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Diablo vs Diablo II

Diablo vs Diablo II? Who wins?

  • Diablo

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • Diablo II

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • Diablo II: LoD (click this if you think LoD inclined D2)

    Votes: 2 22.2%
  • they're shit (but I secretly played and enjoyed them)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • they're shit (stupid clickfest game)

    Votes: 1 11.1%

  • Total voters
    9

hydd

Guest
I voted Diablo 1. Diablo 1 and Might & Magic 6 were the 2 computer games I started out with. That said, I'm partial towards Diablo 1 for nostalgia/"oh shit" moments, even though I played the hell out of Diablo 2 Batllenet.

Even with the massive timesink I invested into Diablo 2, I'd say it's a decline. The silly high magic prefix/suffix trend that nearly every developer (especially Blizzard) has followed for action role playing games is a headache.
 

DraQ

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kaizoku said:
What do you mean by consistent world design?
I mean that if your game is set in faux medieval Occident world and its premise only really works in the context of quasi-christian mythology with manichaeistic tint, YOU DON'T FUCKING THROW DESERT CATGIRLS NOR AZTEC VATICAN WITH DEMON-POSSESSED ENTS IN IT.
:x

If D2 had nothing but the same type of location I'm sure people would complain that the areas look exactly the same as D1.
Diablo had four. And there could be many interesting locations in D2 if it didn't go full derp. Lut-Golein and associated locations would pretty much work readily if you removed derpy catgirls, beetles and clawvipers, and toned down egyptian themes.

Particularly shitty part was that all those clawvipers, derpcats and other shits were apparently something normal and existing before any demonic infestation. Gee, that really helps establish the quasi-medieval europe/middle east atmosphere blizztard guys.
:roll:

Act 3 could be either cut entirely or moved to a proper Diablo analogue of Vatican. Act 4, hell, was nice, along with Pandemonium Fortress, but could use greater variety.

Were the open areas what killed D2 atmosphere?
Partially.

For starters, there should be no demonic or undead enemies outdoors. Cloaked humans serving the Three (possibly even ambiguously human enemies), maybe some wildife, occassional summoned demon or undead as a boss and that's it.
Actual demons and undead and other horrors should be confined to dungeons and all dungeons should be tied to your quest.

Then there should be some terrain diversity. Desert wasn't that bad but Act 1 was awful. Featureless green plain with occassional knee-high stone wall is neither conductive to the atmosphere nor the gameplay. Now if it was changed to mountain passes (as seen in early trailers), with, heh, blizzard, ambushes by cloaked figures, etc. it would be fucking brilliant.

Unfortunately blizztard chose to let us run around as Minsc-wannabe and shout at catgirls and walking trees instead.
:decline:

attackfighter said:
The biggest flaw in Diablo 1 is how the enemy archers endlessly kite you.
Given how happy players are to kite all kinds of shit there is only one fitting response here:

:troll:
U MAD?

Also, I prefer mobs that behave sensibly (like ranged attackers keeping distance) to ones that mindlessly let you convert them into loot and xp.
 

NewFag

Educated
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Nov 16, 2011
Messages
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I've played Diablo II a few years past its initial release due to the things I've heard. Found it excessively repetitive when it basically consisted of endless baal runs to level grind. Then more grind for equip. The most fun I got out of it was playing with a few IRL friends for a bit, but unless you're an antisocial douche, I find multiplayer (with actual friends) makes most turds more tolerable. After I got sick of that shit, I went through Diablo 1 as well. Completely different atmosphere and feel while playing. More cohesive, more focused, and less derpy. Still wasn't my cup of tea, so I rushed through it pretty quickly.
 

octavius

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NewFag said:
I've played Diablo II a few years past its initial release due to the things I've heard. Found it excessively repetitive when it basically consisted of endless baal runs to level grind.

Why? Did anyone force you to level grind???
 

CappenVarra

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attackfighter said:
CappenVarra said:
attackfighter said:
The biggest flaw in Diablo 1 is how the enemy archers endlessly kite you. Once you advance passed the skeleton tier of enemies (who don't kite) the game starts to become a real chore due to the kiting alone. It's still playable, though only once.
Archers kiting? You are aware of things such as corners and spells, right? Playable only once? I'm completely confused about which game you speak of :)

Spells aren't viable if you're a fighter, and I was speaking from the perspective of someone who did use corners (the kiting was still very annoying). Perhaps it is worth multiple playthroughs if you roll with a mage or thief-archer, but I haven't played them so I wouldn't know.
Well, it's been years, but I think I played through D1 singleplayer (no Hellfire for me) with a Warrior around... 8ish times in total? +2 multiplayer warriors (played alone as well, just for the higher difficulty). So I hope you understand my confusion. Then again, tastes differ and all that :)

EDIT: not to mention that warriors play much better with some spells on higher difficulties; hell, I remember stocking up on "of wizardry" items (+21-30 to magic) and hunting for those shrines that lower one spell 1 level (usually chain lightning) but raise all others by 1 level to get my highest level warrior to around 80% of spells maxed to level 15... shit, I was wasting a lot of time a decade ago :)
 

Castanova

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sea said:
Diablo II was largely an exercise in strategic use of town portals and drinking potions; Diablo was more concerned with endurance and how to tackle encounters themselves. It made more sense from a multiplayer and mass market standpoint to do what Diablo II did, but I don't really like it either way.

I'm not sure I agree. The combat in each game felt slightly different however I don't particularly recall Diablo being all that difficult. Perhaps if you got very unlucky with items? I was a much different gamer when Diablo 1 came out than I was when D2 came out and I remember beating D1 with no problems at all. D2 was also pretty easy except for cheap-shots like you mention.

sea said:
Second, there's loot.

Maybe there were (critical?) balancing issues but D2's loot was SIGNIFICANTLY more interesting. There were certain modifiers in Diablo that were clearly the best and the game boiled down to acquiring those as fast as possible -- "King's" weapons, if I remember correctly? And "Whale" armor? Anything else was less than optimal.

sea said:
Third, Diablo was focused.

This is a valid complaint although one I think is more subjective. Like FO vs FO2.

sea said:
Fourth, Diablo was about steady progression towards an objective, and not about grinding.

You don't need to grind in Diablo 2, either. The explosion of multiplayer popularity combined with the semi-cheat-proofing of Battle.net led to a grind-focused culture developing which was easy to be swept into (would you rather struggle through the game or join this power-level game that's going on?). The whole "resistances" accumulation thing had a barrier-to-entry feel to it, I agree, but I don't think it was a huge problem.

sea said:
The Chamber of Bone, the Butcher, King Leoric, the poisoned well, the Archbishop, and others all stood out because there were only a handful per play-through, and they were all distinctive. Diablo II tried to replace that feeling of hand-crafted encounters with boss monsters featuring X, Y and Z properties, rare items with 10 different effects, and so on... but it just could not compare to Diablo's more thoughtful approach.

I think this point is probably the one I most disagree with. If anything, Diablo 2 was clearly more memorable than Diablo. Including the expansion, there are 5 extremly distinct acts full of hand-designed areas and set pieces. Diablo 1 had memorable areas as well but mostly it was repetitive in terms of level and monster design.

Diablo 1, I remember the town, the inital dungeon, the Butcher, that lava-ish place, and I remember the chamber holding Diablo on the last level. Diablo 2, I remember every single area of the entire game, if I had to guess. I bet, post apocalypse, I could re-create Diablo 2, Fahrenheit 451 style.

sea said:
Sixth, and probably the weirdest complaint, is running.

I totally agree with you here. D3 doesn't have running but we'll see if that just means you can outrun everything in the game by default or if it's a return to D1-style risk management.
 
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D1 was an excellent game that really moved the genre forward and had excellent atmosphere, quests, difficulty, monsters, etc. Had D2 simply been another D1 expansion like Hellfire and added on 20 more levels with their own corresponding enemies I would have been ecstatic.

D2 was a huge decline. Incredibly easy (ridiculously so if you played multiplayer), enemies all banal shit boring things to be slogged through except for the 0.01% that instagib a character without a very specific defense. Locations all utter tripe except for Act 4 and a very small subset of other areas. Almost no memorable enemies I can think of, and only 2 memorable bosses (which are only so for the fact that they are part of the 0.01% enemies with instagib powers).

LoD was WoW beta version 0.2

I'm not sure I agree. The combat in each game felt slightly different however I don't particularly recall Diablo being all that difficult. Perhaps if you got very unlucky with items? I was a much different gamer when Diablo 1 came out than I was when D2 came out and I remember beating D1 with no problems at all. D2 was also pretty easy except for cheap-shots like you mention.

As sea says, the biggest problem is really running. In D1 if you bite off more than you can chew then you generally die instantly. OTOH there is exactly 1 encounter in D2 that you might have problems running away from, else a lvl 1 character could run straight through most areas because not a single enemy presents a threat to you unless you stop to fight them. There are other problems with monster balance in D2 being horrible (not that D1 was stellar or anything), but the fact that you can simply ignore and run around any enemy in the game that bothers you makes D2 a laughingstock. Imagine Fallout if you started every fight with the first action and had 20 move points to spend.

Maybe there were (critical?) balancing issues but D2's loot was SIGNIFICANTLY more interesting. There were certain modifiers in Diablo that were clearly the best and the game boiled down to acquiring those as fast as possible -- "King's" weapons, if I remember correctly? And "Whale" armor? Anything else was less than optimal.

D1 was a lot more restricted though. You might only find a single whale armor throughout the entire game. And it might be rags. Want whale rags or non-magic plate armor? Thats a large choice with a big effect on your character, compared to D2 where 95% of the time you were switching out an item that gave +50% damage to your build for another that gives +55%.

You don't need to grind in Diablo 2, either. The explosion of multiplayer popularity combined with the semi-cheat-proofing of Battle.net led to a grind-focused culture developing which was easy to be swept into (would you rather struggle through the game or join this power-level game that's going on?). The whole "resistances" accumulation thing had a barrier-to-entry feel to it, I agree, but I don't think it was a huge problem.

There wasn't anything to do but grind. In D1 you could survive really far outside your normal dungeon level by good play. In D2 you can still do that... but the barrier to entry isn't good play, its how much time you want to spend hitting a 100,000 HP boss with a 500 damage stick (and potentially going back to town to buy more pots every 30s) vs grinding for 10 levels and coming back to hit it with a 5,000 damage stick
 

DraQ

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Castanova said:
sea said:
Second, there's loot.

Maybe there were (critical?) balancing issues but D2's loot was SIGNIFICANTLY more interesting. There were certain modifiers in Diablo that were clearly the best and the game boiled down to acquiring those as fast as possible -- "King's" weapons, if I remember correctly? And "Whale" armor? Anything else was less than optimal.
OTOH there was much more loot dropping in D2, and even sets and uniques were designed to be superseded.

In D1 you were forced to work with whatever game generated for you in given playthrough, as your resources were finite. In D2 there is no persistency, so you can always expect to get desirable loot eventually, and you can simply visit poor ol' Diablo or Baal each time you're around and beat him 'till he gives up his stuff.

Yes, the item system itself was better in D2, especially with LoD, but it was extremely misused.

sea said:
The Chamber of Bone, the Butcher, King Leoric, the poisoned well, the Archbishop, and others all stood out because there were only a handful per play-through, and they were all distinctive. Diablo II tried to replace that feeling of hand-crafted encounters with boss monsters featuring X, Y and Z properties, rare items with 10 different effects, and so on... but it just could not compare to Diablo's more thoughtful approach.

I think this point is probably the one I most disagree with. If anything, Diablo 2 was clearly more memorable than Diablo. Including the expansion, there are 5 extremly distinct acts full of hand-designed areas and set pieces. Diablo 1 had memorable areas as well but mostly it was repetitive in terms of level and monster design.

Diablo 1, I remember the town, the inital dungeon, the Butcher, that lava-ish place, and I remember the chamber holding Diablo on the last level. Diablo 2, I remember every single area of the entire game, if I had to guess. I bet, post apocalypse, I could re-create Diablo 2, Fahrenheit 451 style.
Odd, because it's exactly the other way around for me.

There are parts of D2 I remember pretty well, but most of it is just an ocean of nondescript derp, which is a bad thing if one of its supposed advantages are handcrafted levels.

D1, OTOH I remember perfectly crisp, as much as it's possible for a game this randomized. Randomization was also nice because you never knew what quests will be present during any given playthrough.

sea said:
Sixth, and probably the weirdest complaint, is running.

I totally agree with you here. D3 doesn't have running but we'll see if that just means you can outrun everything in the game by default or if it's a return to D1-style risk management.
Running would actually be fine if most monsters were faster than you when walking, a good part comparably fast when sprinting, and if stamina was more limited and affected overall performance. Then it would a vital resource to manage, not a get-away-easily button.

Butcher, for example, was fearsome because he was so difficult to shake off, hit ard and could soak up insane amounts of damage.
Add "teehee me sprint awaaay!" option and he becomes lulz-worthy.
 

Cowboy Moment

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sea said:
Diablo, all the way. There are a few things that I think Diablo nailed and that the sequel lost, not because it was a badly made game, but because it lost sight of what made the original a success and chose to focus on the wrong elements in pimping out its "bigger and better" gameplay. As far as sequels go, it was exactly what it should have been, but that is also sort of the problem in itself.

First, there's the difficulty. Diablo is a reasonably difficult game, but it's difficult in a very measured sort of way. It punishes stupidity very very quickly (running into a pack of enemies vs. drawing them out and using choke points), and it always feels fair whether you win or lose. No random arrows and spells flying around to hit you as you run away, no cheapass bosses that require you to run in circles for a half-hour, no portaling back to town over and over to stock up on potions. Diablo II felt more geared towards online play due to the number of enemies, the cheap shots and random deaths increasing reliance on other players, and so on. It had less a "you died because you screwed up" feeling and more a "you died because the game wanted you to die" sentiment. That emphasis on absurdly difficult and bloated enemies also hurt things. Diablo II was largely an exercise in strategic use of town portals and drinking potions; Diablo was more concerned with endurance and how to tackle encounters themselves. It made more sense from a multiplayer and mass market standpoint to do what Diablo II did, but I don't really like it either way.

Second, there's loot. Most of your time in the original game was spent outfitted with normal items plus a few decent magical ones, if you can find them. Uniques were extremely rare, comparatively, but stood out as being not just more powerful, but also having upsides and downsides to them. Uniques felt like powerful, ancient artifacts with special properties to consider, with risk and reward, not just better versions of gear you could already find. Diablo II conflated the problem even more with set items, crafted items, runeword items, rare items... it got excessive and the boundaries between different tiers of loot broke down. In the original Diablo, you could find a good item early on and use it for the rest of the game; in Diablo II, loot was largely disposable outside of its online economy. Torchlight, Titan Quest, and Dungeon Siege all inherited the worst qualities of Diablo II's loot, showering the player with it and simultaneously making it almost entirely useless. Loot in RPGs should be about trade-offs, with occasional really cool items to spice things up, and not about selling junk to vendors so you can... uh... gamble it away on more junk?

Third, Diablo was focused. Though it had less variety in environments and enemies, those that were in the game felt like natural extensions of one another, progressing in severity and getting darker and darker with each level down the hatch. You had one central goal and everything in the game revolved around it. Side-quests were minimal and incidental, and not necessary to slog through before the game decided to open its doors to the next chapter, unlike Diablo II, where the game would present a bunch of "optional" quests per act only to reveal later on that they were all actually mandatory. Its grab-bag "world tour" of locations also felt forced to me. Diablo was a game about claustrophobic tunnels and dark depths, not about jungles and deserts. It had its moments (the Mayan-style tombs were great) but it tried too hard to impress.

Fourth, Diablo was about steady progression towards an objective, and not about grinding. Though there was leveling, spellcasting, new gear to find, and so on, it was all in service of the greater objective of winning the game. Harder difficulties and online play presented a greater challenge and required more metagame knowledge to succeed in, but even there the focus was largely on smart play rather than just maxing out your character or trying new builds. Diablo II turned that around and made its hard difficulties not so much more difficult as it did simply increase the barrier of entry. Want to play on the highest level? Be sure you've worked your way up to level 60 before even trying (the word "work" is very appropriate here), and you have to have X character build to stand a chance. I never found those levels difficult so much as just tedious and repetitive, a test of patience in grinding and not in ability.

Fifth, randomness with purpose. Diablo was heavily inspired by roguelike games and as such, reveled in its random selection of quests, items, and so on. Shrines could give permanent positive or negative bonuses, sometimes you'd find a boss and sometimes not, and sometimes you'd get a great item early on or sometimes you'd have to wait most of the game. This lack of predictability ensured a lot of interesting repeat play. However, that randomness was more articulate than just a series of modifiers selected from various loot and monster tables - the experience you were left with was specific enough that it was memorable. The Chamber of Bone, the Butcher, King Leoric, the poisoned well, the Archbishop, and others all stood out because there were only a handful per play-through, and they were all distinctive. Diablo II tried to replace that feeling of hand-crafted encounters with boss monsters featuring X, Y and Z properties, rare items with 10 different effects, and so on... but it just could not compare to Diablo's more thoughtful approach. It's the same issue that games like Daggerfall run into - huge game worlds with limitless potential, but nothing memorable or distinctive at all about them.

Sixth, and probably the weirdest complaint, is running. The ability to run, in Diablo II, was widely praised and Blizzard were congratulated by their fans for its inclusion, as it cut down tedium in getting place to pace. Personally, I think it undermined a lot of the balance in combat, and had additional effects on the gameplay that were for the worse. The fixed movement speed in Diablo meant that you had to be very careful about how you tackled a given situation, and ensured you were punished if you were stupid. In Diablo II, running completely changed how the game played. Instead of punishing you for bad play, it required you to simply retreat and hop through one of your infinitely-available town portals. Combat became less about tactical positioning and resource management, and more about kiting HP-bloated enemies and running circles around them while firing off abilities every few seconds, quaffing potions the whole time. Environments were larger to make up for the increased movement speed, often to their detriment, as it meant longer stretches of nothing to do or, worse, more repetitive enemies to grind through. This in turn led to more junk loot to sell, higher XP requirements to gain levels, and so on. It's one of those "it sounded good at the time" ideas, whose effects were felt throughout the game, and the rest of the mechanics weren't able to compensate effectively.

This isn't nostalgia, by the way. I only ever really played the original Diablo after I'd got my fill of Diablo II. I never missed the multiplayer duels, the boss grinding, the magic finding, and all those other rote, repetitive tasks that defined Diablo II. The expansion was also a lot of fun, but pushed things even more towards modern MMO design and multiplayer. Diablo II is, in many ways, still an excellent game, a genre-defining one, and the perfect sequel, in that it takes the distinctive elements of the original game and expands on them in interesting ways. At the same time, it also lacks that very same tight focus that made the original Diablo so good, its focus on multiplayer, repeated play, and impressive graphics ultimately undoing a lot of the first game's finer points.

:bro:

On a more general note, the first Diablo is, in a sense, the anti-Skyrim, in the sense that it demonstrates the value of simplicity and focus in game design. Because honestly, the gameplay isn't much to write home about, the character system consists of three adjustable stats with some secondaries thrown in, and the entirety of the gameworld consists of a small village, and a dungeon without that much variety. And with all that in mind, it's still great. I've been looking for a dungeon crawling fix recently, and ended up reinstalling Diablo (and also Din's Curse, which seems pretty cool so far), and wow, it's still as engaging as ever. Dat Tristram music...
 

Fatty

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Voted LoD. This was the game that forced me to ban myself from playing online games. It sucked my life away.

I've since tried other ARPG's (Sacred, Sacred 2, Torchlight, Titan Quest) and none of them captured "it". I'm not even sure what "it" is really, but LoD had "it".
 

Twinkle

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D1 was an excellent game that really moved the genre forward

:?

D1 had gore, tits, child killing, moody music and strong dark gothic atmosphere but beneath all that lied simplistic lowest common denominator clickfest. D2 was largely the same stuff minus atmosphere plus shitty grinding and MMOfication which made it vastly inferior as a single-player product.
 

Nukester

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I loved the original Diablo when it first came out and played the shit out of it, but only multiplayer. I never played it single player. From what I can remember, it may have been the first game that I played that had a chat feature to communicate with other players. After awhile though I spent more time fucking around with the PK'ers by having them join games and hiding on them behind one of the buildings. That was fun, but once everyone got the good loot and could spawn it, it all became very derp derp and I stopped playing.

Diablo II I just can not get into. However, quite the opposite of the original, I never played it multiplayer. I have a retail version of D2, but a not taken from inventory version of LoD, so I never bothered. Anyway, I fucking hate the outdoor areas, and thats what really kills it for me. Just lawnmowering around the outdoor areas making sure not to miss anything was just mindnumbingly boring. If it was all underground like D1 then I might have liked it more. And the Tetris inventory was beyond frustrating to me (yeah I know D1 had it also, but I hated it in that also). I guess those two reasons are why I put way more time into Torchlight than I did with D2.
 

Johnny the Mule

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Overweight Manatee said:
jlashgpo4k
wow
removed from nonretard list
added to dumbass list
i knew the assburger furry and fps-story-tldr-faggot are two imbecile morons but theyve got company
 

Bulba

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Nukester said:
Just lawnmowering around the outdoor areas making sure not to miss anything was just mindnumbingly boring. If it was all underground like D1 then I might have liked it more. And the Tetris inventory was beyond frustrating to me (yeah I know D1 had it also, but I hated it in that also). I guess those two reasons are why I put way more time into Torchlight than I did with D2.

Lawnmowering? in D2? WAF? there was nothing to miss - if you felt you are strong enough than just run along to the next region/dungeon/boss whatever.

Personally I have never been able to find mystic "whale armor" in D1 or something called "king's weapons". From what I heard "whale armor" is just a cheat.
 

Jaesun

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Johnny the Mule said:
Overweight Manatee said:
jlashgpo4k
wow
removed from nonretard list
added to dumbass list
i knew the assburger furry and fps-story-tldr-faggot are two imbecile morons but theyve got company

Keep your shit in GD.
 

Nukester

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Bulba said:
Lawnmowering? in D2? WAF? there was nothing to miss - if you felt you are strong enough than just run along to the next region/dungeon/boss whatever.

Thats the completionist in me. Yeah I could just run from one section to another, but thats not very fun either. But walking through an area and getting swarmed from all side was borning as hell
 
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Twinkle said:
D1 was an excellent game that really moved the genre forward

:?

D1 had gore, tits, child killing, moody music and strong dark gothic atmosphere but beneath all that lied simplistic lowest common denominator clickfest. D2 was largely the same stuff minus atmosphere plus shitty grinding and MMOfication which made it vastly inferior as a single-player product.

If there is another "clickfest" game with the same level of atmosphere and foreboding then please tell me about it.

Probably a mistake to say it moved the genre forward though, seeing as how few games copied it (opting instead to copy D2's MOARBOSSFARMING). Certainly didn't mean to imply that it moved the RPG genre forward (why is this thread not in GG?)

Johnny the Mule said:
Overweight Manatee said:
jlashgpo4k
wow
removed from nonretard list
added to dumbass list
i knew the assburger furry and fps-story-tldr-faggot are two imbecile morons but theyve got company

And not a fuck was given.
 

NewFag

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octavius said:
NewFag said:
I've played Diablo II a few years past its initial release due to the things I've heard. Found it excessively repetitive when it basically consisted of endless baal runs to level grind.

Why? Did anyone force you to level grind???

Oh shit, I realize the ambiguity I left there. What I meant was I only got around to playing it during the late 2000s, (2008 to be exact), years after it's initial 2000 release. Actual playing time was under a month, with several friends. Which basically did result in endless Baal runs.
 

Gregz

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Bulba said:
Personally I have never been able to find mystic "whale armor" in D1 or something called "king's weapons". From what I heard "whale armor" is just a cheat.

There's a popular D1 mod that includes more powerful items like the kings weapons, ring of the zodiac, etc., I forget what's it's called.
 

Twinkle

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If there is another "clickfest" game with the same level of atmosphere and foreboding then please tell me about it.

Huh, that's where D1 is way ahead of the competition, without doubt. And the games inspired by the original Diablo tended to try integrating something new to the formula (Revenant, Nox, Divinity 1) compared to derivative trash that attempted to cash in on DII's popularity.
 

DemonKing

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D1 had quicksaving, D2 had save points threfore D1 wins, D2 declines.
 

Zomg

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I never played D2. After I'd played D1 to the point where I was sick of it (I think I probably did one run of the hardest difficulty?) I was like, "Well I'll never play that kind of thing again!" and then I never did right up through several thousand Diablo clones and tangential spiritual descendants like DotA. Apparently other people have got a bottomless stomach for it.
 

hakuroshi

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Diablo. It was a nice game. Quit Diablo 2 after the first chapter.
I've done only singleplayer, it might be different in multiplayer.
 

CappenVarra

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Not that the thread needs it, but I remembered a few more things... Azrael impersonation incoming, paragraph breaks deleted ;)

Shrines in general. In D1, they had interesting (and sometimes permanent) effects, mixing good and bad ones. Clicking on a random shrine without knowing what it does (or clicking a cauldron) was generally a bad idea (in multiplayer, singleplayer obviously had save/load, but even then you had to know what happened based on the cryptic message shown), because you could permanently lose mana points etc. There were some cosmetic ones, but even they were nice - like Eldritch shrine turning all your potions into Rejuvenation potions, or that one that fires a nova at your ass and tells you to get lost. Anyone remember finding a Thinking Cap, and then having to find a Hidden shrine to permanently increase its durability (at the cost of another item) so you could actually use it (because it had 1 durability by default, and would get destroyed permanently as soon it got damaged at all otherwise)? Or as I mentioned already, to access spell levels normally unavailable to a Warrior? D2 shrines? Either generate useless items (Poison shrine wtf?), provide a short-term buff, or upgrade a monster to a fatter loot bag - no permanent effects, no trade-offs whatsoever, slight-to-nonexistent consequences for just mindlessly clicking any shrine you come upon. Gone were the "larpy" names and cryptic messages, replaced with Obvious Labels of Obviousness. Not to mention that one of the buffs was a XP gain buff, which is just lazy MMO-ish meta crap. Just like Magic Find on D2 items - instead of using items to increase monster killing capacity, it makes a character kill monsters slower but pushes the OCD addiction button of "dropping shinier loot" - it makes sense in an MMO (where the company wants you to play longer), but what the hell is it doing in a "buy once, play as much as you want" game? Or stats like "increase maximum resistances" - I'm not a fan. As somebody mentioned, D1 loot had a clear item progression and it was easy to say what is better. Finding it was another matter completely. Yes, a bastard sword "King's Sword of Haste" was the best weapon for a Warrior, but good luck finding one with the randomization (I knew one guy who found one of them once...) And guess what? That best killing machine weapon ever? It lost durability so fast you wouldn't believe it, and cost a crapload of gold to repair - it was easy to go completely broke (and have to use a backup weapon on easier levels just to make the gold to repair it and go back to the harder monsters). Yes, Wirt usually had the really insane item modifiers in his shop, but that's why he only ever had one item at a time. And even when you got the highly desired modifiers, they would be on low-tier items and completely useless. But you were also screwed if you got them on a too good of a base item - because they could easily cost more gold than could fit in your inventory. No, really. Armor? You generally wanted "Awesome plate of X" (+130-150% armor), but those cost a lot and getting one with a good base armor took time. Sure, there was "Godly" armor (+150-200% armor), but it was completely impractical and nobody used it - because you could only get it on rags or it would cost too much. of the Whale? Nobody used that, for the same reason. D2? Infinite gold in a stash, a million different base items, even more modifiers and meta-stats... It just got watered down. (and the sprites man, the gorgeous D1 item sprites were gone). Character classes? D1 had the very basics: a fighter, a thief, a mage. D2 had "cool" fancy classes - a "good" necromancer, amazons, druids... hell, even the barbarians used face-palmy abilities like "shout really loud and gain +100% to defense". The gloomy and simple dungeon crawl with the most classic archetypes was replaced with "everything and the kitchen sink" taken from completely unrelated mythologies and contexts. Shit, I could go on :)

Btw, attackfighter, perhaps you were using a weapon with knockback (like the Butcher's cleaver, anything "of the Bear")? Really a bad idea with archers, and generally unnecessary in melee as well. You also might want to look into attack speed and monster hit recovery times, if it ever crosses your mind again :)

EDIT: To be fair, D1 also had insta-trouble monsters that were hated more than Diablo himself: poison spitters. Running into a pack of those with the boss? You better have "of Harmony" gear giving you fastest hit recovery, or things will get... interesting fast.

EDIT2: Also, I second moving the thread to GG; but if we are to be logical about it, Skyrim threads should be moved too. If not, might as well leave Diablo in RPG Discussion :whistle:
 

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