed by authorities."

It's a bit of a tortured reference IMO (and probably not deliberately so..).

 

[Silverfish]

I have a high tolerance for autism, but a shithead sperging over "optimal XP" in a game that showers you with more XP than you'll ever need, is just such a monumental waste of space I lack the words to describe that level of retardation.

Come on, now. The game hands praxis points out like candy and half the augmentations are worthless. Who wouldn't struggle under such circumstances?

 

[Gargaune]

Clearing out the Versalife vault and saving some kid that fell in with radicals aren't naturally mutually exclusive circumstances--you just chose to introduce me to the characters 15 minutes ago and I haven't even begun to give a shit about them but I *DO* give a shit about seeing what Versalife was up to before my beloved classic Deus Ex.

Eh. It's a roleplaying opportunity even if a bit forced, does Jensen pursue an elusive Illuminatti conspiracy or does he stick to his actual job? I think a lot of people tend to see that choice as being about "saving" Allison Stanek, but I tried to play Jensen as a cop first and foremost, and it was a more pragmatic matter of apprehending a prime suspect in the Ruzicka attack.

From a metagaming perspective, VersaLife is the more attractive option for veterans of the series, but within the logic of the plot I found I didn't struggle too much when I chose to go after Stanek instead. I did go back to play the VersaLife branch as well after I finished the OC and all the DLC, but that's because I enjoyed the game so much that I wanted to squeeze every bit of gameplay out of it.

Overall, DX4's writing is widely acknowledged as being its weakest point, sufferring from thematic overreach, an unsatisfying conclusion as a middle chapter, and DX3's baggage (like said zombie "Aug Incident"), but I found it serviceable enough to carry the star of the show - the best Deus Ex gameplay I've gotten since the original Deus Ex.

 

[kangaxx]

I'll admit I didn't even think twice before choosing to break into Versalife's vault!

 

[Gerrard]

I spent hours looking for that fucking keycard only to later find out it was a story thing.

 

[Ninjerk]

Clearing out the Versalife vault and saving some kid that fell in with radicals aren't naturally mutually exclusive circumstances--you just chose to introduce me to the characters 15 minutes ago and I haven't even begun to give a shit about them but I *DO* give a shit about seeing what Versalife was up to before my beloved classic Deus Ex.

Eh. It's a roleplaying opportunity even if a bit forced, does Jensen pursue an elusive Illuminatti conspiracy or does he stick to his actual job? I think a lot of people tend to see that choice as being about "saving" Allison Stanek, but I tried to play Jensen as a cop first and foremost, and it was a more pragmatic matter of apprehending a prime suspect in the Ruzicka attack.

I rather felt like a private detective in a noir film doing a lot of the side content--especially the Neon questline. I had high hopes they'd use the Neon+neuropozyne combination to explain Rucker, but alas. My problem is primarily with the Infolink spam as you take the elevator or whatever transitional element it was--oh, you want to make a choice? Well, we're going to give you a consequence, even if it is jarring and arbitrary.

 

[Fenix]

Not enough awesome button augs used on multiple enemies/awesome button takedowns, not enough head and limb shots, you're not letheal stealther. Nonlethal is an easy mode. It's still stupid of you not to notice that HR doesn't give as much lethal XP per encounter as DXMD does.

He is absolutely rigth - this shit with exp is tedious, and meanngless. It's a mini-game inside a game, it seems it added only to fill the holes in game, to get player's attantion, and to fuck up autists completitionists like me.
DX didn't have that and is a perfectly fine game nonetheless.

There's no reason to do that. You get plenty of points and the last points you allocate are the least impactful. You are making the game less fun by autisticly optimizing something that doesn't matter.

You are rigth, but that doesn't change the fact that lethal ways gives less epx than none-lethal.
It looks like bastardized moralisation attempt.

+++
In case I would never return to finish the game, for me the worst problem with it is that I can't explore the game freely without concerns that I will breake the game - for example, I broke in that mafia meth lab in sewers only to know that I'm not supposed to do that now, and the game even not asknowledging that in dialogues! the fuck.
Mostly it is about Ghost completition, but it even break the dialogues/quests.
This shit is unforgivable.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'd say it is a moral issue in the case of all the Deus Exes whether you kill people or not. Since JC, Alex, and Adam have the possibility and skill to be merciful, I see no reason to kill these people. Considering all the protagonists are superhuman and fighting mostly normal people (especially in Deus Ex 1), killing them is not only abuse of power but also unforgivably cruel. You could argue some of them "deserve" to die, but that's a shaky philosophical argument (not that it isn't legit in some cases, just not very convincing from an intellectual point of view).

 

[Nano]

I'd say it is a moral issue in the case of all the Deus Exes whether you kill people or not. Since JC, Alex, and Adam have the possibility and skill to be merciful, I see no reason to kill these people. Considering all the protagonists are superhuman and fighting mostly normal people (especially in Deus Ex 1), killing them is not only abuse of power but also unforgivably cruel. You could argue some of them "deserve" to die, but that's a shaky philosophical argument (not that it isn't legit in some cases, just not very convincing from an intellectual point of view).

I'm going to enjoy slicing open people's throats and there's nothing you can do to stop me, bitch.

 

[Lacrymas]

'k

 

[Gargaune]

I'd say it is a moral issue in the case of all the Deus Exes whether you kill people or not.

Also known as "roleplaying." The non-systemic variety with setpiece reactivity in DX1, such as how characters like Paul or Anna react to you or whether Carter gives you ammo or not. Granted, I don't recall an analogue to that in DX4 which seems to be going for a limited systemic feedback with this XP business, one which I maintain is irrelevant in the game's economy - just do what comes natural to your image of Jensen's character.

'k

Guys, I get really uneasy about the lack of commas in "I found this text to be too long and, as such, I didn't read it."

 

[Wirdschowerdn]

 

[kangaxx]

It annoys me how badly this and the Shock IPs have been managed.. two of my favourite series.

 

[Gargaune]

It annoys me how badly this and the Shock IPs have been managed.. two of my favourite series.

I think it's only a matter of time before Square digs Deus Ex back up again, but I'm not optimistic. I'd have loved to see Eidos Montreal conclude their Jensen trilogy, they did a wonderful job all in all, but with DX4 underperforming it's quite likely the publisher will wanna change the formula and it won't be for the better. Oh, God, they're probably talking "Cyberpunk but without bugs" right now, aren't they?

 

[Lacrymas]

Cyberpunk is a PR disaster, though, so I doubt anyone is looking to copy it.