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Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by imweasel, Aug 23, 2016.

  1. J1M Arcane

    J1M
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    The first mission is a tutorial. One patterned off the statue of liberty mission. In a better time (1999) it would have been optional.
     
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  2. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    Not the point.

    No.

    No. (see original Deus Ex)
     
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  3. Gargaune Magister

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    Yeah, it takes a special sort of incompetence to screw up with such a solid product like Mankind Divided.

    I'm actually quite chuffed with Prague's aesthetic, I think it worked well as a fusion of old and new and hit the right notes for a spy thriller episode. It's not your usual Gibson/Scott/Oshii cyberpunk, but Eidos Montreal set out to do their own "neo renaissance" style from the start, and I felt MD did a better, more grounded job of it than HR. And it's not like the original Deus Ex strictly adhered to that traditional cyberpunk aesthetic either, you had the rather contemporary urban decay of Hell's Kitchen, the (admittedly underdeveloped) neon cyberpunk of Hong Kong, and the old world elegance of ancient secret societies-ridden Paris.

    Too expensive, I think. The way Eidos Montreal recycled Prague was brilliant, sharing the bulk of the assets between each of the three visits but changing just enough to keep it fresh every time. The game's five-year development cycles was already costing Square a pretty penny, so I guess it was a choice between reusing a single, more complex hub, or having multiple, simpler hubs like HR did. The way the original DX did multiple social hubs has become cost-prohibitive with modern AAA assets.

    Yep, totally onboard there.
     
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  4. Lacrymas Arcane

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    I like Prague and it does look more "realistic" in the sense that the new is combined with the old, like a real city in real life is. You don't demolish old buildings because you just built a new one across the street (unfortunately, in some circumstances). MD's biggest issue, if we distance ourselves from the mindboggling sales strategy, is and has always been the writing. The writers struggle to say something relevant and that's always a problem in a cyberpunk setting. It's no coincidence that the most interesting aspects are either unexplored or connected to Deus Ex 1. I remember posting a screenshot here of my recent Deus Ex 1 playthrough where I argued that the first newspaper you encounter is more thought-provoking and witty than the entirety of the Jensen games. The gameplay of the Jensen games is mostly excellent with a few balance issues and very close to Deus Ex 1, so writing is the culprit imo. As for why MD didn't meet sales expectations, I don't know. Perhaps it was because of the awful microtransactions and catastrophic pre-release PR. But maybe a lot of things.
     
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  5. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    I agree, the writing in MD struggled to have a point, to say something other than "racism/discrimination bad m'kay" and other such banal and uncontroversial ideas.

    It feels even more bland and conformist in a post covid world, when reality has a better plot and better conspiracies than DXHR and MD combined.
     
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  6. Butter Arcane

    Butter
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    That's because reality was written by Sheldon Pacotti.
     
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  7. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    So was Invisible War
     
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  8. J1M Arcane

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    Did you forget about the tutorial button on the Deus Ex title screen?
     
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  9. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    The tutorial in DX which you can skip takes two minutes to "play" and is used to teach basic world interaction. Nothing more.

    Then the tutorial mission starts on Liberty Island. It's an elegant gameplay design.

    The tutorial mission isn't skippable in DX either, only the absolute basics on world interaction are skippable.

    First mission in MD can be charitably described as analogous to the first mission in DX, also containing the two minute basic world interaction tutorial.

    Except the MD tutorial mission isn't connected to the rest of the game, like the tutorial mission in DX. That's the problem, not that it's a tutorial mission.

    The tutorial mission in DX fits the world, sets the tone for what is to come, and leads you down the rabbit hole.

    The tutorial mission in MD is completely detached from the world, looks nothing like anything you'll encounter in the rest of the game, doesn't fit the look or feel of the rest of the game and plays like Adam Jensen meets Call of Duty 2050.

    That's the problem.
     
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  10. Lacrymas Arcane

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    The tutorial mission in MD is technically connected to the world, it's part of the big city project for augmented people by augmented people. You read a lot about it in newspapers. There are a lot of attempts to sabotage it in order to make augmented people look bad. I think the terrorists in the tutorial mission are a symptom of that.
     
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  11. Owl Savant Patron

    Owl
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    The problem with the first MD level is that it's almost completely linear, which is baffling in a freaking Deus Ex game. Liberty Island, while more simplistic than the later levels in DX, showcases the open-ended level design and multiple paths of the game beautifully.
     
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  12. vortex Fabulous Optimist

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    When they were making game they didn't have the engine powerful enough for what you're saying, methinks. I think loading transitions are the worst.
     
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  13. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    Don't be silly and no that doesn't mean it's connected to the game. It's not even connected to the narrative.

    It doesn't reflect anything found in the game later, not in narrative, not in gameplay (it's linear) and not in atmosphere.
     
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  14. J1M Arcane

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    I'm not sure why this is hard to understand. The first mission in MD is a tutorial. The first mission in Deus Ex is not.

    Modern design says that you can't trust the player, so you need to shove your tutorial into the critical path of the game. Also that everything must be cinematic. And that asset creation is expensive.

    A + B + C = Sending an elite agent alone into hostile enemy territory and then interrupting the game several times to teach him how to hide behind boxes. Also, since those assets were so expensive, we'd better make sure the content of that tutorial is dense with world building and recapping the previous game's events because we can't trust the player. All constraints that lead to a linear design.

    The grand irony of course is that by having a linear first level/slice, you are training the player/designers to view your game as linear.

    That's how we end up with "3 linear path" design when choices is on the box, instead of something that feels more natural and intuitive.

    There are certainly characters trying to help you on liberty island over comms. That doesn't make it a tutorial. You can easily die to the first encounters, skip large portions of the map, or create chaos by setting off all the alarms.
     
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  15. Niggerino Savant

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    This is a complete decline though. And it even seems that this kind of thing is completely normal today which is even more of a :decline:
     
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  16. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    I'm not sure why this is hard to understand:

    It teaches you how to play the game. That's a tutorial.

    The optional "tutorial" doesn't teach you the game, only inputs and basic interactions. That's not a tutorial, it's a compendium to the keyboard controls.
     
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  17. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    In what way is the first DX mission a tutorial? You get a few pointers via your intercom, but that is it. They are brief reminders so the player knows what you can do and they do not interupt your game. That takes barely 10 seconds. Meanwhile DX:HR constantly interupts your gameplay with mandatory special tutorial videos to tell you the most dumb obvious shit that anyone who has played one FPS/3rd person shooter game knows.
    And let us not get started on the overabundance of cutscenes and slow walk shit before the tutorial even starts.
     
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  18. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

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    Tutorials don't have to interrupt your game.

    The first mission of DX is a smaller version of everything you face later in the game. That's the tutorial.

    The Irenicus dungeon in BG2 is a tutorial dungeon as well.

    The first mission in DX MD is a tutorial mission as well.

    Reminder that the first mission in MD is not called a tutorial mission, but it is.

    This is why I rarely stop by General RPG anymore, this is just too autistic for me. Have fun arguing about "what is a tutorial", just make sure you figure out what is an RPG first.

    Goddam autists
     
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  19. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    What a bunch of nonsense. Also "autistic"? Well you are in very good company then.
     
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  20. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

    Atlantico
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    It's not my company, but your input on "what is a tutorial" is super important, so keep going and explain it further! You know you want to.
     
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  21. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    You are still posting. :lol:
     
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  22. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

    Atlantico
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    So what? Did I claim otherwise in you mind? [​IMG][​IMG]

    Does autism also cause you to imagine dialogue?

    I wrote that I'm done arguing about "what a tutorial" is.

    Imagine dropping in on a discussion on a game, just to argue about what a tutorial is

    Show Spoiler
    that's autism
     
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  23. Sykar Arcane

    Sykar
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    All I see is another empty headed retard who is nothing but full of himself but please continue to fabricate nonsensical points and tell us that we are the "dumb autists" while you are the "supereme intellect" here. :lol:
     
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  24. Atlantico unida e indivisible Patron

    Atlantico
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    So you're posting in front of a mirror, because one thing is for sure you're the only person you can possibly see right now. And well, the shoe fits.

    We? How many of you are in the room there with you, right now?

    Mind quoting me on that?
     
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  25. Spukrian Scholar

    Spukrian
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    I finished MD just yesterday and am still mulling it over. Well, I liked it better than HR (I really didn't like HR) at least. I guess MD is a good game, just doesn't feel like Deus Ex.

    I really liked Prague. Exploring the city is my favourite thing in the game. I liked the hacking minigame, probably the second best hacking minigame in these type of games (after System Shock 1) but this was already present in HR.

    Occasionally I got bit bored (in Golem City and near the end of the game) and just rushed through...

    I don't know what else to say.
     
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